Spain vs Britain

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Pro-Consul, Jul 4, 2013.

  1. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The waters around Gibraltar are Gibraltarean waters. It's as entitled as anyone else is to have its own Exclusive Economic Zone. Belive it or not, because of its many overseas territories, the UK has the world's fifth largest Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), and that does NOT include the UK's British Antarctic Territory EEZ. One of those British territories with its own EEZ is Gibraltar, and it is perfectly entitled under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) to have it.

    The problem with Spain is that its large fishing fleet - funded by the EU, the same EU which has destroyed the British fishing industry - does hardly any of its fishing inside its own EEZ. It fishes in other people's. It fishes a lot in British waters - the richest fishing grounds in Europe - and even as far away as Canada. It should restrict fishing inside its OWN waters instead of venturing into foreign fishing grounds and then it wouldn't complain when foreign governments install reefs inside their OWN waters - which they are perfectly at rights to do and which the Spanish do themselves in their own waters.

    The Gibraltarean government can do what it likes in Gibraltarean waters. It's got nothing to do with Spain.

    And Spain's got a cheek in complaining about this reef. It affects just ONE Spanish fishing vessel which is fishing illegally anyway.

    Why can't the Spanish stick to fishing in their OWN waters?

    And how is that different to the Gibraltareans building a reef in Gibraltarean waters? Hypocrite.

    Raking the seabed for shellfish in British waters is illegal under Gibraltar's nature protection laws. Yet a Spanish fishing vessel is doing just that in Gibraltarean waters, and then Spain has the cheek to complain when the new Gibraltarean reef disrupts that illegal fishing.

    Regards[/QUOTE]

    Gibraltar is not removing the reef. It's staying put. I don't see why Gibraltar should remove a reef just because (supposedly) it's disrupting illegal Spanish fishing activities in Gibraltarean waters.
     
  2. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Spanish fisheries chart steers clear of British waters

    by Brian Reyes

    [​IMG]

    A screen shot of the Junta de Andalucia website showing Spanish designated shellfish fisheries near Gibraltar in red and green. None of them overlap into British Gibraltar territorial waters. The artificial reef at the heart of the current dispute with Spain is outside the nearest fishery, known in Spanish as a ‘caladero’. Under Spanish law, commercial fishing can only be conducted in such areas.

    Maps freely available on the Junta de Andalucia’s official website show that shellfish fisheries designated by Spain in the Bay of Gibraltar clearly respect the boundaries of British Gibraltar territorial waters.

    The fisheries, known as ‘caladeros’ in Spanish, are the only zones where Spain allows commercial fishing but stop clear of British waters.

    The revelation will cast doubt on Spain’s claim that it is acting to protect the interests of Spanish fishermen in the current dispute.

    When the Gibraltar Government created an artificial reef off the runway a fortnight ago, Spain complained that the 70 concrete blocks had destroyed a traditional Spanish shellfish fishing ground.

    But although at least one Spanish trawler routinely raked the area for clams (which is an illegal fishing method in British Gibraltarean waters anyway), the site of the reef in British waters is well outside the nearest fishery designated by the Junta de Andalucia.

    Gibraltar and the UK have maintained throughout that Spanish actions at the border and in other spheres are motivated less by fishing than by politics and the underlying sovereignty claim.

    Raking the seabed for shellfish in British waters is illegal under Gibraltar’s nature protection laws.

    BOUNDARY LINES

    The maps on the Junta website show that the nearest designated Spanish shellfish fishery ends north of the port of La Linea breakwater.

    By contrast, the Gibraltar reef is inside British waters south of that same breakwater.

    Spain does not recognise British jurisdiction of that area of sea but even so has not designated the site of the reef for commercial fishing.

    Under Spanish law, fishing is only allowed within designated ‘caladeros’. That means that even if this was a stretch of Spanish sea, commercial fishing would not be allowed there.

    In fact the nearest designated Spanish fishery in the Bay of Gibraltar, known by the Junta as Bahía de Algeciras II, ends on the northern boundary of the area of sea claimed by Britain.

    The same is true on the east side of the Rock, where the shellfish fisheries designated by Spain end north of the runway on the edge of British waters.

    In other words, irrespective of jurisdiction, there are no designated Spanish shellfish fisheries in British Gibraltar territorial waters.

    That means that Spanish fisherman cannot legally rake for clams in these waters, whether under Gibraltar law – which applies – or Spanish law, which does not.

    http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=30462
     
  3. martin76

    martin76 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Pro-consul

    Thanks for information.

    This is the Link: http://books.google.es/books?id=Fbh...v=onepage&q=tratado de versalles 1783&f=false

    The Versailles Treaty was written in French. I´ve found in French and Spanish. You can read:

    Don Carlos, por la gracia de Dios, Rey de Castilla, de Leon, de Aragon, de las Dos Sicilias...... de Algeciras, de Gibraltar....

    The king of Gibraltar was a tittle belonged to a Moorish king.. When the spaniards conquested Gibraltar (1462) the title was transmitted to the Castilla´s Crown...

    As Utrecht didn´t give the sovereignty to Great Britain.. the tittle continued in Spanish Crown. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Gibraltar

    Never the British monarchs used that title...strengthen Article X of Utrecht: Spain gave the possesion, the Utis possidetis.

    In a International Court, in UK wouldn´t be interested to study the treaty of Utrecht, I think.
     
  4. martin76

    martin76 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sixteen String Jack

    It´s absolutely impossible for a non-sovereign entity to have sovereign waters... and nobody can´t show the right title where the Catholick King gave something more than Utis Possidetis... the posession. But let us be a practical solution...Believe us in Santa Claus and imagine, by a moment, that Spain (for the first time in history, recognizes British sovereignty over Gibraltar and not only the possesion established in Utrecht and signatured by Great Britain)...in that case would exist british waters in Gibraltar...Also It can be a solution to the conflict... But but in no case where it ha been throw the blocks (Spanish waters by all treaties) ... in the so-called neutral zone: occupied by GB between 1854 and 1938.

    A british map from 1930? I´ve drawn a X to show where Gibraltar has thrown the blocks.

    Gibralter_mapa.jpg

    By the way, you´re very wrong about Spanish Fishery fleet...It wasn´t created by EU... In fact It´s always one of the bigger fisher´s fleet in the world... Spanish fishers worked in Newfoundland since XV century

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Banks_of_Newfoundland

    http://dspace.usc.es/bitstream/10347/2263/1/9788497508162_content.pdf (Spanish fishery in New Founland from XVI Century) The Spanish coldfish industry came from Medieval Age...(Nothing to do with European Union)...Spanish fishing fleet was in North Atlantic from XVI Century... many years ago... really.. In Terranova, the spanish whalers (basques) killed about 400 whales by year between 1550 to 1570...

    EU has reduced the Spainsh fishery Fleet (3rd in the World before to be member in that bureaucratic institution).

    I think block will be removed. Nobody can unilaterally act, much less in waters that don´t belong to GB nor by Utrecht nor by any treaty .. because the blocks have been thrown in the neutral zone.

    Regards
     
  5. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Gibraltar is part of the United Kingdom. Unlike other British Overseas Territories, it's also part of the EU. The United Kingdom and Gibraltar are, in fact, one and the same EU Member State. Gibraltar is perfectly entitled to have an EEZ, and there's nothing Spain can do about it.

    The only reason Article X didn't give sovereign waters to Gibraltar was because that concept didn't even exist at the time - it was nothing to do with its sovereignty - so your argument could be used for ANY country's sovereign waters today.

    By the first half of the 18th century, the concept of the 3-nautical-mile (5.6 km)-wide sovereign territorial sea emerged and was eventually adopted by most countries as the basis of marine jurisdiction, until the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea 1982, which entered into force in 1995, set a new standard of 12 nautical miles (22 km). British Gibraltar Territorial Waters currently extend up to 3 nautical miles. Spain included a declaration, the content of which was rejected by the UK. The then Chief Minister of Gibraltar, Peter Caruana noted that "Spain subscribed to that treaty, making no reservation whatsoever in relation to the Gibraltar question. International law makes Spain's denial of territorial waters in Gibraltar completely unsustainable in law."

    The Spanish statement upon ratification of the Convention was:

    2. In ratifying the Convention, Spain wishes to make it known that this act cannot be construed as recognition of any rights or status regarding the maritime space of Gibraltar that are not included in article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht of 13 July 1713 concluded between the Crowns of Spain and Great Britain. Furthermore, Spain does not consider that Resolution III of the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea is applicable to the colony of Gibraltar, which is subject to a process of decolonization in which only relevant resolutions adopted by the United Nations General Assembly are applicable.

    The British statement upon ratification of the Convention was:

    With regard to point 2 of the declaration made upon ratification of the Convention by the Government of Spain, the Government of the United Kingdom has no doubt about the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over Gibraltar, including its territorial waters. The Government of the United Kingdom, as the administering authority of Gibraltar, has extended the United Kingdom's accession to the Convention and ratification of the Agreement to Gibraltar. The Government of the United Kingdom, therefore, rejects as unfounded point 2 of the Spanish declaration.


    British waters exist around Gibraltar. UNCLOS has seen to that. The Treaty of Utrecht has nothing to do with it.

    Gibraltar's reef is in Gibraltarean waters.

    [​IMG]

    The EU - which pays for many Spanish things - has thrown money at the Spanish fishing fleet, enabling it to grow in size and then to go taking fish from other people's waters, such as British waters, the richest fishing grounds in Europe (no wonder the EU doesn't want Britain to leave the EU. That would mean that Spanish and other EU vessels wouldn't be able to fish in Britain's rich fishing waters anymore).

    It was also the EU which paid for the reefs in Spanish waters (the Spanish don't like paying for things themselves and fishing in their own waters) - whereas Gibraltar paid for its reef.
     
  6. martin76

    martin76 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Gibraltar is a Queen´s ownership...Utrecht 1713, TWhat you write It´s not based on any document. And yes, the concept of jurisdiction (It was denied by Utrecht to the British Queen) and property existed in the eighteenth century and much earlier.

    Not, Airport and blocks are in Neutral Zone... not even in land yielded by Utrecht. There aren´t British waters in Gibraltar but if it had british waters in Gibraltar, It wouldn´t be in the area blocks have been thrown because they are in the neutral zone (where airport was built in 1938). The blocks ought to be removed. Nobody can do a fait accompli politic and unilateral actions...

    The Treaty of Utrecht has nothing to do with it.

    Utrecht is the only reason because UK is in Gibraltar.. So Utrecht is very important...

    About Law of Sea, we can see the differences between Spain and the UK. Each country has a different view and therefore the whole issue should be debated in international forums .. Gibraltar can not unilaterally change the previous status quo.

    Everybody can see in your image the blocks are in the neutral zone as shown the twentieth century British maps

    he EU - which pays for many Spanish things - has thrown money at the Spanish fishing fleet, enabling it to grow in size and then to go taking fish from other people's waters, such as British waters


    No. The EU pays to reduce the Spanish fleet. The money was to break up the ships.. for that, the Spanish fleet 2013 is lesser than in 1960.
    By the way, the fishing Fleet fished in North Atlantic from 600 years ago. Not from 1986...And, not only british waters, but international, Norwegian, Icelandic, irish, brazilian, namibian.. and around the world, because Spanish Fleet fishes in all the world. And not from now... of course.

    While Spain has always been dedicated to fishing, the British have never been so interested. The Spanish are the second largest consumers of fish per year in the world (First Japan, second Spain).

    As I wrote, The blocks should be removed from the water and everything will return as before.Things can be solved very quickly .. or may be complicated too .. It depends on the goodwill ..

    By the way... Spain always paid all what was built.... I don´t know.. maybe the history of GB begun in 1973 with EU... I assure you that the history of Spain began many centuries before 1986... and yes, many centuries before 1986 in Spain were built reefs.
    On the other hand, Gibraltar pay nothing. It´s a Mafia emporium (latin) for drug, money laundering and smuggling...And now, it wants to expand at Spain´s expense. I hope it doesn´t succeed.

    Regards.

    Or signature or don´t signature, but if you signatures.. Keep on it!
     
  7. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2012
    Messages:
    1,965
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I've found that part.
    It also lists Jerusalem in the King of Spain's title.

    But as it does list Gibraltar in his title then why was it not transferred back to Spain?


    That's not entirely true of the UK. Obviously the UK's fishing industry has shrunk within the last 50 plus years but it was very strong and competitive in earlier history.
    I can't give dates as I'm not that au fait with it.
    Unfortunately the blocks are not the only issue. Although it is the only issue on the table right now.
    Fairly recently there were incursions a flight of Spanish warplanes and the discharge of a weapon on a British jet-skier by the Guardia Civil.

    In my view it shows how reckless the Spanish government is willing to be regarding Gibraltar for whatever motives.

    Just to clarify are you talking about Britain's history with the EU? Because if it's an attempt at belittlement regarding British history. Then it is something I take umbrage to.

    We use the same word (Emporium) Well if there is a significant criminal presence then I'm certain that it's not being facilitated by Gibraltar's government.
     
  8. highlander

    highlander Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
  9. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
  10. martin76

    martin76 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi, Pro Consul wrote:

    Yes. Charles de Anjou, an angevine king bought the title to Mary of Antiochia... from that time (1277) the title of King of Jersualem was united to King of Naples. When the spaniards conquested the Kingdom of Naples (Alphonsus V of Aragon) the title of King of Jerusalen was transfered to the Crown of Aragon... that because Spanish monarchs are Kings of Jersualem from XV century.
    The Kingdom of Gibraltar is a title in Spanish Crown from XV century.

    Because GB refused in Versailles and had the support of France. In any case nobody recognized the british sovereignty in that treaty... from the eighteenth century mindset Gibraltar had been taken by treachery and It was impossible to yield the sovereignty rights...That was the great difference with Jamaica (Madrid, 1670).

    Thanks for information.. It´s always good the day I can learn something new.

    .

    The issue is the right of fishing in the waters.. Only few people are interested in the Rock. I think it could recognize British sovereignty and territorial waters in exchange for the evacuation of the neutral zone, for example.There are not incursions...Newspapes always lie.. in every place in every time.

    No, Pro-Consul, I was intended to be ironic, not with you, but wiht person who has little knowledge, who know nothing about Spain and nothing of his own country´s history. .It´s not necessary to be Herodotus to know every country has received funds...I wouldn´t have to remember the USA finnancial assistance to Great Britain in 4 times in XX century, between 1915 to 1951...and certainly I don´t say Britons don´t like to pay what they build.. but paid by USA...Everybody give money to everybody.. EU to Spain, USA to GB, Spain to USA etc etc..Who do you think gave financial assistance to american revolutionaries? Or Why do you think nowadays USA use a Spanish symbol for their dollars? $ is a Spanish mark for the Catholick King´s Gold and Spanish Pesos.

    I think it´s facilitated by Gibraltar local authorities with the British government indifference.

    Hello Highlander:

    Who broke the Status Quo?... It´s not Spain who broke it, throwing 70 concretes blocks into the waters. The responsible is the local authorities in Gibraltar, backed by British government .

    Finally, the disrespectful sixteen string jack

    If you like to see the Third World, I suggest a visit to a British Public Hospital... It is a living monument to the Third World. And i won´t say, for respect to many educated britons, which´s the technical knowledge in the staff of these hospitals (I don´t speak about private ones because I dont´know)...and the absolutly (de)motivation in staff..

    And a surprise for you: , many universities, fortress, cathedrals, churches, brigdes,cities, reefs in the world, were built with Spanish money...nor with EU Funds...
    An example? Fuerte Jesus, in Mombassa, Kenya... built by spaniards in the late XVI century... And I know for you It´d be incredible, unbelievable, but the Fort built by Catholic King in Mombassa...was not funded by EU.

    http://www.africanmeccasafaris.com/kenya/mombasa/excursions/fortjesus.asp

    Regards.
     
  11. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Spain broke the status quo when it started needlessly stopping people for too long at the Gibraltar-Spain border. That's what started the proceedings.

    As for the reef, that's every right to be there. It's in GIBRALTAREAN waters and, as far as I'm concerned, Spain can get stuffed. What the Gibraltareans do in their waters has nothing to do with Spain. Gibraltar will continue to do what it likes in its own waters, whether Spain likes it or not. If Spain dislikes artificial reefs so much it can get rid of the hundreds it has placed along its own coast.

    And Britain won't tolerate Spanish police and military vessels shooting at innocent British civilians in British waters for much longer. If it continues there'll be grave consequences for Spain.

    If I wanted to go to a Third World economy I'd go to Spain. How Spain managed to pay £85 million for Gareth Bale is a mystery. With its 18.7% unemployment and 37% youth unemployment Spain's economy is WORSE than many Third World countries.

    And it's Spain's economy which is the reason why it's sabre-rattling over Gibraltar. Just like thet other failed state Argentina, on the common occasion that its economy goes tits up Spain starts demanding that Britain hangs over a piece of land which is rightfully Britain's just to distract its people from their economic woes.
     
  12. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What's the legal position?

    SPAIN

    Spain believes Gibraltar was taken in the context of a Spanish dynastic dispute and contests UK sovereignty over the entire peninsula. It also insists the cession in the Treaty of Utrecht 1713 did not include the isthmus with the airport on it and territorial waters.

    Spain cites the UN principle of territorial integrity, through UN Resolution 1514 (XV) - which says "any attempt at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations".

    It also argues two resolutions passed in the 1960s under the UN Principles of Decolonisation - (2231 (XXI), Question of Gibraltar and 2353 (XXII), Question of Gibraltar), mean territorial integrity takes precedence over Gibraltar's right to self-determination.

    BRITAIN

    The UK notes that Gibraltar was ceded by Spain in the Treaty of Utrecht 1713, giving "the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts there unto belonging... forever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever".

    It cites longevity of occupation (Gibraltar has been British for longer than it had been Spanish), and argues the UN principle of territorial integrity, as per UN Resolution 1514 (XV) does not override the principle of self-determination. The same resolution says: "All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status."

    "Gibraltar is much bigger than it was in 1713 - some of the runway and housing on the west side is built on reclaimed land, and the Treaty says nothing about reclaimed land, or territorial waters," says Dr Chris Grocott, lecturer in economic history at Leicester University.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23617910
     
  13. highlander

    highlander Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Perhaps if one removed ones head from ones rectum, one might be able to open ones eyes.

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  14. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2012
    Messages:
    1,965
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Interesting bit about the transfer of titles by the way.

    Ok. I think that there is very little doubt that the rock is British but the waters are disputed.
    Now legally I think that this is something that is hard to prove to the favour of either side.

    You're welcome


    I'm willing to cast some doubt as to the violation by the warplanes but the "shooting" incident with the Guardia Civil is something that I think did occur.
    Yes most newspapers are not 100% accurate but even a poorly written paper such as the Daily mail which I quoted in the beginning of this topic can present events with no less accuracy than other papers.

    If it were up to me then I would propose joint usage of the waters in question with a stipulation that no agent of the state nor military personnel may enter.
    But that would be contingent upon Spain easing it's current stance.

    Ok. I was making sure as I do realise that English is not your first language.

    Do you have anything that might substantiate that train of thought?
    Well there's little doubt that the NHS has seen better days. But it is fixable with competent leadership and organization.
    Generally speaking British educated doctors are quite good but the strain from the rise in population and EU immigration has meant that we've had to hire non-British doctors who don't always have an equal education.

    Like I said the problem does stem from organization.

    I don't think that's necessary. There are other ways of expressing displeasure without being rude.
     
  15. Sab

    Sab Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,414
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    What UK mercenaries? Why are you always lying?
     
  16. highlander

    highlander Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/us-and-uk-mercenaries-in-syria-killing.html
    http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/08/16/british-mercenaries-fighting-in-syria/

    http://www.sott.net/article/242134-Thousands-of-Western-mercenaries-invade-Syria

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/wester...the-ranks-of-al-qaeda-rebels-in-syria/5336043

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/05/09/302588/ploy/

    That is without even trying, I won't mention sas or sbs who have been in Syria for a few years.

    Better being mugged than being a mug.

    Tory, meaning: highway robber. It's all in the words, even an idiot would get it.

    Highlander
     
  17. Sab

    Sab Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,414
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    So you use Press TV the mouthpeice of the Iranian government as your source? the aangirfan link is for a report by the Syrian government

    Sottnet uses Russia Today and Global research news is an arm of press TV

    So your claims are all just based on propaganda outlets from Syria and its allies in iran and Russia. Not a single objective report amongst them.

    You really are a nasty little fascist.
     
  18. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    To say that the Gibraltareans are the ones who started all this silly nonsense from Spain is completely and utterly ludicrous and offensive.

    For a long time now the Spanish have, for example, been entering Gibraltarean waters - waters which Gibraltar is entitled to under UNCLOS - and firing at unarmed innocent British civilians. This is an absolute disgrace and nobody is to blame but Spain. There'll be dire consequences for Spain if it continues. Britain can only put up with a foreign power shooting at innocent British civilians in their own waters for so long.

    Spain is in the wrong here and needs to stop it.
     
  19. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Why should the Gibraltareans accept joint usage of their waters by both Gibraltar and Spain? No other country would accept that silliness and neither should Gibraltar. Those waters are staying Gibraltarean. Spain will stop sabre-rattling soon - either when it sees sense or Britain makes it.
     
  20. highlander

    highlander Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Fascism is what our parents or grandparents fought to give us freedom, you my friend don't realise it, but you sold them out.
    Have you ever heard of clement Attlee now he was a a knight in shining armour.
    Churchill a reprobate, a disgusting pig, and a Tory through and through.
    But I digress, may I be so bold and point out, I only took the first few, you can go to the guardian etc, and they too will enlighten your bias.
    Regards
    Highlander
     
  21. highlander

    highlander Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Come on, we aren't children, grown ups talk, children react, they know no better, lack of parental control, what you are talking about is bullying.
    Regards
    Highlander
     
  22. Sab

    Sab Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,414
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Then link to the Guardian . if you expect me to find it myself then you clearly are a fascist and liar because no such report exists. It is a common tactic of liars to refuse to rpovide links then demand the other person finds them for themselves.
     
  23. martin76

    martin76 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Pro consul

    The problem is to distinguish the truth from falsehood. According to Guardia Civil´s official reports, the only violence has been the attack on agents by a gibraltarian driver and the throwing of stones ..
    I don´t like newspapers although I know that intelligence services use the newspaper both to obtain some sort of information and to intoxicate. Distinguish truth from lie is not so easy

    I think like you. To come bak to the former Status Quo and the crisis will be over. But I´m afraid the Gibraltar authorities don´t want that solution, because they aim to land reclamation for their resorts projects.

    The fact that UK has the means to investigate and prevent it

    I don´t doubt the doctors´skills, I was referring more to health workers (nurses etc) ... some of them, I think (I saw better to said) very limited technical competences or absolute demotivation.I know that education in Britain is terrible, but not as bad as in Spain (to the service of a political oligarchy)

    Regards
     
  24. martin76

    martin76 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Saab

    I don´t understand the relation between mercenaries in Syria with this post.

    Here you can find about foreing mercenarie in Syria…as maximun 600 british mercenaries..

    http://www.fssb.su/research/research-reviews/428-inostrannye-naemniki-v-sirii.html

    Dear Sixteen,

    No, Gibraltar broke the Status Quo when threw 70 concretes blocks into water ... As reaction Spain put control in the bars.

    It not Gibraltar's Waters ... and you know. I show a British map from 1930 .. the blocks are in the named Neutral zone ... Although if one day Gibraltar had territorial waters, never would be in waters in the Neutral Zone. Blocks must be removed, Mr Sixteen.

    First, you should read some book ... nor Britain nor Spain admit threats ... I advise patience and calm. While there is no agreement, the Spaniards continue penetrating daily in these waters (today, tomorrow, next week, next year, the next decade...) ... so much patience.
    By other way, , nobody has shot anyone .. well yes, the Royal Navy shot the Spanish flag in 2006, and a settler from Gibraltar hit with his car to a policeman the other day .. for now by the Spanish side has never been violence .
    About the serious consequences ... Do you really think that the threats will influence Spaniards? I think, sir, you don´t know them.

    I´m not interested in Football... but I must remember Spaniards not only have the best teams (Real Madrid and FC Barcelona, more victories than any other team in the world) also the best national team (Tiqui Taca), the second best basketball team (USA and Spain), the best drivers in motorcycling (more victories than United Kingdom for example, yes Spain has overmatches to UK in victories in motorcycling GP: Mike Hailwood, Surtee, etc), one of the best drivers in Formula One (Fernando Alonso)... world champion in Handball, one of the best tennis player (Nadal), and one of the best tennis team (Davis Cup)... etc etc The second bank in UK is Spanish, (Santander).. and Spaniards controlled the British Airports (Ferrovial):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovial#Ownership

    Spaniard is the richest man in Europe and third in the world..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amancio_Ortega

    It not a russian oligarch but a spanish entrepreneur

    A Spanish textil Group is the most important in the world

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inditex

    You can read: the Spanish multinationl is “Today Inditex is the biggest fashion group in the world.”...

    spanish railways are expanded by the world... Spaniards are building the AVE (High Velocity) railways between Medina and Mecca

    REPSOL is a Spanish company. It is the 15th largest petroleum refining company (and the best motorcycling team in history of GP motorycling)

    Wrong. No, it is the reason because Gibraltar has broken the Status Quo...

    What a funny “failed state”... Spain was the first, last and only case in the history of mankind which he defeated Islam .. after a deep islamization, the only erased all Islamization... the only country that ceased to be Islamic... nor in Israel nor in Balkan, nor in Caucasus happened nothing similar. The one country that successfully opposed the Jihad, the Christian Holy War. Subsequently established the Spanish hegemony in Europe.. held off the Turks and submitted to the Barbary pirates, defeated Napoleon ... discovered America, the Pacific, Oceania, reached Australia and New Zealand, conquered Cambodia, the Solomon Islands and went into Borneo and Indochine ... had an empire where the sun never set.
    For nearly 250 years fought tirelessly with British, Dutch, German Protestants, French, Chinese and Piamonte ... defended Catholicism worldwide (Ireland, among other places). Build the only World Empire (together the British one) truly universal, spread to all latitudes of the earth, from Alaska to Taiwan ... was the only empire victoriously resisted British (both French and Dutch empires fell into British hands, Portuguese was an ally), to the point that is the only Empire to be compared with the British (JH Elliott, Empires of the Atlantic World: Britain and Spain in America, 1492-1830), Lords of the World: Ideologies of Empire in Spain, Britain and France.

    Spain organized the first modern State: the world's oldest diplomatic corps, the world's oldest police, the first professional army in history ... and finally, with Britain the only country that created a number of countries that have their culture ...its roots.
    Spain spread the catholicism by the World, from Philippines to Marianas, Carolines, Marshall etc. their kings ruled Calcutta and Bombay, Goa and Ormutz, Mombassa and Guinea. it established the Spanish Protocol (unique in the world together the french one)....

    Not bad for a "failed stated"... Right?

    Remember: Books DON´T bite.

    Regards.
     
  25. Sab

    Sab Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,414
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    The Nurses have limited technical competence? What a load of unmitigated bull(*)(*)(*)(*). We have extremely rigourous licensing.
     

Share This Page