Ted Kennedy Created This Immigration Mess.

Just wished that the Democrats had some balls and would have done what the Republicans did back in 1974 when they urged Richard Nixon to resign for the good of the country.

 

That is a wish I share with you. BTW, on another note, last year I gave those Dinesh D' Souza videos to co-workers for a Christmas gift.

The problem with foreigners coming here is complex and too many people want a quick fix or a sound byte for a solution. The right demands that people come here "legally" (in law it's actually properly since Liberty is an unalienable Right.) Well, millions cannot come here properly because for their FACT SITUATION, the law simply does not apply (they all are not agricultural workers and many have no intention of becoming citizens.)

The left wants to bring every person they can into the U.S. and redistribute the wealth. The Democrats see easy votes. Employers see cheap labor.

You cannot tell one employer that he cannot hire cheap labor and another employer can have access to the laborers. And... whether we like it or not, there are jobs the undocumented do that Americans won't.

On the one hand we have an entire generation (maybe two or more now) that don't want to work. Their parents have mollycoddled them to the point that they expect everything to be easy. All of us have bumped into that individual in Wal Mart with the nice clothes, fine jewelry, and an expensive cell phone paying for their items with a welfare debit card. Some need welfare, but we are a nation with half the people taking out of the system as part of their livelihood while employers give jobs to foreigners. But, OTOH, the employer has an unalienable Right to give that job to whomever they choose.

IF we could divorce the right in this country from the notion that you get all your rights via your citizenship and willingness to obey every dictate of Uncle Scam, we might get to a point that a sensible path could be followed. In order to do that welfare must be confined to citizens in actual need; employers should be incentivized to hire Americans and pay them a fair wage.

We've got to get away from wasteful government that demands E Verify and allows employers to lock millions of people out of the workforce via background checks. A pot conviction a decade ago simply is not relevant to whether or not someone can perform the job today. A reference check of past employers and professional references are a much more accurate indicator. They're more honest than a database of B.S. collected by the most corrupt government on the planet.

Just like you, I want to see solutions. I just don't want those solutions to end in an all out assault on my Liberty.

 

It is FALSE claiming there are jobs Americans won't do. Blacks have literally sued commercial farms that ONLY will hire illegal immigrants. The reason they want illegal immigrants is they can avoid employment laws by doing so, not because there aren't Americans who won't do the work.

E-verify is THE solution. End the jobs and you end the problem. The other solution is to actually make illegally being in the country a criminal offense. It isn't. So there is no reason for any deported person to just turn around and try again - 5, 10, 50 times. At some locations, if nothing else a person can get a free meal out of it.

 

If you're going to make a claim, make sure you know it to be true. In 2009 a tv reporter went to south Georgia where a farm was hiring 280 people to pick berries. Of all the applicants, there were FOUR Americans applying. Two of those were gone by noon.

I've offered enough grunt jobs and semi-professional jobs. EVERY time I offer jobs like building decks or putting up doors (either job requires minimal skills), I get Bubba with his 7 mpg gas hog that thinks he is a "contractor" OR I get a truck load of Hispanic guys willing to do the job for the $25 per hour per man it takes to get it done. Bubba wants to charge 35 percent more than the Hispanics, put that in his pocket because he is, after all a contractor, and then farm the job out to guys for $15 an hour. Amazingly, those same $15 an hour guys NEVER answer ads and take miscellaneous jobs.

And you presume to want to enforce Hitler style National ID and tell me who to hire? You know what I'd say to you in person, but the bottom line here: In America the Right to own property is one of the hallmarks of a constitutional Republic. The employer owns the job he creates and, in a de jure (that is, LAWFUL) constitutional Republic can give that job to whomever they want. The employer is under no obligation to create jobs for anyone. It's not your job to take.

Failure to understand that means that many an employer has relocated their companies to foreign countries.

 

On more than an occasion, we see posts from people that have only a portion of the facts. While it is not a crime to be in the United States, if one is caught entering, they could possibly break the law and commit criminal acts. For instance, if the foreigner lies to authorities... that is a crime. Ditto if they try to use fraudulent papers or they run and are apprehended.

Secondly, multiple improper entries rises to the level of a felony under case law and statutory law. After a person has been deported, they cannot claim they had no intent to violate a law. Most of those who have worked in immigration law realize that the concept of many Hispanics is that they realize they violated the law, but they did not commit a crime. For example, in Mexico if the local constabularies arrest you, then you grease their palms and everybody goes home happy with no everlasting effects.

The Secure the border lobby keeps floating this idea that we can rebuild the Berlin Wall along the southern border of the U.S., deport the foreigners, and use National ID laws (i.e. E Verify) in order to keep those from south of the border out. The current cost for the creation of the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security, the implementation of the so - called "Patriot Act," and implementation the National ID / REAL ID Act exceeds a TRILLION DOLLARS.

Just today a news article reported that it would take $8.3 BILLION DOLLARS to build Donald Trump's fence - and maybe more, not accounting for the cost over-runs and the multiple lawsuits that will be initiated. After the fence has been built, it will take BILLIONS OF DOLLARS in technology, manpower and so forth to actually man the fence.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...etween-the-us-and-mexico/ar-AAfmABs?li=AA54ur

With all of this yet to be discussed, what we've never discussed is the cost of these ideas as they impact Liberties. What Liberty are YOU willing to give up in order to enforce laws that threaten the Liberties of foreigners?

E Verify would have made our forefathers choke the life out of those pushing it. And I want you to note WHO Secure the border advocates ask for their alleged facts: CIS - Center for Immigration Studies. CIS is one of a dozen or so non-profit organizations started and mostly funded by John Tanton. He is the same man who David Duke, a former nazi and Ku Klux Klan leader relied on when Duke started Border Watch back in 1977.

Tanton, himself, is a believer in eugenics. Eugenics is the science of improving a human population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics. To suggest that Tanton and his non-profits don't have a political ("racial") motive in their presentation of the information they distribute is naive.

Most people on the Secure the border side want to present information that bolsters their claims, but many of them don't know where the talking points originated nor what those collecting and disseminating that information are really about.

Adding insult to injury, some people are engrossed in the talking points from their own side that they don't understand the pitfalls of what they are promoting. I.E. E Verify, for example... I mean really? It's Hitler's tattoo idea on steroids. It sounds good in theory until the government uses the information collected to discriminate against someone other than so - called "illegal aliens." Most victims of the legislation supported by the Tea Party and the Secure the border lobby has been Americans, but why let a fact like that stand in the way of the power to force an agenda that hasn't been fully discussed yet?

 

Lots of good points being brought up. One thing is for sure. The leak needs to be fixed before we can start mopping up.

- - - Updated - - -

Did they enjoy their Christmas gifts?

 

At least one of them did. That video has the power to convert people.

 

I said early on that people were looking for a quick solution to a complex problem. Then again, the Secure the border lobby only articulates one issue: the presence of a people they call "illegal aliens."

We are not going to stop the flow of people into the United States. At best we can regulate it. IF we look at the other issues associated with this flow of people, we can do something constructive and accomplish something. Since the Secure the border lobby likes the plumbing analogy so good, the only way to shut the flow off at the valve would be to bomb Mexico and begin killing off that population. In short, their suggestions don't hold water (yep, pun intended.)

America is a free enterprise nation. Moving along, Congress never had the legitimate authority to get involved in taxing the populace for things they abhorred ("free" public education at taxpayer expense, wholesale welfare, etc.) Our forefathers never intended to give the government the power to dictate to an employer who they could and could not hire. So, all the anti-discrimination laws are, in fact, discriminatory toward the posterity of those who created the current government.

If we had the opportunity to hire whomever we wanted, large segments of society would hire only white Americans. If we rejected the notion that employers ought to have access to a person's background when it does not apply to the job, then more people could get considered. Knowledge of a criminal conviction might apply if a person were watching / teaching your children or handling large sums of money, but for a laborer position... ????

If you address the issue from a supply / demand perspective you can solve it. Otherwise all you can do is increase the size, power and scope of government.

 

I mostly agree with you, but still don't like the rewarding of lawbreakers that sneak into this country, have no respect for this country, and will not assimilate. Many of the illegals coming in are what those other countries have no problem getting rid of. They are diluting the U.S. both economically and socially. This country is changing, and not for the better becasue of our lawmaker's refusal to uphold our immigration laws, and securing the border. Other countries do it, and so should we. I wish we had the surrounding topography, or lack therof, that Australia has.

 

I held the same, exact view as you until I went to work doing immigration work. There I found that the Hispanics know that they are called "illegals," but they lack a real knowledge of the term. In Mexico people are stopped by the local constabularies. They grease the palms of the local LEOs and go about their business. In America it doesn't always work. But, that is the Hispanic concept of "illegal."

The second thing I found was that our laws anticipate that those who come here will (at some point) become citizens. You stated: "They are diluting the U.S. both economically and socially." It is for that very reason that I do not want the Hispanics to become citizens. There are other ways to address this.

We cannot lay our country's demise on the failures of Congress nor even of the Executive Department. A lot of the problem comes from the simple fact that a lot of people do not want to work in the United States AND many employers do not want to provide a realistic wage for workers.

MILLIONS of workers are locked out of the job market too. All of these background checks that penalize people long after they've paid their debt to society are a constant drain on a significant portion of the workforce. It's easier to stay on drugs and be a worthless POS than look for a job with a record that's a decade old.

The term "secure the border" has become synonymous with militarizing the border. We don't need it. It has no effect on jobs. For example, during Governor Rick Perry's terms in Texas 2002 - 2014 more jobs were created there than in all the other states COMBINED!

http://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...ck-perry-says-texas-has-created-more-850000-/

We're talking Texas - the largest state to butt up against the southern border. Texas handled its foreign population much differently than Californication.

Be that as it may, I'm not suggesting that anyone reward any other person for failure to obey a law. I wouldn't pursue those who hired, rented to, bought from, sold to, or otherwise done business with the foreigners. We simply tell the foreigners to step out of the shadows, pay any back taxes, get a Tax ID number (unless they have one), and get a Guest Worker status. Then we've got to work on Congress and the courts. Only citizens ought to be able to get welfare, a taxpayer paid education, Socialist Security, etc.

Suppose that a Hispanic is welcome to come here, but (as a free nation) nobody is willing to hire them, rent to them, etc. What would bring them here? Now, instead of doing that we empower a government to do (like dictate who the employer can and cannot hire; rent or or not rent to; do business with, etc.) we allow individuals to have free reign. WHO is getting screwed right now? Don't the laws lock out the posterity of the founding fathers while protecting atheists, Muslims, foreigners or anyone else whose ideology is antithetical to that of our founding fathers?

If you had to hire someone without the government's assistance (no rules, regulations, or access to biased background checks), wouldn't you rely on what former employers had to say AND personal references that actually KNEW the potential applicant said? If welfare were better regulated and the government forced able bodied people to get a job, don't you think we would have a better work force to choose from?

 

The fact remains that we have to stop the flow of illegals. They are a drain on our society and our tax dollars.

 

That, sir, is a myth. Undocumented workers pay over $12 BILLION DOLLARS annually into Socialist Security. They are the primary reason it is solvent. Approximately 75 percent of them have a Taxpayer Identification Number and pay into the system - just as you and I. But, most of all, they do labor at a cheap price.

What many people do not want to face is the fact that America was founded on this notion that the "Secure the border" lobby hates that is known as open borders (sic.) Our forefathers founded this nation on the presupposition that America was the New Jerusalem mentioned in the Bible. That New Jerusalem, according to scripture:

"And said to him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein" (Zechariah 2 : 4)

Also check out these links:

http://www.kimmillerconcernedchristians.com/Unsealings/1425.pdf

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/puritans.html

http://sheldonemrylibrary.com/oldjerusalem.pdf

You can't screw around with a dynamic like that and hope to perpetuate the concept of Liberty. Liberty is an unalienable Right. Citizenship (and its benefits) are a privilege - regardless of what the current de facto (illegal) courts are ruling. At least that is the way it is in a de jure (lawful) constitutional Republic. So, we cannot build a bigger and more intrusive government, thinking that they will protect us from our own actions.

We can regulate the flow of people in and out of the country; we can incentivize employers to hire American workers; we can force non-citizens off welfare and unemployment. We could even shut down the federal Dept. of Education and give the states the right to decide who and who does not get a taxpayer subsidized education. But, rest assured, a wall will only continue in abuses like the so - called "Patriot Act," warrantless searches, Constitution Free Zones, etc.

 

First of all, illegal aliens broke the law, and should not be paying anything to our government, nor should our government be collecting anything from them. They need to be deported.

We do not have open borders, nor should we. We are a sovereign nation that has every right to control our borders and immigration, both legal and illegal. Yes, we are a nation of immigrants mostly, but that does not mean that we have to continue with the same immigration levels year after year. It is a privilege to become a U.S. citizen or legal resident, not a right.

You talk about regulating the flow of people in and out of the country. How do we do that with a porous border that is constantly being violated by those that have no respect for our laws? Employers don't care about incentives to hire Americans. It is cheaper to hire illegals. Hit their bottom line for doing that, and that will be the incentive to NOT hire illegals.

All I do know, is that whatever we are doing now, it is not working. We are being inundated with illegals, and it is killing America both socially and economically.

 

The myth is your claim they pay over $12 B annually into SS. You have already been shown that you failed to comprehend your own link when you linked to your claim and that your claim stated that the The Account is not associated with SS, it is an ETF account with non-matching numbers to peoples names, with over 25% of those names being newly married or divorced women, and that at least half of that money is from the employer, thus illegals may pay in about $3 - 4 B annually to this account, which again is not an SS account.

BS. The first people here were sharecroppers, and from 1606 through today people have had to apply to enter and/or remain.

Liberty is a limited and limiting right, people do not have the liberty to enter into another nation without its consent, the rest is your usual inanity.

The wall has nothing to do with the Patriot Act, to contentiously associate it with that is stupid. California put a wall on its southern border and the illegals quite entering there, gofigure.

 

There are all kinds of things that are killing us socially and economically. The children of an inter-racial couple is, more often than not, raised as a liberal of the darker race's culture. The amalgamation of races, cultures, religions, and political persuasions is, like the fallen empires of history, tearing this country asunder. You cannot fix the "problem" with a bigger and more intrusive government that aims at YOUR rights via this myriad of laws that the "Secure the border" lobbyists have given you.

 

I know where you are coming from, but we have every right to maintain national security, and one of those ways is through border control. If we had truly open borders, and let anyone in here without question, we would turn into a third world country.

 

I want to thank you for hanging in there and trying to build bridges of understanding on this issue.

My fear is that we turn over the border to federal mercenaries and then, based upon where the judiciary is taking us, declare a wall to be unconstitutional. That would leave us with making citizens out of MILLIONS of people and that would be the final nail in the coffin of our Republic.

It's a bad situation to be in. If we empower the government too much, we lose our Liberties. If we don't do something, we lose our sovereignty. I'm working for a solution that does not require a lot of government intervention. In order to do that we must decide whether people entering the U.S. is an issue we want the LEO community to solve OR is it an issue of National Security that puts the burden on the federal government - and more specifically, the Executive Department.

 

The BP are Federal Law Enforcement, they are not federal mercenaries. SCOTUS can not declare a border fence unconstitutional. Why would it leave us with making citizens out of illegals that are here?

LEO already have some ability to detain illegals once they contact DHS and are instructed to either detain or release. The Federal Govt already has the burden to protect our borders, sovereignty, etc. Immigration and Naturalization fall under the Executive Branch.

 

Something needs to be done. National security is not unConstitutional.

 

Nobody is implying that it is. But, if we agree that the issue is National Security, then that is where you focus your efforts. The "Secure the border" lobby has been successful in complicating the issue so as to make it unfathomable. Let's simplify it for a change.

Everybody has a Right to come to the United States. That is not my opinion; it may not even reflect my personal opinion on the subject, but it is reality. OTOH, the United States has every RIGHT, DUTY and OBLIGATION to defend this country.

IMO, I think that America would be well served to ban Muslims from the United States as a state of war exists between them and ourselves. It may be an undeclared war, but it is a war nonetheless. We should act to defend our country. Once you've declared war, there exists this condition where the rights of one group endanger another. Government cannot protect both sides equally, so the best thing is to ban those who wage war on the Rights of others.

In keeping people inside their border, we must offer a Guest Worker program with no automatic path to citizenship. The 14th Amendment guarantees to all persons the equal protection of the laws. Laws that allow agricultural employers to legally hire foreign labor while telling NON - agricultural employers that they don't have an equal Right will ultimately be declared unconstitutional at the Supreme Court level.

You can get mad at me for telling you the truth, but it's that simple. The issue is, how do we protect the rights of all without being inundated by foreigners? Right now, that's almost like closing the barn door after the horses have already gotten out. But, we can restore sanity in an incremental fashion, just as we lost control over the situation.

By realizing the difference between citizenship and unalienable Rights, you begin to understand the parameters we have to work with. If the foreigner cannot find a job; if they do not qualify for a taxpayer paid education; if they are locked out of the welfare system, then explain WHY they would come here in the first place.

IF we had a Guest Worker program and the government of Mexico could tax their citizens, don't you think Mexico would man the border and save us the expense? Why would Mexico allow their citizens avoid Mexican taxes on income? We have to start thinking outside the box.

 

We are NOT in a religious war with Islam. That can't be supported. Let's stay real. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims. Suggesting we are at war with them would be even more crazy than suggesting UK was at war with Catholicism during IRA terrorism days.

Let's remember, too, that all the 911 criminals came to the US legally. Building more border walls is not going to solve that. Plus, any ME terrorist can find out which of our borders to choose to try to enter illegally. And, the Mexican border would be a stupid choice TODAY.

The "guest worker" idea is not good enough. The problem is that it maintains an underclass of cheap disenfranchised labor, exposed to abuse, still dependent on the USA for support, cheaper than US labor, etc. There really isn't anything better about it than what we have today. In fact, the regularization of it makes it even easier for abuse by employers, as the employer actually holds the power of deportation.

 

NOBODY has a right to come to the USA.

YES, It is your opinion. Not even international law recognizes "people have the right to enter into another country". What is recognized only is that people have the right to exit their country, nothing more.

A state of war exists between factions of Muslims.

We already have a guest worker program. Non-Agriculture can hire foreign labor via guest worker visas.

So your opinion is now truth? No matter how WRONG it is.

Foreigners rights and protections, while in the US, are limited.

Nothing to explain, numbers became almost 0 entry during the recession, they come as economic refugees.

We do have a guest worker program with numerous available visas. Mexico can't tax their citizens? You need to open the box and get some air.

 

Let's remember that more than 40% of those who are here on a permanent basis without papers (the so called "illegals") came here did not come here by running the border.

The fixation the right wing has on the border is ridiculous. What we need is a comprehensive reworking of our visa program, our worker verification program, and our process for handling those who are here - let alone the border.

Doing any one of those isn't going to solve the problem. And, it's probably the worker verification step that would make the most difference.

We had a full solution with the bi-partisan bill that passed the senate and would have passed the house had not Boehner blocked it.

 

We may not be at war is Islam, but Islam is at war with us.

 

I agree with you that the fixation the right has with the border is ridiculous. It goes to their POLICE STATE mentality. If you watch how Secure the border activists follow those around that disagree with them, you get a clearer picture of the emotional disorders they exhibit. You're not entitled to your opinion; the employer is not entitled to give the job he creates to the applicant he wants; we cannot engage in a free market economy unless both parties are Socialist Security Card carrying, National ID holding subjects of the NEW WORLD ORDER.

I especially disagree on the point of "worker verification." All of the prove this and prove that mentality with its criminal background checks, pee tests, hair samples, credit checks and back door approaches to force people into the Socialist Security scam (via National ID) makes me want to vomit.

After many years of working in and around the area of immigration - and from every side of the equation, I'm convinced that what we need to do is

A) Create a system whereby people can come here and work with no expectation of having to become a citizen

B) Give substantial tax incentives to employers that hire an all American work force in the U.S.

C) Do not extend any privilege of citizenship to Guest Workers

D) Eliminate anti - discrimination laws and allow employers to hire whomever they want

E) Make English the official language of the U.S.

We can debate all day long, but when the courts finally get around to it, they will decide AND their decision will not be to the liking of the Secure the border crowd. Worker verification is just a pretext for National ID which, in turn, means control over the population. For example, PRIOR to the National ID / REAL ID Act, an individual was not compelled to get an SSN and participate in the Socialist Security scam. You sometimes have to look at what you're giving up.

It seems to me that both of the major sides in this debate are for some kind of control over the people. Experience teaches us a different viewpoint. The bigger and more intrusive government is never the solution.