The rich SHOULD pay a higher tax rate!!

Reposted, as it was conveniently ignored by leftists.

 

Any lobbying to eliminate competition in their favor, which is what they usually do, should be abolished.

Let me skip 10 steps of generalization and just say the following overall point (which I should change to my sig sometime):

Ultimately, what will destroy any society is the tendency towards bottling up of physical resources and power into the hands of the top few members of said society.

Geoist miniarchist capitalism is the only possible economic model that will sustain society. We have anything BUT that right now. We have tyrannical police/military state crony capitalism right now. Which means that we WILL FALL and crash and burn, soon.

 

Agreed. That's why I qualified it. Lobbying that works to eliminate stupid or onerous business regulation, however, is something I support.

We're not crashing and burning due to a failure to implement geoism.

 

I probably shouldn't have even waded into the waters of American history, they weren't economists and as such their thoughts on tax policy aren't that interesting. We were a fledgling nation who needed protectionist policies to compete with European nations.

Things have changed and obviously they haven't been around to learn from the experiences and sorry if that gets your panties in a wad.

 

First of all, NEVER post something as quoted to me that I didn't write. That is a direct violation of TOS of this site.

Second, I find it very interesting how - in response to my refutation of your position - that you now feel the need to de-emphasize what the Founding Fathers thought or knew, considering how many posts in this thread you offered that attempted to explain how the Founding Fathers would have been in support of Progressive Taxation and other liberal creations.

So which is it, Anikdote? Either they didn't know jack, and your statement that they 'would have supported Progressive Taxation' becomes the object of ridicule, having been supported by people who clearly didn't know economics....

(hahah!)

...or your statement was FOS with which to begin. It's a beautiful box you've built to house your double standard, and I'm more than happy to add more nails to it.

And this global competition about which you speak...has gotten weaker? Is no longer an issue? What's your point?

Things have 'changed', but your post is completely absent the explanation how. You've said that we used to need to protect ourselves from competition, but haven't explained how that is no longer the case.

So the panties in a wad in this thread clearly belong to someone in this conversation, Anikdote - and I'll give you a hint regarding who: I go commando.

Your attempt to claim what the Founding Fathers believed has been repudiated.

 

It was edited to reduce the size of the quote block filled with unnecessary tags.

It was speculation based on "taxation without representation" if they were alive today they'd see that some folks are represented disproportionately and as such should pay taxes reflecting this.

The more important point is I don't really care what there thoughts on the subject are and probably shouldn't have responded as I did because it's resulted in this dialog which is completely tangential to the OP.

We've gotten strong and don't need protectionist policies anymore. The founders thoughts on taxation were built around a budding economy, not a post industrial one... not that they'd have any clue what that meant.

I thought it was pretty obvious that we're not 13 colonies recently separated from an imperial power and that we're now the worlds most powerful economy. But I suppose some folks need to be told the grass is green.

Ok, I take it all back. This conversation was worth having.

Ok, cool. Want to talk about the OP now?

 

Always is, always will be as there is no rational answer.

Liberals want more income tax revenue, there is only one way and both Republicans and Democrats have stated it, but NOT this incompetent administration.

The insanely large tax code must be scrapped and a new simplified code written without all the deductions and loopholes AND REBATES. EVERYONE MUST participate. So the rich WILL pay in more dollars AND EVERY wage earner pays in something. So EVERYONE pays more. Tie that, WELD that, to spending cuts and the debt comes DOWN.

Ask the rich to pay more when they already pay almost all of it, is literally and liberally STUPID.

 

Big Business bribing government is always dangerous. We should outlaw that, and also outlaw any business regulations that are unjust/economically destructive.

Welllll actually....we are. This economic crisis will only get worse due to crony capitalism. Right-wing-style capitalism ALWAYS turns to crony capitalism eventually. Rightwingers usually believe that big businesses bribing government in some way is acceptable.

Left-wing capitalism would be more like Keynesian economics with welfare programs, but with private enterprise; but that would be more mildly left-wing. Extreme leftists are actually Marxists.

The only solution is geoist-style capitalism.

 

Eliminate government and there wouldn't be a tax problem.

 

I'll go with that. But first, we have to eliminate about 90% of the population. 90% of people are either too stupid and/or too immoral to be trusted within an anarchist society. Or trusted with anything, for that matter.

 

People can adapt.

 

eh, (*)(*)(*)(*) people in general. I hope a global nuclear holocaust happens anytime soon.

 

The problem with your argument is they don't receive different cars. Both got exactly the same car, just as both receive exactly the same rights and privileges of citizenship. What you're observing is that one group did more with what they received.

It's like selling two men identical fish. One does little with his and has a modest meal, the other adds his own resources and time to create a feast. It's like saying we should charge the second man more for his feast than the first for his modest meal, since after all the later received so much more benefit from the identical fish.

Government should charge folks for what government gives them, not for what they do with it.​

 

Actually that is the major cause of our economic woes. The banking problems are just a symptom of a deeper problem. Land value taxation (geoism) acts to naturally stabilize economies by keeping natural resources open to competition. It is more than I care to explain at the moment, but if you read a few short chapters from “Progress and Poverty” you will begin to understand why land speculation is so destructive.

Albert Einstein would've liked you to read these:

Speculation
The Root Cause of Recessions

"Men like Henry George are rare, unfortunately. One cannot imagine a more beautiful combination of intellectual keenness, artistic form, and fervent love of justice. Every line is written as if for our generation." — Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

 

I agree. Bottling up of both physical resources and power (which Big Government and Big Corporation are doing quite well right now), are ultimately the cause of collapse of any society, assuming said society doesn't fall due to warfare, disease, natural disasters, etc., before this process occurs.

If an actual geoist society were to exist, it would NEVER collapse, UNTIL some outside force destroyed it.

I'm honestly amazed at how few real geoists there are these days.

 

And, thank goodness, they do. The real issue from the left is, "Should we take everything they have and stone them?"

 

19% is far from "everything"....

In fact I payed more than that in 2011 as I am self employed (automatic 35%) and do not make enough to hire expensive tax professionals and attorneys to lower my rate.

If the "rich" actually paid 30%-35% we would not be having this discussion.
The poor also need to pay their fair share as having a negative income tax rate is a losing scenario for everyone involved.

The middle class is being crushed while the poor are paid to simply exist and the rich are laughing all the way to the bank...

 

Do you pay MORE income tax than the law requires? Should anyone? Republicans have asked for a long time that the tax code be completely rewritten. Democrats demand a higher RATE with all the tax breaks still in the law. Are you for that? You've already complained that the rich don't pay the 35% rate. With all the breaks still in place, why would anyone expect they'd pay a 40% rate? Or even the 19% you claim plus 5%. They pay every cent they are legally required to pay, SAME as you. You take every deduction available. And if you don't have a PRO doing your books and taxes, you're being foolish.

"The poor are being paid to simply exist." These are your words. WHY should anyone be PAID to exist. They are given money by the rich. PAID means EARNED. They earned nothing, they receive a gift, FROM THE RICH since it is, IN FACT, the rich that pay $9 out of every $10 income tax dollars the Federal govt collects.

68.5 million people, the rich and "nearly rich" pay 100% of all Federal personal income taxes. 68.5 million is 21.9% of a population of 312 million. how long can ANY country go with 21.9% paying ALL the bills?

The money you make and pay what YOU have decided you pay too much in taxes, How much of that money did you TAKE from someone else? Are you stealing the money you make OR earning it? I'd guess that you'd say you're earning every cent from HARD WORK! And I'd agree. Well so do the rich. 100% of them? No, but some poorer people rob and kill people for $14.00. There are terrible people in every strata.

The rich earn, not take their money, SAME as you do. You are part of the 21.9% that is supporting all the balls in the air, and you're complaining about others of the 21.9% rather than the 78% sucking the life out of you while contributing nothing..

 

You may be in the center of the mushroom cloud.

 

Oh, yes we would be having this discussion. Class warfare has nothing to do with reality. Senator Kerry and his wife with their millions in tax exempt bonds only got their tax nut down to 17% so giving 19% as any sort of reasonable median is ludicrous.

And, for the liberals, everything is the goal. Once you release the hatred it's impossible to get it back in the bottle.

 

"In fact I payed more than that in 2011 as I am self employed (automatic 35%) and do not make enough to hire expensive tax professionals and attorneys to lower my rate."


I forgot to add this in response to your post. WHAT AUTOMATIC 35% self employed tax rate? There is no automatic 35% tax rate for self employed. You pay income tax on your adjusted gross income same as anyone else. You do pay both halves of the PAYROLL TAX, but that is NOT income tax. And if you made $106,800.00 you STOP paying the PAYROLL TAX and your income tax rate STILL wouldn't be 35%
Maybe you were making a phony liberal post, maybe?

 

I pay a self employment tax which is ss and medicare along with what would normally be company matched as well as an income tax not to mention all the other little taxes the state, county, and fed throws in... Feel free to read up on it. Of course I still take my normal deductions and several other forms of reducing my liability but my CPA handles that - the tax code is so f'ed up. Also you kept throwing in your post about income tax - please show me where I said anything about a 35% income tax rate - I will wait (35% would have been my effective tax rate until my deductions were added in).

I do not understand why you are attacking my posts though, I am far from a liberal as I do not think we should be caring for those individuals that refuse to work but I do feel that the individuals on the top as well as on the bottom 50% should see their effective tax rates rise. No one should get more than they pay in at the end of the year, this includes the bottom 50% as well as the mega corporations.

I understand that the rich pay a large portion of the revenues for this country and maybe they will have to forgo that new Ferrari this year and wait until next year. Current debt levels are unsustainable for any period of time, the only way to reduce this is to increase taxes (on the top 10%-15% as well as on the bottom 50%) as well as to have drastic cuts in spending - especially on "entitlements".

99% of the loopholes and deductions need to go away - it would not only reduce most people's tax burden it would also allow the removal of several thousand IRS agents.

I leave you with an interesting set of graphs:

 

The self employed pay a 15.3% FICA tax on the first $106,800. in income. If you are self employed and make $50,000, you pay 15.3% FICA tax. If you are an employer, you pay 7.65% of each employees FICA tax and they pay the other 7.65% out of their paycheck.

NONE of that has anything to do with your personal income tax rate. And there is NO automatic self-employed 35% tax rate. You don't pay 35% until your income exceeds $380,000. And if your income is that high or higher, then your FICA tax liability stopped at $106,800.00

I'm not attacking your "posts." I'm attacking misinformation, no matter if posted by a liberal or a conservative.

And the increases liberals are demanding from 'the rich' amount to $70 billion. That is a mere 5.4% of only our present Democrat deficit. And only one half of one percent of our national debt. In short, it does not even approach being an answer to either the debt or the deficits.

And your, "who pays what in taxes," is from 2004. The rich pay a GREATER, and increasing, share every year. In 2009, the top 25% paid 87.03% of all Federal personal income taxes. $800 billion of $900 billion collected.

 

Addendum to the above post. After $106,800.00 in income the SS FICA tax liability ends. That is 12.4 of the 15.3%. The Medicare portion of FICA taxes continues, its is 2.9% of the 15.3% total..