U.S. rejects Poland's offer to give it Russian-made fighter jets for Ukraine

We know now that the first card China will play when they go after Taiwan will the the nuclear threat.
Biden’s handlers with the help of steerage from NATO members has done a reasonable job with Russia vs NATO.
Ukraine’s mistake was not building up it’s defenses when it had the chance. It was only a matter of time until Russia invaded.
I hate to think Vlad can retire after this and everything will go back to normal. Russian and it’s new client states should be starved into submission.
Putin’s “reasonable” demand: “I robbed the bank, and I want to keep few branches and keep the money. Is that cool with you? No? Then I’ll keep bombing civilians until it is.”

 

Yes, we need regime change in Russia.

Now, the news reports out of Ukraine are definitely propaganda, but it seems like Russia bit off more than it can chew, and the war doesn't seem to be going well for them.

 

Because Russia just waltzed right into Ukraine, declaring war, and now that the Russians demand that Ukraine must remain neutral regarding the west instead of joining NATO? I mean at this point why would the Ukrainians NOT join an alliance dedicated to keeping Russian hostility in check? And why should Ukraine give up territory that Russia can't even secure for themselves? A lot of angry Ukrainian people will NOT bow to Russian demands.

 

Mutually assured destruction (MAD) guarantees that we will destroy the world if we ever confront Russia directly with war. So, let's not do that.

 

It does not guarantee any such thing.

 

Well, it's a typical Russian war. Remember what they did in Syria.
But they were fighting against the Islamic State, so that we didn't care too much.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/02/russia-committed-war-crimes-in-syria-finds-un-report

 

That isn't guaranteed at all but it is good to see nuke hysteria replacing covid hysteria. It takes me back to the 50's.

 

He is trying to re-establish TSARIST Russia, not the Soviet Bloc. Tsarist Russia is a viable nation, though saved from being too big only by the fact that much of it is arctic waste. The Communist Bloc was an abortive attempt at a World Government based on a failed ideology

Ukraine was one of the "Russias" (the others are White Russia (Belarus) and the Duchy of Moscow) since 1654. It's never been particularly happy about this.

 

I must point out how markedly different a view you are now taking, from the one you expressed as recently as days ago:

But apparently you believe there is good basis for it. It appears to me, however, that you may be indulging in a little bit of wishful judgement. See the bolded line, in your quote, at top, about relying on Russia to be operating "in good faith" as far as "demilitarizing," the Eastern Republics, while Ukraine similarly demilitarized, in the East. Do you really not see the potential for a sucker punch, there?

As far as seeing this as a lesson that will keep Putin cowed about military adventurism in Ukraine; I think it will remain a burr, under Vlad's saddle. The Russians were obviously ill-prepared. Does it really not seem a possibility to you, that Putin would just regroup, retrain, replan, and come back with a more credible attack, in the future?

They'll learn from their mistakes, & be better prepared, next time.

As @Same Issues has said, the details here, make all the difference. But I have a feeling that what Putin has in mind as "neutrality," resembles Switzerland, not Israel. I think that anything that allows military partnerships, for Ukraine, is not going to satisfy the Russian demands.

I see a contradiction in the ideas, above, that Ukraine "gets to keep its military" -- how generous of Putin!-- but needs to "demilitarize," in its East. Beware the double-cross.

I don't know that this was your intention, but I object to your words' implication, that my arguments are just armchair entertainment, for myself, without an appreciation that we are discussing events in which lives are being lost, & torn apart.


As to your argument, what makes it seem unconvincing, to me, is that you are accepting that Putin is willing, out of all this effort, to be content with only an acknowledgement of Russia's already de facto possession of Crimea, the allowing of two Russian areas to become Independent, and a Ukranian declaration of neutrality, without planning to come back later to exploit those concessions. IMO, this seems naive.

 

Zelensky rejected the deal, so, I guess they are confident enough to keep going.

 

I disagree with this. There are few Russian troops, in the Western part of Ukraine. I find it hard to believe that these jets could not be brought in by rail, or other means. The rail lines would only need be guarded, by a combination of drones, and Ukranian troops. Hell, there are thousands of international volunteers, coming across the Western border, to fight for Ukraine. And there is no way to deliver a shipment of jets, overland?

This might be done by cover of night, I would think. Ukraine still does have its own planes. They could also coordinate with the shipment, to defend it.

But I can see the flying in of the jets, as possibly problematic. Even if they are being flown by Ukranian pilots, how is Russia supposed to know the nationality of the pilot? From their perspective (even though it is, of course, still Ukranian airspace), they could allege NATO jets being flown into their war zone.

(see above)

Poland is a little skittish of antagonizing Russia.

I think there was a bit of P.R. involved there; no one wants to be seen as the one nation, killing the deal.

Here is one point that we all seem to agree on: that Ukraine should get these Mig fighters, if logistics can be worked out. I'm disappointed to think that, now, NATO actually is afraid of Ukraine beginning to win the fight, for fear that this might lead Putin to use nukes, on Ukraine!

This is just my own, developing, sense of things. But obviously, with sufficient fighter protection for a bomber mission over that 40 mile Russian caravan, crawling it's way towards Kiev, Ukraine could land a conflict-altering blow, against Russia. Surely, NATO & the U.S. military experts can see this. That we are not expediting the delivery of the necessary equipment to make it possible, to my mind, can only be due to fear of the consequences, from Putin, which one always hears being stressed, in news briefings.

Yet I don't think the primary fear is of a nuclear response against NATO or the U.S., but against Ukraine, itself, which does seem to me, as well, as the most likely target for Putin, should he encounter such a devastating setback.

So I think that our hearts are, at least, in the right place. But I feel we are being overly- cautious, to the loss of great opportunity, for Ukraine. I don't believe it likely that Putin would use nukes, as a response. I would not go so far, however, as to say that it was not a possiblity.

If I were the President, at least with what I know now, I would be a strong advocate for this, behind closed doors-- but there's no reason to give Russia the heads- up, with public comments. Of course, I will acknowledge that it is easier for anyone to make that bold call, knowing that he is not really putting any lives at risk.

 

2003 Time magazine. Person of the Year - American soldiers who, on a far-fetched pretext, destroyed Iraq.

 

Then.....do it in secret maybe.....

 

That's what I would do-- did you read my full post?

 

It turns out that the Poles didn't make it public, - it was some diplomat in Europe and it ruined the whole deal. The deal was to send the Polish MIGs to Ukraine and replace Polish air force with US made planes.

 

.

Anything to suggest the diplomat's motivation: was he trying to ruin the deal, or trying to trumpet it as a victory, and just being a dumbass?

 

Except it's you who's the Hitler here. The US and NATO are the ones gobbling up countries in an aggressive expansion to restore the Holy Roman Empire, not Russia.