The culture of death: Children, I hope you will become martyrs

That you're from the US - a country that doesn't have a draft army - might explain why you are obviously not informed on how conscientious objections are usually dealt with. It's not as if you get to go off and party while your fellow citizens have to spend a considerable amount of their lifetime serving in the army. You usually are expected to spend the same time doing an alternative service, mostly in the social sector.
You are also overlooking the fact that a lot of pacifists will probably not even want to fight for a real or alleged self defense. Which I find surprising. I would have thought that somebody who calls himself a Reverend would have heard about the concept of 'holding out the other cheek'.

The Shministim and other groups that fight for their right to conscientious objection are not 'cowards' or 'selfish'. Quite the contrary. They're standing up for their ideals, ideals that I as a pacifist Christian regard as highly commendable. They are anything but 'dodgers':

http://december18th.org/

 

You might want to grab a map and put dots on the conflicts around the globe and note their religion

guess what religion by far has a majority stake on your map

 

9 of the 19 potential & current world Hotspots have Islamic issues involved .

 

Oh the army of the USA did indeed have a draft in Nam and before I joined the army! So with all due respect you err when referencing my in your opinion I am suffering an knowage shortfall about such things! People often ask me why I joined even though the USA had a draft though. However I think its not a good idea to dodge the draft or not join because by doing that you are simply allowing another young man possibly die for your in my opinion selfish choice. I will say that Pacifism is somewhat admirable in some circumstances but in very, very, VERY few instances!

I don't know what is best. What if your entire nation were CO's ?

Yes I know, again if only a few citzens were CO's it may be Ok. I don't think its fair to the other soiders that are risking thier life so the CO's can dodge thier responsibility. If a man will not defend his home whats to keep someone from taking it, or what is to stop a criminal from taking his wife? Or his daughter? NO! not in my lifetime!

Have you read much of the old testement? God is a warrior in somecases even if Jesus wasn't. Call me silly, stupid, gorant or both, but IMPHO Jesus or God would not want us to stand by while our family and we were raped tortiured and murdered.

I agrere that its commendable however sometimes its more commendable and nessassary to set YOUR beleifs aside and kill the enemy before he kills you and yours. I can not respect nor understand a pacifist that would stand by while his family got tortured raped and otherwise militated and violated, and having him endure the same fate for an 'idea'.

Never, but as I said I do understand the intellectual reasoning behind it, but to allow that reasoning to justify the murder and torture of his entire family (as a extreme example) is something I could never, ever, EVER agree to!

Rev A

 

Um that wouldnt be the muslim ones.

It would be the orthodox christian ones in the slavic ones, the latin ones and the african ones.

 

Im not saying you dont need to help the nations military in some way.

Im saying training in and driving a tank is about the most offensive thing you can think of doing in an army.

But i take your last point. Talk about making people human shields eh?

 

Seems the "reward" for female shahids is equivalent in the eyes of Allah and the men who run the religion.

Mulitple pussay for a man, a single dick for a woman for all of eternity. Boy that seems fair.



If a woman is killed as a martyr for the sake of Allaah, how does the hadeeth “The shaheed will be married to seventy-two hoor al-‘iyn” apply to her?
Praise be to Allaah.

We put this question to Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Jibreen, may Allaah preserve him, who answered as follows:

This number is only for men. A woman will have only one husband in Paradise, and she will be satisfied with him and will not need any more than that.

The Muslim woman – who is not influenced by the claims of those who propagate permissiveness and knows that she is not like men in her make-up and nature, because Allaah has made her like that – does not object to the rulings of Allaah or feel angry. Rather she accepts what Allaah has decreed for her. Her sound nature tells her that she cannot live with more than one man at a time. So long as she has entered Paradise, she will have all that she desires, so she should not dispute now about the delights and rewards that her Lord has chosen for her, for your Lord does not treat anyone unjustly. If she is one of the people of Paradise, then she is included, like men, in the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Trays of gold and cups will be passed round them; (there will be) therein all that inner-selves could desire, and all that eyes could delight in and you will abide therein forever”

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/11419

 

Count them and note which one are based on religion next

 

CO's don't allow other young men to die for them, they refuse to kill other young men just because they happen to wear a different uniform.
Pacifism is always admirable and war is always terrible. If you think that it was a good thing that young Americans were forced to die in a foreign jungle and to kill people in a country they probably never heard of before, think again.

That would be great. It would bring us one step closer to Sandburg's vision: „Sometime they'll give a war and nobody will come“.

Learning how to change a helpless elderly person's diaper rather than learning how to work machinery for killing people isn't dodging any responsibility. Quite the contrary. Your attempt to equate war with defending your family against a criminal doesn't work, never has done.

It seems you have missed out on new developments concerning God that occured about 2000 years ago. If you want to find out about them, I suggest you read the New Testament. If you think Jesus - who lived in an occupied country - was joking when He told us to love our enemies, you probably are all the things you invited me to call you. But I won't give up hope that you'll understand our Lord's teachings one day.

It was this kind of thinking that made the world as it is today. Do you know how many people could be fed, clothed, and provided with shelter and medical care for all the money our countries waste on their military budgets? Guess what would happen if everybody shared the 'silly' idea of pacifism.

So tell me Rev, which Vietnamese ever threatened to kill your family and how that justified going over to Vietnam, killing Vietnamese families and poisoning a whole country with Agent Orange so that until this very day loads of children are born with birth defects?

 

Thailand, Phillipines, Israel, India, Islands near Indonesia, Russia to name a few nations who are in direct conflict and are being attacked by Jihadists.

 

Ah now its about basing on religion now eh? Moving goal posts? Why would the basis matter?

Pathetic.

 

Fascinating.

That must all the nations in the world then eh?

I gave you continents and you come up this list?

Again pathetic.

 

Their religion promotes violent expansion, holy war, and 2nd rate status to unbelievers, sure as hell it is about religion. No Muslim complained when Egypt and Jordan ''occupied' Gaza and the West-bank.

 

You asked about nations and their neighbor probs. You didnt mention religion.

You seem to think Muslims are the major cause of world difficulties, youd be wrong about that. Even if it is your theme.

By the way why would anyone have complained when these powers took gaza and the west bank? Under them they were more likely to be able to stay in their villages. And thats what happened.

Please dont try me with any debate on the israel palestine history, ive read much more than you. Your historical knowledge extends merely to cherry pickked quran quotes and stats on violence that suit your agenda.

You do have an agenda here dont you? Or am I wrong about that?

 

Well, the Muslim were able to stay. The jews were expelled.

 

Fact is that the arabs went to war, lost, and never really tried to settle for peace.

Seeing your flag makes me believe you also have an Agenda. My agenda being how I saw my first neighborhood turn into a Islamic ghetto where one should not go unless being Muslim, or under police protection.

 

One might find Jews being lesser creatures then Muslims, in some nations, ^^

 

I am not attempting to gain the moral high ground here, am only stating facts (what are you doing?). I think you misunderstood me as well. What I meant to get across is that if one is fighting a war for demonstrable self defense what are we going to do if 90% of our side was pacifists? I know our famlies etc would all die! Can you not see the folly of that kind of thinking?

I do not appreciate that comment. You know what I am talking about. I have never advocated war unless it was do or die, or do or allowing millions to die. I could ask you do you think it’s a good thing for a pacifist holding a weapon to rape and kill his wife and daughter if killing the rapist murder was the only option?

According to my bible that will NEVER happen. Man will never learn to live by the teachings of Jesus and will end up at Megiddo fighting a war called Armageddon, where unless Jesus returns no flesh will be saved.

You are afraid of that thought experiment because it demonstrates the folly of attempting to be a pacifist in this world. Look up 'thought experiment'. The main idea of said thought experiment may never happen but its not meant to describe a event but rather a thought experiment is designed show by example the folly or reward of a difficult question. You have arrived at the wrong conclusions entirely.

No. The new testament was edited and meant to impart a certain message. When Jesus returns I can assure you that you will get a lesson in Armageddonic’ pacifism~

Again I don't know who taught you how to interpret the bible. The way I have been taught and have learned by life experiance (outside the halls of acdemia) is that God is God. God is Jesus. God is vengeful. One must use common sense in reading the bible along with applying his education. I stand by my claim that Jesus would not stand by and allow his family to be slaughtered if he only had lethal means to stop it. Tell me, what do you think Jesus is going to do at Armageddon, kiss the armies that have come against Israel and ?

With all due respect, YOU, especially you, who seems to have some advanced education concerning theology should RE-visit your books and review the field of BASIC biblical concepts specifically of old and new testament compatibility before making statements that I would expect from someone that has rarely cracked a bible.

Yes, I have said that so many times on this forum that my keypad goes on full auto as I begin to write it. However there is a difference between pacifism and the bibles teachings. That said there is even a bigger difference There is a between waxing philosophically of how things should and could be rather than the way they are because of greed etc. However you should thank God that you have the time and security (paid for in BLOOD) to wax and wane! If taken too far pacifism will cause the death of others due to someone’s pacifism and refusal to fight, 'what if's' be (*)(*)(*)(*)ed.

First, unless you were there you don’t even have a clue about that war. All you have is secondhand knowledge and its probably propaganda. Secondly I have said over and over that I am anti war, not all war is created equal. However I would not allow an enemy invade our land and do as they wish to our people because I am too sorry to defend my own family. If you think history has no examples of invasion rape and torture check this link out;

Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A woman and her two teenager daughters were raped, and Japanese rammed a
bottle and a cane in the vagina. An eight-year old girl was ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre -

Would you stand by and claim you are a CO or a pacifist and do nothing if you had the power to stop the above atrocities ???

Or go to Africa right now and take your family. When a warlord led group of men wielding machetes etc you may get to see what pacifism in real life gets you in the face of real evil. Pacifism like anything else has a place in the real world. It’s an wonderful trait. However the real world has a way of forcing one to choose the lesser of two evils, if one refuses to choose the lesser of those evils only evil will prevail.

Rev A

 

Its a usual suspect** kind of thing, or at least that is where I first saw the ‘battle cry‘ against freedom and for racism and insensitivity to the history of Israelis peoples brush with genocide. (Jewish people). One of the usual suspects suggested everyone fly the flag as a unity thing (if I am wrong I am sure he will correct me). At least now I know who the most viral* of the usual suspects are!

notes;
* Viral = infecting ~

** Usual suspects = I coined that for brevity. Instead of defining every time the Usual suspects denote the group of usually left wing liberal anti Israel Anti USA pro Hamas Pro terror Pro Palestinian homeland where the ends justify the means etc etc~

Rev A

 

So you think Jesus was a fool when He did not call for a military uprising against the Roman occupation of His people but told them to give to Caesar what's Caesars, to hold out the other cheek, walk the extra mile and love their enemies? You think he was a fool when He died on the Cross rather than sending a rain of fire on those who put Him there?

Again dear: not a valid comparison. There's a difference between personal self-defense and collective self-defense, which is why CO's in Germany could answer yes to the question whether they'd kill a criminal who threatened to kill or rape their girlfriend and could still be accepted as CO's. (As a matter of fact they even were expected to say yes in order to be accepted as CO)

Maybe it's time you also read the pages of the bible that preempt the book of revelation. And maybe it's also time you rid yourself of your fixation on that warped interpretation of the book of revelation some misguided Armageddon-freaks adhere to. It will do you no good.
My bible is quite old and battered and has a sticker from an ecumenic meeting in 1988 on its cover. The sticker quotes Luke 1:79b: "to guide our feet into the path of peace"

I've got a feeling - even though I don't wish you any ill and believe in a merciful God - that that lesson may be to see warmongering Armageddon freaks like Hagee burning in eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation.

I was taught how to interpret the Bible by my parents, my pastors, my teachers, many Christian friends and for some terms by university professors for Protestant Theology at a proper and highly reputable university. Here and there I believe I've been guided by the Holy Spirit - even though unlike may Evangelicals who have no qualms about being full of themselves I tend to be careful to when giving the rather subjective authority of the latter as an argument.

Where did you get your vile interpretation from?

Thanks for the compliment. But while I reckon that my education concerning theology probably exceeds yours, I'm still not highly educated, just a humble normal Christian. And in that capacity I give you the advice to just reread the Bible while praying for Jesus to give you the loving faith He taught.

You're seriously misled. Maybe thinking before typing might help.

As a result of that war I got to know my best friend who is of Vietnamese origin. She was orphaned and then adopted at the age of 6 month. She'll never know her biological parents because of war-mongerers.
So crap your patriotic pseudo-hero BS. No matter how much you want to whitewash your past, Tucholsky was right when he said that soldiers are murderers. I don't blame the impressionable young man you must have been for the blood that may be on your hands. But as a grown man you should be wiser.

Different war, but doesn't matter. Did any of the victims of Nanking spring back to life when the atomic bomb was dropped over Hiroshima?

The only way to stop such atrocities is to stop the circle of violence.

 

We have to admit that Islam only teaches violence, why is it that virtually every terrorist act is commited in the name of Islam? Certainly not because they are poor ( Most Sub Saharan Christians are far poorer)

 

We have to admit nothing of the sort. But maybe it's time you admitted that your posts are BS:

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=239135&R=R101

A video from the event:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxSRYRqn_00&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxSRYRqn_00&feature=related[/ame]

 

wow 12.000, far less then the masses who whined about a teddy bear named Muhammed, bravo.

 

Well I would like to agree with you, and do for most of your post. However, there are many terrorist groups. Maybe you mean that the scope of slaughter and the targeting of the most helpless of people differentiates the Islamic terrorist from normal murderers. Additionally Islamofascst terrorism has a greater number of casualties per incident than other terrorists such as Christian or domestic terrorists who for the most part are only interested in gaining attention. Not many terror groups are so vile and evil that they kill thousands in one cowardly attack, then state publically that they had wished for more death and destruction. BTW, you are correct in saying that other religions such as Christianity really do have terror groups, however they rarely murder anyone for revenge or simple hate. They bomb for attention save for one case that I remember. (that one case would be the late term tiller the baby killer murder). Even then they wrongly murdered TTBK to stop tillers own murder spree.

Anyway~

As I said, Christian groups are using terror to get attention for their cause. Even tough that in itself is repulsive, they seem to use restraint, and show that at least some humanity exists inside their minds. I can not say that about islamofascist terrorists, they are pure evil. Where some terror groups attempt to hold back on casualties, the radical Islamic terrorists for the most part attempt to maximize the slaughter, pain and grief, intentionally targeting children or other helpless victims.

Rev A

 

Please dont try that rubbish about the history on me. Ive read it extensively.

My agenda is simply the reason people here are doing the same. To support the Palestinians having their own state.

Your first neighborhood, is not an Islamic ghetto. You feel that way however, and thats made you hate islam and muslims. You fail to recognise the basic humanity in these people. You have little personal experience of these people in their lives and you take little real interest in the Israeli/ Pal conflict beyond telling us that terrorism is a major facet of Islam and muslim people.