The Texas shooting shows the futility of arming teachers

I tell you what.... You get the government to give theirs up and then we'll talk.

I don't believe it's the government's job to try to remove all risk from human life.... That's how you end up as a nation of subjects.

Take your lame attempt at guilt tripping me somewhere else.

 

Compare it to the US, for gods sake.
UK, Germany, France, Italy, etc etc. Average 1 murder per 100,000. America averages 5 times that.
You can cherry pick towns, cities, incidents, but the overall figures tell the real story.
Just admit you love your guns more than your kids and we can just accept the mass killings.

 

Our governments across Europe have all the guns, we don't fear them, we have democracy instead. The UK left the EU without any difficulty at all.
This is just another excuse to keep the guns you so love. You don't need them, you want them.

 

What I don't need is someone from across the pond to tell me what the hell it is that I need.

That's not the way we live over here. In 1776 we told the king to take that sort of noise and bug right off.

You can trust your government all you want my government has a history that my distrust is based upon.

 

You are wrong.
London is 58% white.
Not that skin tone matters…unless you’re a racist I suppose.

 

The American war of independence was to fight a power that was heading rapidly in the direction of abolishing slavery.
George Washington was a slave owner and protecting his interests.
However the brilliant slogan ‘no taxation without representation’ was arguably the first example of political slogan using, like ‘take back control’ or ‘make America great again’ or ‘get Brexit done’,
Distraction techniques.

 

It is hugely funny that some people rely heavily on governmental edicts like what are legal or illegal weapons, whilst declaring they need weapons to be protected from the government.

 

Now you're just trying to stop my argument and silence me.
On this thread about the mass murder of 19 small children, we have two guys arguing about who knows more about guns and their ability to kill.
I wish you could see how desensitised you have had to become in order to keep your beloved guns.

 

The Texas shooting shows the futility of arming teachers.

How? None of the teachers were armed.

 

Which people are those. There are people who support the second amendment and some that do not. Everything in between is just meaningless details.

 

I'm not trying to silence you at all. I'm expressing my opinion, just like you were expressing yours.... Except I'm not the one sitting here telling you what you need or want.

That would be you

 

The people who say the citizens need weapons to protect themselves from the government.

 

People like me. I believe that federal government has grown to be the most dangerous enemy of the American way of life. I don't want to kill anybody over it but I like that there is a disincentive for government to set off an authoritarian war against the public. Many many governments have done that. I think of it something like nuclear weapons providing the disincentive for nations to war with one another.

Was that the intention of the founders? Maybe but they couldn't include that in writing in the constitution. The founders were certainly rabidly fearful of authoritarianism and rightfully so. They framed it in a military sense given that the revolution was began with militias and people could understand that. Militias today have been replaced by National Guard but the protections of the second amendment provide other benefits and challenges as well. We should concentrate in dealing with the challenges instead of trying to destroy the benefits.

 

I have a theory about that, but unfortunately it's not going to be very helpful. My theory is that before Columbine, the first mass shooting in a school that I remember anyway, it's simply that those full of that much rage (who have always existed among us), just never even thought about shooting up a school. But after Columbine, that idea is already in their head and if they think it makes sense, depending on what their rage is focused on (and whether or not it is true or logical), then it becomes a top option.

Anyway, just my thoughts about why it became a "thing".

 

Nobody buys bombs. Bomb ingredients, yes- and no doubt, you likely have sufficient ingredients in your kitchen to build a simple one, if you know how- and it's not hard. Illegal, but not difficult, with things so ordinary and common they can't be regulated. Many kinds of explosive weapons can be made with everyday of-the shelf products.

People who want to kill in mass are often pretty intelligent. In a state of rage, but not stupid. Ever watch a video of mining, where a huge wall of stone is blasted away? That's not high explosives going off- it's farm fertilizer, and it's available in your country at the hardware and garden stores just as it is in mine. Won't tell you how to trigger it, but it's not hard or complicated.

Yes, America's murder rate is way too high on the list. That does not correlate with the number of guns- but with the state of mind and maturity of people. Every social problem we have today- drugs, gangs, prison populations, domestic violence stem from what can generally be described as broken families, and the lack of fundamental personal values that the children of solid families typically have. Happy people aren't violent; unhappy people will produce many that are- and the promotion of the concept of entitlement and being owed a good life, which may have superficial good intentions, only makes it worse. European societies are old, their cultural values established over centuries. America is new by comparison, and has a lot of growing to do. And it's not 50 times, more like 5 compared to settled Euro nations. There are many nations in the world with murder rates 5-10 times higher than the USA, too. The rate in the UK is about 1.2 compared to the US rate of 4.9, varying with year. I see that murder by knife is gaining popularity over there- quieter than guns, doesn't bring out the bobbies out so quickly. Few nations have a clean or pure history, and yours is not one to be proud of either. If we look at the history of the UK, we find that the British also have a lot of unsavory history. They don't mind killing, just liked to kill people other than Brits. I've studied the colonial history a bit; perhaps you should check out that closet too.

It's really stupid to think of guns as killing machines, because the number of guns ever used to kill any person is absolutely minute as a share of the number existing. Around 1 in ten thousand guns become murder weapons. I knew a man in Houston Texas years ago that owned more than 7,000 guns. He was wealthy, world-wide hunter, was fascinated by the history and art of firearms, and collected them. Never shot anyone.

It's clear that you for some reason hate America, and I guess we did send your boys packing many years ago- but we also came to your rescue not so long ago, and used our guns and gave many lives to help you remain a free nation. Seems you quickly forget both the transgressions of your own nation, and the sacrifice that others made to keep yours intact. Perhaps your nation and people have a lot of growing to do to, before you can claim righteousness.

It's people Tigger. People who are just violent, and people who pick fights trying to feel superior. We can all get along, if we just treat each other with respect, and act on facts rather than emotion.

 

Exactly why are so many foreigners on this forum attempting to meddle in our affairs? I vote that in order to be here, you should at the very least be a legal immigrant with a greencard, and to provide that (or proof of citizenship) before they'll approve new members.

 

That is funny.

We think we need them. Some of us believe that they represent a deterrence for government to become authoritarian. Nobody likes it when guns are misused.

 

Japan bombed Pearl Harbour, and shortly afterwards Germany declared war on America.
That was when the USA entered the war, not some altruistic impetus to help the UK, but to fight back against the country that had declared war on you.
It was quite a good thing that the UK stood alone against your enemy for years first of all, softening them up before the American military machine moved in.
The truth is the Allies were the allies, it was not a story of America saving the UK, but both collaborating to defeat a common enemy.

The American War of Independence, in many ways a righteous war because all colonialism is to be resisted, is not as straightforward a story as your history books might have you believe. The British were already engaged in conflict with France, and the French gave huge assistance to the American colonists, indeed they came to your rescue.
Indeed the American war of Independence could be described (as I have alluded to elsewhere) a war fostered by rich white slave owners anxious about their 'property'.
Like many things, the story of the Boston Tea Party is a nice way of hiding the terrible truth from the good citizens of America. The Tea Party was in 1773. The year before, in a case brought in the English courts, Somerset v Stewart, the Judge ruled that an individual could not be taken from England into enforced bondage. The case involved a slave brought from the colonies to England by his master. The slave owner wanted to take him back. During the case the Judge also said that English Law did not allow slavery. And it would need an Act of Parliament to change that position. (In fact there was an Act in 1807 but it abolished the transatlantic slave trade.)

In 1773, the colonists could see the writing on the wall. Ironically, the Land of the Free wanted their freedom in order to continue to enslave others. George Washington's own plantation, Mount Vernon, had 317 slaves.

The Proclamation Line was another important factor. The British did not want the colonists expanding west beyond this line which separated the colonists from many of the Native Americans. This, of course, upset the colonists who wanted to be free to steal the land and resources from others and make their fortunes. (This is why the vast majority of Native Americans fought on the British side. In fact few British fought in this war, it was mainly American loyalists, Native Americans and mercenary Germans - the British had more important concerns - the wars against France and Spain.)

Keeping slaves and western expansion were much more important than a tax on tea! Washington, was known as the "Town Destroyer" by the Iroquois. In fact the largest operation undertaken during the war was to destroy Iroquois villages and burn crops. (Putin must have been taking notes!)

This takes us back to the Declaration of Independence. Which led to the drafting of the Constitution and the subsequent 2nd Amendment of 1791 - the right to keep and bear arms. Something which is, of course, ludicrously outdated.

One feels the USA would be a much nicer, much calmer place if the British had not lost control of the place. Or indeed if Europeans hadn't arrive in the first place.

 

Actually fertiliser in the UK has inhibitors in it to stop it being used to make explosives.
We did this after the IRA started using it to kill innocent civilians.

 

The inarguably brilliant Sen. Ted Cruz at the NRA:

Cruz went on to blame 'virtual life' as a fundamental reason shootings are happening, saying it creates an 'absence of community and faith and love,' Fox News reported. 'Tragedies like the events of this week are a mirror forcing us to ask hard questions, demanding that we see where our culture is failing.'

I agree with every word of this. He's right, no matter what you think of him. There have always been "too many" guns in America. But there were no spates of school shootings in the 60's, 70's, or 80's. Or before. Not of this magnitude. Not even close.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(before_2000)

Things took off in 1999 with Columbine massacre and have gotten worse. What changed?

 

I don't fear the government. I do fear my fellow Americans, though my guns stay unloaded these days. Getting old, caring less.

Whatever the problem is, and we know what it is, it is not the number of guns. It's us. Too many of us are sociopaths and criminals. This didn't translate into mass shootings at schools until 1999. Most homicides are committed with handguns.

Interestingly, European societies that come close to US rates of gun ownership, in terms of gun owners per 100 people, (but with hunting rifles and shotguns rather than handguns), such as Finland and Norway, are among the safest societies internationally with regards to gun violence.
Researchers talk about “civilised” and “de-civilising” gun cultures, cultures where gun ownership is associated with traditional values of respect and responsibility, and others where gun availability largely empowers the criminally minded and unstable, adding to the violence and chaos. High levels of social cohesion, low crime rates and internationally high levels of trust and confidence in police and social institutions do appear to reduce levels of gun homicide. https://theconversation.com/us-shoo...f-gun-ownership-but-far-less-gun-crime-183933

 

Oh but you are, there can be no other explanation for you raising the fact that I come from Britain and that America told us to bug right off.

Why do you need a gun without a licence?

Dodged the point. Can I or can I not legally buy bombs in America?

If this is true its even more of a reason why you shouldn't freely hand out guns, do you really think the mentally unstable are safe with guns?
Guns kill people very easily, and from a distance keeping the user safe from attack, its why the military use guns and not baseball bats or hammers or any other crap excuse you proffer.
Guns kill people very quickly unlike bows and arrows, which is why the military don't use them either.
GUNS, Guns make killing very easy and very remote. That is why every sane country licences them.
Still you claim Americans are immature and nuts.

Americans came from European states, presumably with cultural values established, did you forget them all when you fell in love with guns, they do say love blinds us.

Apologies, I started writing something else and changed it. Yes I agree its only 5 times as high as the other first world countries who don't give idiots guns.

That knife crime is included in our 1/5th or yours figure. And guess what, even then we increased stop and search and made carrying a knife illegal, we didn't open shops selling knives with a sales man to tell you which ones kill the best.

Guns have no other purpose than killing, they are machines for killing. No one in their right mind would deny that most people don't use their guns to kill people, but enough people do. I don't want to deprive hunters of their guns or hobby shooters, I want to deprive angsty youths and those with mental issues of their guns, but even that relatively moderate idea is met with shock and horror, such is your fear someone might take your precious guns away.

Don't be childish. I love America, that's why I hate to see you letting mad gunmen kill your children. Why I tried to talk sense last time this happened and why I despair this time.
Incidentally I'm coming back to the states next May, lovely people, those I met last time.

 

I'm sorry I have to disagree with this. America provided arms, food and aid to Britain long before pearl harbour. America was reluctant to join yet another European war only 20 years after losing 116,000 young men in the first one.
But Roosevelt was very keen to help where he could, such was the special relationship back then.

 

Maybe this is the difference?
Firearms regulation in Finland
incorporates the political and regulatory aspects of firearms usage in the country. Both hunting and shooting sports are common hobbies. There are approximately 300,000 people with hunting permits,[1] and 34,000 people belong to sport shooting clubs.[2] Over 1,500 people are licensed weapons collectors.[3] Additionally, many reservists practice their skills using their own semi-automatic rifles and pistols after the military service.

 

The right wing "logic" only leaves one option: Arm the children.