Tories pledge whole life term for premeditated murder of a child

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by alexa, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is a change to the law which previously required it to be multiple children or sexually or sadistically motivated.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...hild-will-mean-life-without-parole-say-tories

    My first thought was that the intent is to bring back the death Penalty which the Home Secretary has already said she wants, though that was later changed to just wanting to terrify criminals. I can imagine it - death rights given, on the chair, bag over head...ten minutes later 'Only joking. You can go back to your full term live in jail'.

    So looking at how this far right Tory party works. First no remission. Long argument about how you could possibly suggest these killers were human and should be thought of as such. Then maybe someone mentions it on Question time. They do not deserve to live is strongly suggested and manages to get a following. They bring back the Death Sentence. Then the next thing, Death Sentence and backwards and backwards so that the death sentence is eventually available for disagreeing with the Government.

    I agree with the death sentence under no conditions. First we kill innocent people and secondly I believe the only reason we have the right to take another life is self defence - and no exaggeration of that.

    Taking away ones liberty and is the punishment. Whether such a person should ever be released would depend on many things, not least whether they are still a danger for society...but that is by the by. I do not expect anyone to have any concern about such a person. What I am interested in is whether people think this could be a prelude to reintroduction of the Death Penalty.

    The intent is also to make other sentences harsher. This is a waste of human lives and public resources. I think we have the most people in jail in Europe and are loath to give them the help needed to settle back into society - that is both psychological and job help so that when they come out they stay out.

    Comments?
     
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    I am not in favor of harsh punishments, except for the very most extreme awful crimes, but the punishments for many of these crimes in the UK are woefully lax.

    One might THINK that with a brutal rape the perpetrator would get at least 7 years, and then be DEPORTED after that, if they were only in the country on a visa, but such is often not the case in the UK.

    Perhaps start with the most egregious crimes first.

    Eventually Britons are going to become sick and tired of foreigners coming in from other parts of the world and taking advantage of them.

    I think the real issue is some of the judges, not the laws themselves. They need to stop seeing being a migrant as a cause for sympathy, and recognize that brutal rapes are serious crimes and deserve more than just a couple years of punishment.

    Read about the sentences that those Telford and Rochdale grooming perpetrators got.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...chdale-grooming-gang-remain-in-prison.533682/
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  3. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    The OP is about a possible life sentence without the possibility of parole for premeditated murder of a child under 16.
    It's not about migrants being in the UK on visas, committing crimes, taking advantage of the system, or judges being irrationally sympathetic towards foreigners (I'd like to see a reliable source for that claim if there are any)..
    Why not try to stay on topic? It can't be that hard.
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    I believe the two are ultimately very connected. (Particularly beneath the surface, and in the long-term)

    No society can maintain lax punishments and an attitude of caring rehabilitation while opening up their doors to the rest of the world. It's simply not sustainable and won't last.

    You want your liberal values, but it seems you're doing everything you can to make sure those social conditions that are the background to fostering those liberal values don't last.

    As the UK becomes more "diverse", like the US, crime rates will rise, and the country will have harsher punishments. It's because you broke down social cohesion. The conditions of resentment, the "us versus them" mentality, and a sort of survival mode as poverty levels increase, where society becomes less altruistic and forgiving because they don't feel they can afford be.
    Plus more problems, then society will feel like harsher measures are needed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  5. James Knapp

    James Knapp Well-Known Member

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  6. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    That's the biggest problem. Dead is dead. Misjudgments can't be reversed then.
    On the other hand, only the death penalty can guarantee that a felon never repeats his crime.
     
  7. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't discussed in the OP, wasn't discussed in the article.
    Suggesting that the UK is opening/has opened its doors to the rest of the world shows that you're not really familiar with their politics.
    Simply off topic.
     
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't think we can separate the two.

    The fact that the crime rate is on the increase, and the fact of who is doing it, certainly does have some bearing on the public's attitudes about the level of punishment there should be.

    There's going to be a push for tougher punishments now, and I don't think it's just going to be coming from Conservatives.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  9. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Lets look at a little bit more of the longer term. Sexual violence rates are higher than they were 5 or 10 years ago.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46984559

    (And yes, I do have an explanation, but to get into it will take this thread very off-topic, and I don't think Caligula would be happy with that)
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  11. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    With respect to the above article and the Tories, might it be worth considering the epidemic of knife crime within the UK and in particular within the teen population and trying to combat that by bringing down the age from 21 to 16 as well. Gang violence is predominately premeditated so attempting to combat that with very stiff penalties is not such a bad idea.

    Anyway quite happy to see any child killer swing indeed I’m reasonably happy for most (premeditated ) murderers swing.
     
  12. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    You can post off topic material in any way you want, I'm not mod. What's utterly absurd is that our 'merican friends here time and again show how little they understand about other countries' domestic affairs and in their typical knee jerk reaction relate everything either to open borders, mass migration, millions flooding into Europe every month or this preposterous socialised hell hole narrative. As if posting a single case example of an American who had bad medical treament in France could be representative of the French health care system.
    Let me guess, the reason for rising crime rates in the UK is immigrants. Simple explanations by and for simple minded people.
     
    alexa likes this.
  13. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was about to give you a like for the first sentence. It has been thought that the UK which is given a vote of conscience on this would never go back to the death penalty because it is known we killed the innocent and will kill the innocent. However I am not sure at all that that would bother some right now.

    There was an interesting program on a what makes a murderer I saw last night.

    The guy in question had an unusually small sector of the brain which deals with fear. He hardly ever felt fear so that did not hold him back. He had an unusually large sector for seeking reward. In the top 1%. He took to the career of bank robbing which he was very successful with and never killed anyone - because when he showed his gun they did what he asked. The man he killed was a bouncer who had just badly hurt his friend. He went to his car, got his gun and shot him dead. They thought that his lack of empathy and his desire for reward brought that on. Nothing they said is such a good reward as revenge.

    At 3 years old his mother took him and put him in a children's home. They took him back to the closed place and he could still remember how he felt. They believed that due to the abandonment and neglect he experienced as a child he shut his feelings down. That with a genetic propensity had resulted in him developing into a psychopath which meant that not only was he getting revenge when he killed the guy but he not having empathy he could not feel for him so it was easy. He spent 40 years in jail not least for escaping on a few times - once to go to visit his mum before she died which they would not let him do. Despite everything she had done he loved her most of all and believed she must have been suffering and suffered enormously to let him go. He had managed to escape to see her before she died and was really chuffed about that.

    1% of the population are apparently psychopaths. 25% of the prison population are. They seemed to think it was a combination of having the gene for psychopathy and the experience of neglect and abandonment which brought the psychopathy gene to life as well as the unusually small part of his brain which deals with fear and large which deals with reward.

    For a long time psychiatrists have believed psychopaths cannot be helped. A British psychiatrist however found a way to heal them. Everyone said they had changed and started caring for others. The British Government stopped it 'for lack of money'.

    I strongly believe we should not release people who are a danger to society. However I also believe we can but don't heal them and in the last 20 years or so it has got much worse with ever increasing attitude on punishment rather than rehabilitation.

    When we become a bit more sane and compassionate again I think there is much we can do.

    Just in case - I do not recommend anyone try to heal psychopaths!!! This psychiatrist said it was at times a very scary process and he had guards just outside.
     
  14. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So do you agree with my suggestion that this is Priti moving towards getting the idea of the death penalty back. I am not sure what you are talking about with bringing down the age from 21 to 16. Would I be right in thinking you would have them hang too. It has to be remembered the massive change the Police did in Glasgow on this by getting a rounded program - working on giving them something positive to live for ;) From what I hear in some places gangs are all that is on offer.
     
  15. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

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    Article doesn't even mention the death penalty. Which I'm also against btw.

    I take it then that you're against life imprisonment for premeditated child murder? Because that's the only issue here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  16. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    as per the articles classification of “adult”

    As for your suggestion about Patel or the Government, no I don’t see that at all. The UK voters would never agree to it plain and simple.

    And yes, these teenage gang members that plan knifings and murders of others, I’m pretty cool with that. I couldn’t give a rats arse if they are strung up. However I may feel though, it will never happen because despite your thinking in the other thread the UK is not that kind of country, we are a centrist / liberal democracy; and obviously have issues because of that which we don’t yet have a viable narrative for.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  17. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    Yeah....it’s a puzzler, but then again it doesn’t mean we have to adopt the ostrich position.
     
  18. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    Science is not bound to any country. He should seek support on the international market if the Brits don't trust him.

    Such guys end up in lifetime imprisonment. Even in countries where the term "Life Sentence" means about 20 to 30 years in prison. This is just for normal killers, not for the mentally ill.
     
  19. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That isn't true. I have always heard that the majority of Brits would favour Capital Punishment. It has been Parliament who has kept it out and as I said in particular because we know we killed innocents and there have been plenty released since we made it illegal. There is another reason I don't like the death penalty. We had it when I was young and I found out when I was very young. I was both horrified and terrified. Not that I thought I would kill anyone but that even then it was obvious to me that they could make a mistake and kill me.

    pretty cool with killing teenagers? Even in the old days we did not kill anyone under 18. I seem to remember there was a instance of two people one 17 one 18 and it may have been that the 17year old was more responsible but it was only the 18 year old who was killed.
    Well as far as the desire for the Death Penalty you are wrong. Oh I am wrong

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822

    Unbelievably in 83, 75% of British people wanted the death penalty.

    Nonetheless we are now in populism which seems to be to be the lowest common denominator. I suspect people like Patel who like the death Penalty will soon be revving up support for it.
     
  20. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did Glasgow adopt an Ostrich position? It most certainly did not. Glasgow used to be the murder capital of Europe. They did proper research on what was causing it and offered to help people out. The police told them they were there to get them help. They could choose that or they could choose to carry on as they were. If they did that they would find no sympathy and could expect harsh punishments. As you must know this has been a great success.

    When you have children who have only known gangs all their lives which is the case in some places in London...began I believe with Thatcher when we gave up on trying to offer everyone a chance. If you a born into such a situation that is your life. Many of them have developed an alternative economy built on drugs. Regardless of how much their parents try, this is what the kids face. If you are not part of a gang you are in danger just from that. Parents from these areas are doing as much as they can to get some change.

    You can choose to kill people who are born into such an environment for acting it out but I would say the first crime is presenting them with that. Work to change that and the problem will get solved. Capital punishment has been shown again and again not to be a deterrent so it is just more killing for people, often children who never were offered any other chance. Never mind Labour will change that.

    I am off to watch the BBC debate now.
     
  21. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This was over two decades ago and I would suggest that probably this man was gifted. Most psychiatrists tend to pop their patients in a box and control them - I might be being a bit harsh but always being a psychiatrist has not demanded self knowledge. This guy I think must have been extremely genuine to reach these people. However he did show that they could be reached. Like I said at least a couple of decades ago and there is still a big difference in how different Europeans countries treat their prisoners so possibly some added some of this to their way of working with people. Unfortunately during this time the UK has been tossing more and more people into prison both parties trying to show how they will be no more human with these sub humans. We have not had the attitude of some of the better European countries despite what some have suggested.

    https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/07/13/research-into-the-mental-health-of-prisoners-digested/

    I am not sure what you are talking about here. Was the guy I spoke about a normal killer or mentally ill to you because I think to the authorities he was a normal prisoner. Do you believe those who are mentally ill get longer sentences?

    The UK prisons have far more people with mental illness than general society and this is particularly so for women who studies suggest do much worse than men from a mental health position. The UK for a very long time was doing absolutely no research into mental health in prison - goes with just punishing them.

    In the US I know to get off for being mentally ill, you have to have not known that you were not allowed to do what you did so basically that would require a mental disability rather than mental illness.

    In the UK it probably is pretty similar. We have prison mental hospitals where people can go when they are totally luny - and probably stay much the same.

    What I was suggesting was idealist and would require an improvement and mental healing in society at large....but it is most certainly within our ability.

    and for the people who most people want to kill, child murderers, pedophiles and others who people in general consider the scum of society and people they would like to see run over by a bus or some other painful death and in particularly people who in a society which does not have a death sentence may be liable for release and may as we know commit again, what do you do. I think our problem is that we see it the wrong way. We believe they are bad and need to be punished. If so it is clear that punishment does not work as it is very well known that let them loose and there is a big change, though not always, that they will do it again. As I said the problem imo is that we see the situation wrong. We see the person who knows right and wrong and has chosen wrong rather than the deeply wounded person. Although not everyone who is sexually abused as a child goes on to be one I know when I was looking at this many years ago that it was believed that just about every pedophile had once been the victim.

    So, and I think they do this in some states in the US, though only after their sentence I think. I would like to see people like this kept inside until it was known that they were safe to go out and for some that might be never but I think they should not live in the general population of the prison but in some genuine rehabilitation unit. Obviously that would need a great deal of work to set out and maybe some countries are doing it. In the UK however it still is a belief that they have chosen to do this and so are 'bad' and must pay a price and then if that price does not work that such people should be killed - You said yourself that will stop them doing it again. It would but it would not make us a more humane society with strong mental health in the population at large and if we want to build societies where this kind of behaviour eventually stops happening that is what we need to work towards..
     
  22. HoundofHades

    HoundofHades Member Past Donor

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    Question: So why the hell not deport him straight away - if anyone knew where he was from, which is unlikely? :rolleyes: - without any cost to the taxpayers for his 7 years of incarceration?

    Answer: Because he'd be back here on the next plane out.
     
  23. HoundofHades

    HoundofHades Member Past Donor

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    OP

    Yet another Johnson lie because there aren't enough prison places; we'd need at least 4 new prisons . . . as well as the '200 new hospitals'? Once a liar, always a liar!! It just shows how much raw contempt they have for us that they think we'll believe all these preposterous 'pledges'. I'll be wasting my vote, but I will not vote for liars nor for traitors to govern my country.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019

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