The fraudulent claim of air and the Apollo 15 flag.

Discussion in 'Moon Landing' started by Betamax101, Dec 31, 2015.

  1. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    The requests have been made to support the case that air is the reason for the Apollo 15 flag movement. Here they are below:-

    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.

    From a purely scientific viewpoint, air will not be pushed several feet in front of a moving object. There are numerous videos and pictures to support this, notably activities in wind tunnels.

    Small object:-

    [​IMG]

    Man:-

    [​IMG]

    Car:-

    [​IMG]

    There is nothing at all to support the so called "wall of air" nonsense, every single piece of scientific evidence dismisses that claim. The following video shows it in more detail:-

    http://www.sailracing.com/stories/wind-tunnel/

    The following webpage totally puts the whole ridiculous claim to the sword:-

    http://debunking-a-moron.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/apollo-15-flag.html
     
  2. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    Step by step, the scientific method. When something occurs and it needs analysing, the same steps must be followed. When we only have a selective piece of video that doesn't show enough of the whole scene, the only thing one can do is to attempt to assess all possibilities.

    With the Apollo 15 flag, what we see is what appears to be a very small initial movement that begins some 4-6 feet away from the flag. It doesn't take more than a cursory view to dismiss the claim that this can be caused by air, since we know a moving body will not displace that amount of air in front of it. The preceding post supports this.

    What is left are a number of other possibilities that have their own merits.

    Number 1: The movement is caused by a piece of regolith, kicked horizontally by the astronaut that strikes the pole and causes a small movement. We already know that the entire flag shifts right on the video, including the pole itself, so this possibility can not be discounted.

    Number 2: The movement is actually a video artefact. To support this claim, we have an animated gif showing lens flares actually moving with the flag.

    [​IMG]

    Lens flares are caused by internal lens reflection so they would not behave like this. The sheer fact that they perform the same sideways movement as the flag, and at the moment when Dave Scott with his very bright suit enters the frame, leads us to the conclusion that the movement we see is caused by blooming on the camera.

    Number 3: Ground vibration caused the movement. There is nothing to support or dismiss this claim. The astronauts feet striking the regolith could feasibly produce enough vibration to cause a small movement.

    Number 4: The movement is a result of a strong static discharge. We know that vacuum limits the way charges are carried away, so when there is an instance of a discharge it will be large. We know from pre-mission reports and preventative measures that this was an issue that concerned the surface planning team. There is nothing directly to support this claim and possibly the distance involved that dismisses it.

    Number 5: The cause was from air being pushed forwards. This is the only one of the 5 that we can dismiss from simple and basic science. Air does not behave that way, it is not possible for air to be pushed many feet in front of an object.
     
  3. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    Now we can start looking at more evidence to dismiss the claims repeatedly made. The following video shows major things that totally refute the "wall of air". Firstly, the flag on Earth billows very noticeably whilst the Apollo 15 flag does not. Secondly the movement only occurs when he is a matter of a few inches away from the flag and just level with it. This is in direct contrast to Dave Scott who even conservatively is 4 feet away when this so called movement occurs.

    [video=youtube;V2uhMQXRegc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2uhMQXRegc[/video]

    It has been claimed that because the flag is straight on as opposed to angled away at 45 degrees that this would make a difference. That is quite correct, straight on it would be much closer and far more likely to be moved!

    - - - Updated - - -

    In this video I show the original Apollo 15 flag moving for 30 seconds. Using Jarrah's 66% slowed down footage theory, that equates to 20 seconds. White then proceeds to run past his own flag several times, yet is only able to move his flag for 4-5 seconds. That equates to 6-7.5 seconds adjusted up 150%. With White's flag, there is a totally different billowing movement, a rapid stop, and indeed a much more aggressive motion. No gentle back and forth prolonged swaying as per Apollo 15 flag.

    [video=youtube;-0RsDqmPa_s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0RsDqmPa_s[/video]
     
  4. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Those examples given by Betamax don't duplicate the conditions which make the flag move.

    Apollo 15 flag, facing air resistance; proving the fraud of alleged manned moon landings.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn6MTrin5eU
    (2:35 time mark)


    If one duplicates the conditions exactly, one can reproduce the same movement that the Apollo flag makes.

    Initial Apollo 15 Flag Movement
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW9qcL4LiUg

    The flag that moved
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFMpmjEv9o0

    This one above also makes it clear that it's real movement and not camera bloom.


    The two above videos show that the flag had already started moving before he got close enough to be able to touch it so we know he didn't hit it with his elbow. Anyone can duplicate the flag movement by hanging a paper towel from a coat hanger and passing a doll by it at a forty five degree angle and see that the towel will first move away from and then back towards the doll. The same can be done on a larger scale by hanging a light piece of cloth from a ceiling light and trotting by it. Those other scenarios which show different conditions are irrelevant.


    Air made it move. They were in a studio. Hey Betamax. If you maintain that the flag wouldn't move the way I said it would, please tell us how it would move if someone were to trot by it without touching it at about a forty five degree angle.


    This video shows that the flag movement is consistent with atmosphere.

    windyz.wmv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7yc2rVOs00
    (00:50 and 1:50 time marks)

    The movement of the support rod shows how the astronaut is moving the pole. He's not moving it in a way that makes it come to a stop. It's air that makes it come to a stop faster than the one in the MythBusters video.


    These two also show the footage was taken in atmosphere.

    Physics of the Moon Flag
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgUncG26MMA

    Physics of the Moon Flag - part 2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EscIMIkiER8


    Here's some more stuff.

    Can't touch this (flag)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFsFu5ouXQ4

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MoonFaker:+The+Flags+Are+Alive
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MoonFaker:+Flagging+The+Dead+Horses


    There's a ton of other proof that the missions were faked.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/moon-landing/347662-apollo-moon-missions-were-faked-studio.html



    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=362999&page=2&p=1064028979#post1064028979
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=403884&page=2&p=1064900819#post1064900819
     
  5. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    For those casual observers, I should point out that the post before this was written by a serial forum spammer who is completely incapable of correctly debating this subject. I strongly suspect they have some ongoing financial motivation to keep this going.

    I quite clearly showed a whole variety of objects in a wind tunnel all exhibiting the same behaviour. The serial spammer will not address this issue. All he will do is respam his videos with more or less the same identical claims. Cut and paste stupidity.

    In addition to showing the conditions on how air behaves, I also highlighted a video that attempts to duplicate the Apollo 15 flag. I identified why it failed so badly. The serial spammer will also not address this issue. he will say some hogwash about how he already has without doing so.

    It zooms in on one corner, but fails to show that the entire flag and surface itself also appears to shift right. The serial spammer will also fail to respond to the lens flares correctly. He has responded to it, but with nothing more than ignorant denial.

    The serial spammer simply has some sort of mental block here. He uses one incident as a means to dismiss another when there is not necessarily any connection.

    "Anybody" but the serial spammer. He has been asked dozens of times to film this but never does so. Jarrah White did the experiment and as noted, failed miserably.

    No it did not. They were on the Moon.

    Exactly as the one in Jarrah White's video. Billowing from air when he runs past it, air will reach it as he is level and it will stop far quicker then what we see on the Moon flag.

    Note the serial spammer and his diversion. Addressed on this webpage that he also ignores:-

    http://debunking-a-moron.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/apollo-17-flag.html


    What we are dealing with here, is a delusion and obsession that cannot be altered even with the truth. The serial spammer claims to be a "truther" whatever that means. Only in his case it means his "truth" is the only one he entertains, no matter what is presented. He makes the idiotic claim about the "atmosphere explanation" yet never elaborates or explains what that actually means. Here, let me demonstrate.


    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.
     
  6. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Here's the segment from Jarrah's video he's referring to.

    MoonFaker: The Flags Are Alive. PART 1.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr76qSQ9ZQQ
    (8:30 time mark)


    Jarrah is running by it at a ninety degree angle. The astronaut in the Apollo footage is running by the flag at about a forty five degree angle. Tell us how the flag would move if someone were to trot by it without touching it at a forty five degree angle. Tell us how it would be different from the Apollo flag movement.


    Jarrah's flag stops more quickly than the Apollo flag because the Apollo footage is being shown in slow-motion.

    MoonFaker: The Penny Drops. PART 1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr76qSQ9ZQQ
     
  7. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    And the spamming continues. Not only does the serial spammer repost this ignorant hogwash he deliberately fails to even read above in post #3 where I have addressed this totally obvious point.

    " It has been claimed that because the flag is straight on as opposed to angled away at 45 degrees that this would make a difference. That is quite correct, straight on it would be much closer and far more likely to be moved!"

    The edge and the whole flag are nearer since the flag is now straight ahead. Any air wake would subsequently strike the flag sooner. Since the edge of the flag only moves when he is exactly level with it, that conclusively closes the whole case.

    Is this a mental illness? The serial spammer is incapable of making a post without spamming one of his videos. Never an original thought, never any deviation from the cut and paste. I exactly exlained this above in post #3.

    "In this video I show the original Apollo 15 flag moving for 30 seconds. Using Jarrah's 66% slowed down footage theory, that equates to 20 seconds. White then proceeds to run past his own flag several times, yet is only able to move his flag for 4-5 seconds. That equates to 6-7.5 seconds adjusted up 150%. With White's flag, there is a totally different billowing movement, a rapid stop, and indeed a much more aggressive motion. No gentle back and forth prolonged swaying as per Apollo 15 flag."

    Perhaps he feels unable to see how the difference is not the same. Apollo 15 on the moon adjusted by HIS factor is 20 seconds. Earth flag adjusted by same factor is 8 seconds maximum. Another nail in this stupid coffin. Any other speed and the astronaut darts across the screen at a ridiculously unfeasible speed.

    Meanwhile as I stated above. He makes the idiotic claim about the "atmosphere explanation" yet never elaborates or explains what that actually means. Here, let me demonstrate.


    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.
     
  8. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    This is not the answer to my question. I asked you to explain how the flag would behave if someone were to trot by it at a forty five degree angle without touching it.

    When I hang a light piece of cloth from a ceiling light and trot by it at a forty five degree angle without touching it, the edge of the cloth first moves away and then back toward me after I've passed. It seems that my passing caused a draft toward the space directly behind me and air traveling in that direction pushed the cloth. That's exactly what the Apollo flag does.

    You maintain that I'm lying about the behavior of the light piece of cloth that I trot by. Tell us how it would really behave if someone were to trot by it at about a forty five degree angle without touching it.

    You seem to be trying to avoid this issue.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn6MTrin5eU
    (2:35 time mark)

    Initial Apollo 15 Flag Movement
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW9qcL4LiUg

    The flag that moved
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFMpmjEv9o0
     
  9. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    I just told you! The flag would behave similarly to White's flag.

    You are a liar. Not only does this not happen, not only are you unwilling to film it and upload it, it is extremely unlikely that in the split second one approaches such a cloth that you would be able to detect the movement in the first place.

    I know you are lying. JW did an experiment with the flag more likely to move and failed miserably. You cowardly avoid all these major issues.

    The ultimate in hypocrisy. Once again you re-spam the same videos. Next time you do this, I shall report the post.

    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.
     
  10. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    In your opinion would there be any difference between someone's trotting by at a ninety degree angle and at a forty five degree angle? You don't seem to think this difference is relevant.


    MoonFaker: The Flags Are Alive. PART 1.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr76qSQ9ZQQ

    It's hard to tell exactly how far the flag moves as there's no camera above the flag. We can see which direction it moves but we can't really see how far it moves. It looks to me that the flag moves away from him when he runs by it at the 8:39 time mark. It definitely moves back toward him after he runs by. This is similar to the Apollo flag movement and similar to the movement I got when I trotted by a light piece of cloth at a forty five degree angle. This seems to support the idea that the Apollo flag was in air.


    This video shows that the Apollo flag started moving away from him before he got close enough to touch it and it also shows that it's real movement and not camera bloom.

    The flag that moved
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFMpmjEv9o0


    This all points to the flag's being in air. So far you haven't put forth anything that disproves this. You just have the attitude that you have.


    Hey viewers:

    Read the the stuff in the comment section of this video after you watch it.

    Can't touch this (flag)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFsFu5ouXQ4
     
  11. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    And yet again more spammed videos! The latter flag is further away and less likely to move. The fact that the nearer one only moves when he is level with it, conclusively demonstrates that air is not the cause.

    It's easy to see when it begins and that is when he is level with the nearest edge!

    We can see it clearly billow. The Apollo 15 flag clearly does not.

    Stupid claim. It supports also his elbow striking the leading edge of it. Since we know for a fact that scientifically, air cannot possibly move something more than a few inches away, we can eliminate air as the cause.

    Pictures of objects in a wind tunnel, video of a man in a wind tunnel. Always a matter of a few inches. You are no truther.

    When do you think this cowardly person is actually going to respond to the two requests I made?

    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.
     
  12. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    This is wrong. If an object is wide enough, it will cause a wall of air to move an object from more than a foot away. Anyone can try it.

    Hang a light piece of cloth from a ceiling light and pass a plastic garbage can by it at a forty five degree angle. It will move the flag from more than a foot away.


    It's clear that you don't even believe your own arguments.
     
  13. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    No it is not. You are a liar.

    I showed categorically that you are full of it. Wind tunnel pictures prove you wrong. Jarrah White's flag billowing when he is level proves you wrong. In fact all you do is make the same claims over and over without ever backing them up. Film it and put it online.

    Absolutely nothing like a flag on the Moon in a vacuum and it won't do as you claim. Film it and put it online.

    It's clear you are a cowardly troll who is incapable of presenting coherent argument.

    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.
     
  14. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    I'd have to ask people for help. If it's so easy, why don't you do it and disprove it?
     
  15. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    Because you are the one who claims it. Jarrah White already did it and made a mockery of your spam. Answer these:-

    1. Did his flag billow?
    2. Did the Apollo 15 flag billow?
    3. Did his flag move before he reached it?
    4. Did his bedsheet move when he did his mad jumping routine less than 18 inches away from it?

    The answers are YES, NO, NO and NO. What are your answers? Tell the "viewers" why that doesn't conclusively destroy your claim. Then for getting up to the 10th time of asking:-

    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.
     
  16. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Translation:

    If I hang a light piece of cloth from a ceiling light and pass a plastic garbage can by it at about a forty five degree angle from a foot away, the light piece of cloth will move and show what I said to be wrong so I'd better not do it even though I'm experienced at making videos and Scott isn't. It will show that I don't even believe my own arguments.
     
  17. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    Cowardly actions once again. In short, every single post you make exhibits the complete opposite of what a truth gathering individual is about. Translation is you cannot put the video up because it contradicts the laws of wave dynamics and you are a liar. You also failed to answer the four questions or the 2 requests. Here they are once more:-

    1. Did his flag billow?
    2. Did the Apollo 15 flag billow?
    3. Did his flag move before he reached it?
    4. Did his bedsheet move when he did his mad jumping routine less than 18 inches away from it?

    The answers are YES, NO, NO and NO. What are your answers? Tell the "viewers" why that doesn't conclusively destroy your claim. Then for getting up to the 10th time of asking:-


    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.
     
  18. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Most conspiracy theories are patently incredible. Even the mafia, which was a real conspiracy,couldn't keep secrets

    Surely we all know by know by now that the USG can't keep secrets.

    How many people would have to know - and not tell?
     
  19. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  20. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Member

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    You didn't deal with it, you made some ludicrous unsupported hogwash statements. You have no concept of the numbers involved, unlike the user at your other spam-forum, Randomguy, who succinctly sums up the whole thing. Meanwhile, you ignore pretty much his entire posting history.

    By the way, don't you even contemplate dragging this thread off topic with your wall of spam crap!

    Now why not pretend to be a truther instead of the spammer you are:-

    1. Did his flag billow?
    2. Did the Apollo 15 flag billow?
    3. Did his flag move before he reached it?
    4. Did his bedsheet move when he did his mad jumping routine less than 18 inches away from it?

    The answers are YES, NO, NO and NO. What are your answers? Tell the "viewers" why that doesn't conclusively destroy your claim. Then for getting up to the 10th time of asking:-


    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.
     

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