The Current West and its Origins

Yes, that came afterwards, and we have both acknowledged that our government has refused to secure our right to self-proprietorship and denied us the rights associated it with it, such as the right to make our own healthcare decisions.

I never suggested that you did or should hate America for that or anything else our government does. I disagreed with the Dobbs ruling too, along with the Sebelius rulings and Biden's attempt to force me to take a Covid shot, but I don't hate my country for that.

What do you mean by "biological attack"? Are we playing semantical games here?

If you're referring to the Covid virus, certainly the government has a necessary and proper role to play in helping to fight it, but violating peoples' right to self-proprietorship and their right to make their own healthcare decisions by forcing them to take a shot that doesn't prevent the transmission of the virus is neither necessary nor proper - it's a dictatorial abuse of power, and that's why Biden tried (and failed) to make an end run around the Constitution with his mandate. The fact he did it for his own political self-aggrandizement only made it more reprehensible.

Sure, sometimes the lines aren't so clear and sometimes public officials knowingly and deliberately cross lines that are quite clear. Nevertheless, we have a Constitution for a reason, and that is to draw lines that the government may not cross and to limit its scope and power. For example, consider the General Welfare Clause in the Constitution which many conveniently and erroneously read as a general, unlimited grant of authority to the federal government. It's not, and it was never intended to be:

"With respect to the two words 'general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
--James Madison (in a letter to James Robertson), April 20, 1831

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."
- Thomas Jefferson, 1798

"This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83, 1788

I thought that's why we have a Judiciary.

Last I checked, we're a democracy because the Founders believed that power and sovereignty is derived from and vested in the Individual, not the State. Furthermore, the Founders wrote a Constitution to keep the State and the majority of the people from violating the power, sovereignty and rights of the Individual.

As for settling what can be settled through our democratic process and submitting to the will of the majority, that has to do with the social contract theory that John Locke discussed in his Two Treatises on Government.

 

No, I certainly did not agree that America doesn't support self-proprietorship.

I do agree that the current healthcare coverage system needs to be improved, but I pointed out that individuals DO have choice in their healthcare.

The nature of biological attack, be it natural or manmade, requires participation by the citizenry.

Again, I think one has to identify what it is that they don't agree with before making an argument for change.

I think that is what we are attempting to do.

Again, there isn't a bright line. And, there are reasons that sometimes go beyond the obvious. So, I think it does require us to look at individual issues.

For example, the biological attack issue is not adequately answered by simply saying that nobody should be required to take part in the defense against such an attack.

 

Straw man. I never said America doesn't support self-proprietorship and that we agree that it doesn't.

I said "we have both acknowledged that our government has refused to secure our right to self-proprietorship and denied us the rights associated it with it, such as the right to make our own healthcare decisions".

They do now, and how long that will last before Democrats try to force everyone into a single payer system, etc., is anyone's guess.

And it was only a short time ago when Obama & Co. deprived people of their right to make their own healthcare decisions by forcing them to purchase health insurance or pay a penalty to the government. Thankfully, we have returned to the days when people can decline to purchase health insurance without being penalized by the government.

Still playing disingenuous word games.

The Covid 19 outbreak never required everyone to get a shot that won't halt the transmission of the virus but was mandated anyway by a dictatorial politician who needed to shore up his lousy approval ratings by placating the authoritarian elements in his base.

My body, my choice.

Either one supports the right to self-proprietorship or one doesn't. Either you're part of the problem or you're part of the solution.

And I just identified one thing that myself and the Founders disagreed with, and that is the erroneous notion that the federal government has a general, unlimited grant of authority - that there are no limitations despite the plain fact that the entire intent and point of writing the Constitution was to limit the scope and power and government.

Sorry, I'm not clear on who you think is attempting to do what. Could you be more specific?

Often there is.

What precisely are you arguing when you say that "there are reasons that sometimes go beyond the obvious"?

Your disingenuous little word game undermines any argument you're trying to make here, Will, but I think we both understand each other clearly and you and the politicians you voted for never had the right and reason to force anyone to take the Covid vaccine against their will.

 

I think you need to pick a side.

And, that can't be based on one single case, as there are almost always exceptions.

Wow - that is total nonsense.

Our healthcare system allows you to make pretty much any personal healthcare decision you want.

It's true that you can't get hospitals to do stuff like cut off perfectly working limbs, or prescribe narcotics for entertainment.

This is one of those cases where there definitely IS the possibility of exception. And, you are opposing the best understanding that medicals science developed.

This has been discussed in the past, and in the context of this topic it is certainly not more than one instance - not a rule.

I agree with our founders. However, a LOT has changed, and thus an absolutist reading is not necessarily appropriate for our times.

In general, we are being led by our constitution. And, I stand by my statement that there isn't always a bright line. So, there are cases where there is disagreement. Those disagreements are often more deeply held than appears by the superficial names we give to disagreements.

One example: understanding of transmittable disease is far deeper than the anti-vaxx believers have any idea about.

I'm absolutely NOT playing word games.

As for our defense against biological threats, I totally disagree with you. We had an opportunity to save large numbers of lives and preserve far more of economy by carrying out what it is that we absolutely did know about COVID. We failed to do that. In fact, we pretty much failed ON PURPOSE!!

Not only was that stupid and expensive in lives and economy, but it leads one to wonder how vulnerable we are to biological attacks that are far more deadly than is COVID and could well be designed by adversaries. We have instantiated a LOW LOW defensive position, leaving the USA highly vulnerable.

 

If I have no other positive characteristic..... I do do a lot of writing totally for free.......

and I am trying my best to stir up a Christian Political Cyrus for the nation of Israel and for The Jewish people who will build them the LITERAL EZEKIEL CHAPTER FORTY TO FORTY EIGHT TEMPLE COMPLEX.........

....... You are onto something about Biden playing a positive role..........

.... if Biden would pray and volunteer to become a modern "goat for Azazel"......... as is hinted at in Leviticus chapter sixteen verse ten.......... Biden could surge past even President Donald J. Trump and could in theory become the guy who "Gets "er Done!"........ in other words builds the nation of Israel and the Jewish people the LITERAL EZEKIEL CHAPTER FORTY TO FORTY EIGHT TEMPLE COMPLEX???????

IF AZAZEL CAN DO TESHUVAH AND TURN AROUND.... THEN BIDEN CAN TURN AROUND..........

AND PERHAPS A MESSAGE LIKE THE FOLLOWING...... COULD ASSIST SOME OF HIS SUPPORTERS IN AMERICA AND IN ISRAEL..... TO BEGIN TO LOOK AT THIS WHOLE MESS FROM ANOTHER ANGLE ENTIRELY.........

I put a variation of the following message on more than a hundred Mewe groups......
so... we should have a few new posters to political forum .com soon.......

 

Joe Biden.... in spite of his many, many, many, many, many flaws.....
is all set up to read a script that his advisors pass to him.... that could result in his being regarded as a possible Moshiach ben Ephrayim by the Jewish people within a century.........

Serious errors in The Abrahamic Peace Accords set Biden and / or his advisors up to correct those errors in the Abrahamic Peace Accords...........

and if I were Biden and / or one of his influential advisors.... I would be really scared of the scholarship of a man from Jerusalem named Mr. Siman Tov Allalouf........

The Christian Political Cyrus / The Audition and President Donald J. Trump.

 

You'll enjoy this:

https://www.voxmagazine.com/magazin...cle_990d657a-1cb2-11ea-a492-7bb6a8fd1867.html

 

YOU GOT IT BROTHER!!!!!!!

I admit that I am biased... I believe that President Donald J. Trump is all set to go down in history as having been an improvement over President Abraham Lincoln and / or J.F.K. but...........

... he also is human and biased and has terrible trouble finding honest and competent people to work on the initiatives that he wants to set in motion.....

I believe that Mr. Siman Tov Allalouf is BETTER THAN ALL FOUR HUNDRED OF PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP'S CHRISTIAN ADVISORS...... PUT TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!

... (At least on the subject of a possible weakness in The Abrahamic Peace Accords!!!!!!????)....

I believe that the USA Democratic Party could DO A METAPHORICAL MAGNETIC POLAR FLIP AND BECOME THE "WHITE DONKEY" IN ONE DAY........
and voila.......

Sleepy Joe Biden and his terribly flawed advisors who made such awful errors in the past........

could correct the errors in The Abrahamic Peace Accords.......

and they could set in motion a series of events that would positively transform the world economy.........

I tried my best to explain how this could happen in this discussion.........

and the key is the Mr. Siman Tov Allaloiuf scholarship and also.........

some brilliant scholarship by a member of political forum .com


The Christian Political Cyrus / The Audition and President Donald J. Trump.


https://yehezkeel-narod-ru.translat..._sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp

@Aryeh B.

 

I so thank you for that link....
I copy and pasted that link over to this discussion.......


http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-donald-j-trump.603660/page-2#post-1073800409

The Christian Political Cyrus / The Audition and President Donald J. Trump.

 

the west invented our current banking system, and England is a mountain of coal facilitating the industrial revolution, also the means to invent accurate clocks made navigation more reliable for ocean travel (english invention)

 

I could be wrong.....
but I believe that my last name.... Tate.... is an English name......
and I believe that Thomas Robert Malthus was an apologist for the abuses of the British Empire on one level..........

and yes.... the invention of the current banking system was indeed an extremely important invention ........


I would like to think that British apologist Thomas Robert Malthus might even want to apologize for some of the abuses that his theories have been put to recently.......


An apology to all humanity from Thomas Malthus by Dennis Tate

I can't help but wonder what Thomas Robert Malthus would say to somebody if he were allowed to meet with them during a near death experience..... or something like that.... .if he were asked about.........


Do we Canadians owe America an apology for 1750 - 1783?


https://www.michaeljournal.org/arti...story-of-banking-control-in-the-united-states

(Alain Pilote .....)

 

Malthus never accounted for human ingenuity and invention, we now have food abundance because of the age of oil and the fertilizer that came with it which is the main reason i support NOT burning fossil fuels, because we need them for food and medicine

 

Wow!!!!!

This is one of the most interesting replies that I have ever gotten on this topic and I feel that I should put this idea in front of the poster on this forum who introduced me to the word, "Malthusian" several years ago!


http://www.politicalforum.com/index...writings-as-art.534297/page-3#post-1073800489

?
Is the world economy being deliberately dampened, perhaps to save the environment?

1. *
   Yes
   3 vote(s)
   75.0%
2. 
   No
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
3. 
   Maybe?????
   1 vote(s)
   25.0%

Change Your Vote

 

i dont think in a box never have, R buckminster Fuller published quite a few interesting ideas which are online Fuller lost his daughter in a drunken accident and devoted the rest of his life to helping mankind

 

Thank you for reminding me of his name....
I had heard of him before but it was years since I read anything about him......

I wonder what he thinks of where I am at regarding Theistic Evolutionary Theory......
which in terms of the Jewish and Christian scriptures reminds me of Ezekiel chapter thirty seven... Revelation chapter twenty... and Romans chapter nine, ten and eleven.......



www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

......

When I use the phrase... what he thinks in the present tense .... I mean that I do not believe that this man is entirely dead... but instead that a part of him has lived on and on and on and on and on......

 

Quantum mechanics is counter intuitive, i did find a documentary on how our sense of smell uses QM, meaning QM really does coexist with our "real" world...mankind thinks we know so much, but we only know bits and pieces of our locality

 

Exactly!!!!!

And I myself cannot discern any obvious errors or omissions in the following writing based on a near death experience way back in 1943......
decades before Stephen Hawking Ph. D. and others turned the high school level explanation for String Theory into something of an ordinary topic for discussion in many seemingly average homes here in the developed world.


https://near-death.com/george-ritchie-nde/

The near death experience of Dr. George Ritchie was the one that got Dr. Raymond Moody asking better and better and better questions back in the 1970's and 1980's!

 

i am a recovering alcoholic with 23 yrs sober, the common citizen as little understanding of that "obsession" either, which plays a disastrous part in our current society's handling of drug addiction, i put my two cents in occasionally, but generally think it may take a few more generations to come to grips with a humane policy, however is is certainly thread drift lol

 

I could be wrong.....
but I suspect that the writer of the opening post would be interested in your suggestions on how the improved and better "west" may be able to deal with alcoholism and drug addiction and other issues...... I feel that an Unconditional but taxable Basic Minimum Income is one part of the full solution......
to this and many other issues confronting Canada and the USA and all developed western nations at this time.


Five hundred dollars per Canadian per month, can this work?

?
Could five hundred dollars per Canadian per months actually work?

1. 
   No
   2 vote(s)
   33.3%
2. *
   Yes
   2 vote(s)
   33.3%
3. 
   I would love to think so... but I have doubts!
   2 vote(s)
   33.3%
4. 
   Maybe?????
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%

Change Your Vote

Hey Talon... are you interested in allowing this topic to drift over to a Basic Minimum Income and how a BMI could potentially address homelessness.. alcoholism... drug addiction..... the abuses of the sex industry and other related problems in our modern world?

 

Thanks for asking, Dennis.

I think it would be best if you started a thread dedicated to the BMI, etc., so we can focus on the origins of the current West here.

 

When I trace the West back to its Classical origins, I credit the Hellenes/Greeks with establishing its philosophical and artistic origins and, to your point, the Romans with establishing its infrastructure. Of course, both made important contributions to law and government.

Some time ago I saw an interview with a historian (I wish I could remember his name) who had an interesting theory that the West as we know it today began with the fall of the Western Roman Empire and its settlement and division during the Migration Period. This would have started as early as 300 CE and ended as late as 800 CE. He argued that it was this fragmentation of the West that made it possible for the European nation-states that we are familiar with today to begin forming out of what had been one single empire and it territory and government.

 

That's a fair point, and one that's been made by several historians. You could argue that it's a strong reason why eastern Europe was dominated by multi-national empires (Austria and Russia) until the 20th century. (The German Empire was another matter, being quite national in character.)
A bit farther ahead, it's an irony of history that it was the West which more readily absorbed the classical heritage largely preserved in the interim by Arab scholars, as opposed to Europeans in the East who were more resistant.

 

Personally, I think that had to do with the pervasive influence of Roman civilization in the West before the collapse of the Western Empire and its remarkable endurance afterwards, which was facilitated in no small part by the Roman Catholic Church, a vestige of the Roman Empire itself, that preserved Classical learning and civilization throughout Europe.

 

True, it was a strong military force, backing the rule of religion over government with religious wars, the multiple inquisitions, etc. We can see that it wasn't the first or the last time that religion has demanded the reigns of government, especially as it exists in places even today.

Even in Iraq, we note that the constitution we helped them design was modified to be legally secondary to religious law. We see the religion of Judaism in Israel demand that they carry out ethnic cleansing on Palestine. We see Iran. Etc.

Fortunately, our own founders were wise enough to see that government must be secular - that it must be separate from religion, regardless of how unified the faiths of the citizens might be.

 

I'll have to be persuaded that the church institutionally (as opposed to individual clerics) played such a role.