Thousands rally against Israel in Istanbul

Keeping the land gained during a war is illegal. But we don't need to argue about that, let it be enough that Israel still has the 56%. Your earlier calculation of 1/16 is a joke.
You have strange ways of figuring.

 

1. It's still "during the war", the Palestinians started it and have not accepted peace, they are still at war with Israel. When land for peace was offered to them by UN 242 resolution, they snubbed it, when land for peace was offered to Arafat, he walked away. They want land and war, they don't want land and peace.

2. It's not 1/16th, it 0.16% (1/6th of 1%) of the regional land which includes all arabs.... But if you want to take Palestinians only into account, you should at least have the decency of including Jordan, which was Palestine and you should also take into account the fact that all Israel got in the partition was the Negev desert, unpopulated, unsuitable for life and agriculture at the time.

 

Actually, (for the Antisemite and Conspiracy trolls), Jews have been in Palestine continuously for 3000 years, despite the number at times being small. In the 16th and 17th centuries Jews had reached a high of about 25%.

Jews, in fact, have been the largest consituent of the population in Jerusalem since about 1840.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Jerusalem (After 1291)

"...5. Present condition of the City: (1906 edition)
Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. The total population is estimated at 66,000. The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures:
Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the Nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly Half the present population...""

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Growth of Jerusalem 1838-Present

....... Jews Muslims Christians Total
1838 6,000 5,000 3,000 14,000
1844 7,120 5,760 3,390 16,270 ..... ..The First Official Ottoman Census
1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030 .... ..Second
1905 40,000 8,000 10,900 58,900 .....Last, detailed in Catholic Encyclopedia above
1948 99,320 36,680 31,300 167,300
1990 353,200 124,200 14,000 491,400
1992 385,000 150,000 15,000 550,000

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm
Link expired but all derived from Ottoman censuses not in dispute.​

BEWARE "Zionist quotes"!

Some are outright fakes or misattributions, some just out of Context.
The bizarro "peace activist, Poet" website Grau used specializes in OUT of Context, really short, one liners and others like the above.
Note the [Dishonest Parentheticals] and abbreviated quote.
The "quotes" are Uncited as to source, such as a book, or publication.
Just the usual:
Grau found some obscure POS that is anti-Israel/Joo, and just vomits it up.

Here is the fuller quote, with Context, from Wikipedia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl#Writings

"....In his novel, Herzl wrote about an electoral campaign in the new state. He directed his wrath against the nationalist party, which wished to make the Jews a privileged class in Israel. Herzl regarded that as a betrayal of Zion, for Zion was identical to him with humanitarianism and tolerance—and that this was true in politics as well as religion...

Altneuland was written both for Jews and non-Jews: Herzl wanted to win over non-Jewish opinion for Zionism.[84] When he was still thinking of Argentina as a possible venue for massive Jewish immigration, he wrote in his diary:

"When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly ... It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example ... Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us"[85]...
- - - - - -
​

So we have the usual, terribly/dishonestly abridged "quote" [with inserts] that change the actual meaning.

Jabotinsky could be more assertive but, again, your BS website is big on one-liners: some not even complete sentences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky#Integrated_state_with_Arabs
Integrated state with Arabs

..."We do Not want to eject even one Arab from either the left or the right bank of the Jordan River. We want them to prosper both economically and culturally. We envision the regime of Jewish Palestine [Eretz Israel ha-Ivri] as follows: most of the population will be Jewish, but Equal rights for All Arab citizens will not only be guaranteed, they will also be fulfilled."[17]

Jabotinsky was convinced that there was no way for the Jews to regain any part of Palestine without opposition from the Arabs. In 1934, he wrote a draft constitution for the Jewish state which declared that Arabs would be on an Equal footing with their Jewish counterparts "throughout all sectors of the country's public life."
The two communities would Share the state's duties, both military and civil service, and enjoy its prerogatives. Jabotinsky proposed that Hebrew and Arabic should enjoy equal status, and that "in every cabinet where the prime minister is a Jew, the vice-premiership shall be offered to an Arab and vice versa."[25]
​

Oucher
+

 

O.k., so they got a little bit for giving up most of their possessions, especially their homes and land.

 

I just finished reading this nice article about Palestine. That is the true history!

http://www.palestineinformation.org/history.htm

 

LOL al-Jazz-eera.
'Palestine Solidarity Committee - Seattle'
(probably an Arab couple selling falafel from a truck)
Should you wish to debate anything specific (LOFL) be glad to shut you up: the 100% usual. Non-conversant.
I just gutted your buddy, and he's willing to some work, however clownish.
+

 

Here is another one. An amazing book, highly recommended on amazon, check it out

https://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Leon-...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1503973895&sr=8-1

 

Well, it's a start. Here's more from the same Peel Commision report:

THE PEEL COMMISSION OF 1937 FOUND ARAB CLAIMS THAT JEWS STOLE THEIR LAND AS BASELESS. Land shortages were due more in part to massive Arab immigration to Palestine from other Arab countries than to Jewish land purchases. Chapter IX of the Peel Commission states,

"The shortage of land is due less to purchase by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was bought."

Them unthankful Palestinians...

 

Lets forget for a moment that all the allegations regarding the ownership of land in Palestine, the ethnic and religious majorities, as well as who was here when and for how long, need to be proved in order to be accepted as premises for a dialogue.

Lets also forget for a moment that international law is not what it seems to be to the naked eye.

For now lets concentrate on the "56%". 56% of what?

This was the original Mandate Palestine:


The British - violating the much celebrated international law - generously gave away more than 60% of the Mandate to the Hashemite Bedouins from the Arabian Peninsula. The Hashemites also received the throne of Iraq, by the way, but they haven't be able to keep their behinds on it. Israel now sits on about 20% of the land of Mandate Palestine. Most of this land belongs to the Hashemite colonists from Arabia, but strangely enough nobody seems to have a problem with about half of historic Palestine (the administrative unit*, not the Mandate) being illegally occupied by non-Palestinian Arabs.

*

 

Let me be more precise, and give it to you in a nutshell.
I know this stuff cold.

In 1922, in violation of the promise to the Jews, the Brits split off 77% of the Mandate (Jordan) and gave it as spoils to a Sunni/Saudi/Hashemite prince to rule over some Arabs. Many were 'palestinians.' (whatever that is)

Leaving 23% to be divided yet again, incl another Arab state (Palestine II)
That was divided 13/10 for the Jews.
Of course, Half the Jews 13% was the the near-empty, thought-useless, Negev Desert, owned by No Arab.
IOW, Jews got about 6.5% of the usable original Mandate, and 28% of usable 'Lesser Mandate Palestine', aka 'Palestine.'
+

EDIT to immediately below (not worth another post)
Grau is your anti-Israel/joo comrade in arms.
And of course you whiffed on my challenge to debate anything specific from your al-Link.
Jazz is/remains non-conversant on this topic.

 

Who is my buddy?

 

Just finished reading about the real exodus....

The real exodus
When the tale of Jewish illegal immigrants sailing for Palestine was turned into a bestselling book and film, it came to symbolize the birth of a nation. But was the story true? Sixty years on, Linda Grant separates fact from fiction.

Linda Grant
Saturday 30 June 2007 00.03 BST First published on Saturday 30 June 2007 00.03 BST

On the terrace of an Italian restaurant in a small town in central Israel, two men have had a good lunch and, over coffee, start to reminisce about events 60 years earlier. "Remember how we nearly missed the ship because I couldn't find the ticket to get my cleaning out of the Chinese laundry?" one says. "And that trip we tried to take to Montreal until we got a message to go back to Baltimore?" says the other. The memories come flooding back: of the crew member who turned up at the pier in a chauffeur-driven limo, dressed in a captain's suit; the ship's chef who gave up a radio cookery show to join the voyage.
The other diners are oblivious to the identity of the frail old man who lights yet another cigarette and then fixes the listener, his friend Avi Livney, with piercing eyes. He is 83-year-old Ike Aronowitz, former captain of the illegal immigrant ship Exodus. Who would recognise him? He is known to the world in an entirely different incarnation: as the blond, blue-eyed Paul Newman, who played Aronowitz in Otto Preminger's 1960 film Exodus, based on Leon Uris's blockbuster novel of the same name.

Both film and book tell the story of the postwar illegal immigration ships bearing a human cargo of Holocaust survivors who tried to break the British blockade of Palestine in the last days of the Mandate. It was an incident that would become part of the founding mythology of Israel, legendary because the fictionalised account came to symbolise the birth of a nation and generated international sympathy and support. But it was a fairy tale.

Read on here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/30/israelandthepalestinians.lindagrant
----------
It is still an incredible story of hope and despair. But we now know the Jews eventually made it
to their promised land.
All we now need is a similar success story of the Pals also getting their own little country. I feel the Israelis owe them that. Then they all can be happy.

 

Have the Jews been thankful for their generous 56% gift?

 

Yes. They're holding on to it tight, and have repelled many aggressors who wanted to take their massive regional holdings of 0.1% of land away from them

 

Invaded illegally and then surrendered to end the reprisal war with Egypt.

What about Lebanon?

The offer was insufficient. Its like some school-yard bully saying: "give me your lunch money or I'll punch your face" then claiming it was the kids fault for getting punched in the face because he did give his lunch money.

 

What promise to "the Jews"?
Who is "the jews"?
How can the Brits promise something to which they have no title?

 

The point i was making was that Israel has returned 99% of the land it conqured in defensive wars and is willing to return the rest under right conditions.

Nothing in your response contradicts these facts which makes your previous claim about "expansionist" Israel totally baseless and bogus.

 

Err, 1937 was prior to the creation of Israel...?
It was the creation of Israel that created the Arab refugees and dis-entitlement over the land

You seem to have missed a bit:

"The Palestine Order in Council and, if necessary, the Mandate should be amended to permit of legislation empowering the High Commissioner to prohibit the transfer of land in any stated area to Jews, so that the obligation to safeguard the right and position of the Arabs may be carried out. "​

However did they arrive at this conclusion from the evidence provided in your quote?
Discuss

 

The invasion of the Sinai was not defensive. In any event, anyone gives up land "under the right conditions". "Right" for whom? Themselves I presume. But is that "right" from an objective viewpoint.

Israel is currently expanding into the occupied territories.

 

Dude, I took you to task for your repeated claim that Israel is the closest thing to Nazism. The body of "proof" you managed to come up with literally consisted of Israel being a Jewish state with kibbuts which is of course utterly laughable and the claim that it conducts expansionist policy, which fell apart given that Israel has voluntarily returned 99% of the land it captured.

Case closed, you can keep splitting hairs all you want, i am not interested in debating them but i wouldn't recommend making absurd statements like Israel is like Hitler's Germany, it makes you look kind of ridiculous.

 

The Balfour Declaration.
And Britain/the allies WON the Ottoman Empire from the Turks.
99% of it went to the Arabs.
No one has much problem with ANY other of the division of the lands: 'Jordan', 'Iraq', 'Lebanon' etc, etc.
'Jordan' and 'Iraq' were given to Sunni/Saudi/Hashemite Princes as spoils.
There were no plebiscites. Faisal was recognized as head negotiator for the Arabs, and by-and-large did very well for them. Ruling over other peoples such as the Kurds.

And of course there was UN predecessor: the League of Nations.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp

The Palestine Mandate
The Council of the League of Nations:​

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine; and
...
Whereas His Britannic Majesty has accepted the mandate in respect of Palestine and undertaken to exercise it on behalf of the League of Nations in conformity with the following provisions; and
...
confirming the said Mandate, defines its terms as follows:

ARTICLE 1.
The Mandatory shall have full powers of legislation and of administration, save as they may be limited by the terms of this mandate.

ART. 2.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 3.
The Mandatory shall, so far as circumstances permit, encourage local autonomy.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

ART. 5.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of the Government of any foreign Power.

ART. 6.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

ART. 7.
The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.
<Snip>
​

And of course, Faisal agreed to it early on, even before the Mandate.
And they agreed to ALL of lesser Palestine being the Jewish National home.
That's right!
the 1919 agreement BETWEEN the Arab state and 'Palestine'/the Jewish one.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...aisaltext.html
or take your pick https://www.google.com/search?q=Fai...19&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Faisal-Weizman agreement 1919​

His Royal Highness the Emir FAISAL, representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of HEJAZ, AND Dr. Chaim Weizmann, representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist Organization, mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people, and realising that the surest means of working out the consummation of their national aspirations, is through the closest possible collaboration in the development of the Arab State and Palestine, and being desirous further of confirming the good understanding which exists between them, have agreed upon the following articles:

Article I
The Arab State and Palestine in all their relations and undertakings shall be controlled by the most cordial goodwill and understanding and to this end Arab and Jewish duly accredited agents shall be established and maintained in their respective territories.

Article II
Immediately following the completion of deliberations of the Peace Conference, the definite boundaries BETWEEN the Arab State and Palestine shall be determined by a commission to be agreed upon by the parties hereto.

Article III
In the establishment of the Constitution and Administration of Palestine all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantees for carrying into effect the British Government’s Declaration of the 2nd of November, 1917 (Balfour Declaration-SEH).

Article IV
All necessary measures will be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasants and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights, and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.
< snip >​

But between the Wars, Britain got more pro-Arab, and Palestine was divided yet again to please them by UN Resolution 181.
So, of all the arbitrary Ottoman break-up states, only Israel was by a UN vote, and half what they were promised.
Nonetheless, the Arabs rejected it.
Alas...
+

 

I'm not sure what a vague excerpt from the Peel commission has to do with the forcible expulsion of Palestinians from their land by Zionist Terrorist Gangs and extremists. The excerpt is additionally very vague and replete with self serving bureaucratic jargon one would expect from a duplicitous Colonial power trying to gloss over genuine tensions to be expected when you betray one party (native Palestinian Arabs) in favor of well connected foreign immigrants.
It has been proven over & over again that the British were not honest brokers by their abrogation of the McMahon Agreement & other egregious foibles:

"The McMahon Agreement"
http://www.historylearningsite.co.u...ddle-east-1917-to-1973/the-mcmahon-agreement/

EXCERPT "The McMahon-Hussein Agreement of October 1915 was accepted by Palestinians as a promise by the British that after World War One, land previously held by the Turks would be returned to the Arab nationals who lived in that land. The McMahon-Hussein Agreement was to greatly complicate Middle East history and seemed to directly clash with the Balfour Declaration of 1917."
CONTINUED

Finally, Jewish - Arab relations were much better than you would expect until the arrival of Zionist Terrorist Gangs:

“Top Ten Myths about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict”
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/

EXCERPT "Myth #1 – Jews and Arabs have always been in conflict in the region.

Although Arabs were a majority in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there had always been a Jewish population, as well. For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine for their own, to create a “Jewish State” in a region where Arabs were the majority and owned most of the land.

The British Hope-Simpson report of 1930 similarly noted that Jewish residents of non-Zionist communities in Palestine enjoyed friendship with their Arab neighbors. “It is quite a common sight to see an Arab sitting in the verandah of a Jewish house”, the report noted. “The position is entirely different in the Zionist colonies."CONTINUED

 

In spite of all your self congratulatory verbiage etc, you've done nothing to refute the fact that Palestine was overwhelmingly Arab populated until the invasion of & expulsion by FOREIGN Zionist Terrorist Gangs.

It even continues today:

"Revealed: Nearly 3,500 settlement homes built on private Palestinian land"
http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page//.premium-1.808442
EXCERPT "These illegal structures could be legalized under Israel's contentious 'land-grab' law, whose validity is now being determined by the High Court of Justice

There are 3,455 residential and public buildings built on private Palestinian lands in the West Bank, according to Civil Administration data. These illegal structures could be legalized under the expropriation law, whose validity is now being determined by the High Court of Justice in response to Palestinian petitions against the law."CONTINUED



Keep trying...

 

You had NO answers to my extensive history or quote-busting of your garbage, #628.
You got Gutted.
So instead, you post a new/modern News article as some sort of delusional 'rebutta!,' and say "Keep Trying"?
Medic!
+

 

​

Banning the return of +700.000 Arab civilians from going home because they are Arab...
that is a violation of the Balfour Declaration and all kinds of international laws ever since.