Universal Basic Income and Immigration

Guaranteed Universal Income has been a wet dream of the Liberal Left.
(I normally do not use such crude language, but in this case I believe the allusion is entirely appropriate)

But a question: How exactly would UBI work with open borders and mass immigration?
How could it work?

The more people there are, the harder it's going to be able to hand out free money to each of them, obviously. Especially when those people being added are poor (typically taking the less desirable jobs the people already in the country are more reluctant to do).
It might be one thing to create entitlements for all the citizens already living in the country, but when a country has an open-borders immigration policy, and will let in just anyone from any other part of the world, the country can't be offering free stuff.

By having open borders and taking in so much immigration, the Left is pretty much near guaranteeing that UBI is never going to be able to practically work.

Free Market economist Milton Friedman said as much in a speech in 1977.

"I have always been amused by kind of a paradox."​

Friedman then contrasted immigration to the U.S. before 1914 to the hypothetical of what if the country had those same policies today.

"The United States, as you know, before 1914 had completely free immigration. Anybody could get on a boat and come to these shores."
"But then, suppose I say to the same people: 'But now, what about today? Do you think we should have free immigration?
'Oh no,' they'll say. 'We couldn't possibly have free immigration today. Boy that would, uhh, that would flood us with immigrants from India and God knows where. We'd be driven down to a bare subsistence level.'"

"Why is it that free immigration was a good thing before 1914 and free immigration is a bad thing today?
Well, there is a sense in which that answer is right. There is a sense in which free immigration, in the same sense in which we had it before 1914, is not possible today.
Why not? Because it is one thing to have free immigration to jobs. It is another thing to have free immigration to welfare. And you cannot have both.

If you have a welfare state, if you have a state in which every resident is promised certain minimum level of income, or a minimum level of subsistence - regardless of whether he works or not, produces it or not - well then it really is an impossible thing.
If you have free immigration in the way in which we had it before 1914, everybody benefited."​

 

Open borders and the welfare state are direct contradictions, but I think we're going to put it to the test.

 

UBI is being taught in business classes today. The current idea is that AI will take over the work, and the rest of us will get UBI and will be free to do whatever we want.

Immigration is at odds with this. Not because of welfare but because they won't find jobs here. Then where will they get the money to buy the latest iPhone and air buds? How can they send money back home? Immigrants won't like that.

 

Do what you want... just keep your hand out of MY pocket. I WORRK for my money. It's not yours.

 

UBI only "works" for people with no grasp of basic math whatsoever or the concept of money.

But it is a dream of liberalism but it is based on greed and laziness and entitlement and a disconnection from reality

 

Yeah I agree but it could work under certain strick conditions as a voucher system .

1) It's only given to citizens or families who work (40hrs min)
2) vaucher for health insurance, and education for each child

 

We already have Medicaid and public schools.

 

That's not a world I would wish to live in and the people who are fans of it believe that everyone should get it simply by virtue of existing

 

Both are failures and public school is a socialist system.
Medicade only benifits the super poor and those who cheat the system.

Ubi benefits the people who contribute as well. It encourages people to work while welfare pays people to not work. If you are required to work full time to receive the vouchers, it would help the economy, businesses, and overall productivity.

 

People should get it by virtue of working and contributing to society. The system we have now rewards those who don't work and don't contribute.

 

Lots of successful people have gone to public schools. They aren't failures at all.
Medicaid is a safety net for those who are "challenged".

 

My plan is pretty radical......

1. I want to build the nation of Israel the Ezekiel chapter forty to forty eight temple complex......
I am hoping that President Donald J. Trump will compete with me and actually be the one who will get this done......

because he has a great deal more practical experience in real estate development than I do......

plus..... The Jerusalem Sanhedrin do not lightly write to President Trump what they wrote to him back in 2016!

Hey... I just noticed an e-mail that I sent in his direction on January 9, 2023:


http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-donald-j-trump.603660/page-2#post-1073960803

The Christian Political Cyrus / The Audition and President Donald J. Trump.
.....


https://www.israel365news.com/31162...sks-putin-trump-build-third-temple-jerusalem/

BIN EXCLUSIVE: Sanhedrin Asks Putin and Trump to Build Third Temple in Jerusalem



Did you know that there is an ancient ISLAMIC PREDICTION that in a way is the perfect antidote to the Al Gore Carbon Tax Theory as well as to the Bill Gates "Innovation to zero" theory?

So in a way.. .I am offering to COMPETE with President Donald J. Trump for the office of "Moshiach ben Ephrayim - Messiah son of Yosef - Josef" but..... there is another interesting role written up in ancient Jewish apocalyptic literature... it is "The Prince of the Tribe of Dan!"

A serious audition for the office of the Prince of the Tribe of Dan may well be the easiest way to get all of this actually accomplished because.....
Moshiach also deals with:


http://bankingsystemflaws.blogspot.com

MONEY IS LIKE BLOOD IN THE ECONOMY....
and a good and ethical economist should try to be like an ethical doctor in terms of explaining to people how the LIFE of the economy can be saved... and then how the economy can be healed.... because actually this is pretty simple!

Make money abundant in order to get the world going to a high level of productivity and.....
unite the world around the ethical goal of turning deserts green.....

so that the flooding of New Orleans... and the Maldive Islands.. .and Bangladesh... and the Isthmus of Chignecto between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and the State of Maine can be delayed as long as possible........
because rising ocean levels are the number one threat of what is going on with the climate... but Mr. Al Gore and Mr. Bill Gates probably don't want ordinary people to understand that fact.....
so.....
they do NOT advertise certain statistics!

 

I believe that the economic problems facing the USA can be addressed.....
and proven to be solvable from Mississauga and all of the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area.

There is a saying that local government.... municipal governments and city governments are where the rubber meets the road......

and that is true......

I believe that some astonishingly intelligent but unethical people know how to take over in Ottawa and in Washington, D. C. and turn those cities into a metaphorical SWAMP full of cold blooded
creatures who are obsessed with their own retirement portfolio..... so.......
... here in Canada something different could begin in the Greater Toronto Area......

..... I believe that we need to look at the Worgl Austria Local Money Experiment that was taken to over a thousand communities by Irving Fisher Ph. D. because... it can be argued that what Irving Fisher taught put pressure on F. D. R. to initiate The New Deal.

I believe that a vastly better NEW DEAL is possible for the USA and Canada that can soon be copied in most democratic nations.......
.....


http://www.whatcomwatch.org/php/WW_open.php?id=717

I personally believe that creating local currencies.....
that are linked to a database.......
[preferably SAP if possible because it is one of the best... but also one of the most expensive].....
and then using these local currency notes as PROPS OF SORTS in reality film projects.....
starring the residents of each area......
can set in motion a whole new economic revolution of sorts that in combination with AI and robotics
can cause an off the scale economic boom over the coming ten to twenty years.......
.....
this will scare a lot of people.......
... but near death experiencers have been shown that finally we humans are going to get something right!!!!!

What Mellen Thomas Benedict was shown.... is MACRO-ECONOMICS AT its finest... in my opinion!

https://near-death.com/mellen-thomas-benedict/

 

It'll be interesting how humanity deals with not enough employment/things to do for the populace.

 

Yes......
one idea that has been floated around is that ART in some form or another......

is one of the only possible avenues to give humanity full employment!

The word ART of course is subject to definition............
and both you and I tend to look at that possibility very differently.........

I personally would concede that the reality film HOARDERS is indeed ART in many ways.......

I concede that Mr. Jackson Galaxy is doing a good job of helping people to produce some extremely VALUABLE film footage with their cats!?


I concede that the Scott Brothers are doing a good job of assisting many people to turn their real estate... into STAGES of sorts!!!!


I am of the belief that Americans and Canadians will soon make a major shift toward life in more rural settings......
and I believe that the final forms of the U.B.I. in Canada and America, will play a significant role in that trend!?


Could a real estate boom plus better Fed policy pay off USA national debt?

 

In America we've decided the solution is more immigration.

 

The people who have floated to the top of the political system in the USA and Canada want Cultural Civil War and more immigration fits with their goals.

I just began a new poll.....
that I think has a lot of potential to increase understanding of the bigger picture here.

?
Could an Unconditional but Taxable Basic Minimum Income transfer money from the wicked to righteous
Edit

1. 
   No
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
2. 
   Yes
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
3. *
   I think that this would depend on the specifics of exactly how the B.M.I. is financed????
   1 vote(s)
   100.0%
4. 
   No.. this would be inflationary!
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%

Change Your Vote

 

I disagree with you. It's going to be a long time until robots replace low level lower-paying service jobs.

While it's true that AI is already replacing many good-paying office jobs, currently there is no AI that exists which can cook food or clean rooms like a human being can, dealing with clutter or common unanticipated situations.
I am not sure how many years or decades that technology is away, or even if it will ever happen in the next 100 years, but it does not exist right now.

I suspect even when robots do start becoming, there will need to be humans standing nearby to oversee them to, to take care of unexpected situations, reduce risk and prevent anything from going wrong.

The thing about computer programs is that they can only solve problems when the inputs are already carefully pre-organized in a predictable way. Or when what the computer is required to identify is simple, such as where in an image a certain kind of label is and what the numbers on that label read.

Even driving on roads has proved to be a complicated thing. A computer can drive acceptably nearly all of the time, but what about those very rare more complicated situations that the computer was not programmed for, which the programmers never anticipated? Is a computer driver really fully as safe as a human driver?

 

Since the robot army is not ready, that's to do American dirty work. Because most Americans (which are mostly white) are too entitled and lazy to consider such employment.

Ever observed who your cleaners/factory workers are?

 

This answer of yours demonstrates a very official pro immigration line that is common to the establishments in all Western countries, so it's not surprising that you would repeat it back as if it's your own thoughts, even to throwing in the racial angle.

But this isn't the place to have an immigration discussion; there are plenty of threads for that. I merely mention it to show the the United States is currently totally unable to make serious, long term policy to deal with this issue. It only knows how to make things worse.

 

Only "demo crats" are entitled. That's why they feel they can take away our 2d amendment rights, tell us what to cook on in our kitchen, take away our 2d amendment rights, tell us what to drive, raise our taxes, etc. I work in defense. Most of the workers are Repubs. Dems feint dead away at the sight of a weapon.

 

So confident and yet you couldn't answer a simple question? It is no wonder that Americans can't solve this issue because they can't even accept basic realities. That the Right has been quietly cahoots with the immigration as well.

I say quietly, because GOP want to manipulate the issue to trigger their base to energize voting.

PS. the thread has the word 'immigration' in it.

 

The only question you asked was "Ever observed who your cleaners/factory workers are?"

I thought I had covered this by noting that you were spewing a talking point without putting much thought behind it, otherwise you might have noted the irony of an Australian trying to tell an American who the "cleaners/factory workers are" in America.

I admit I got a chuckle out of that.

As I did out of your attempt to make an American partisan point about it. Yes of course, the GOP; the official political party, wants lots of immigration because they want to keep wage rates low, exactly like the Democrats. It's a bipartisan consensus.

I simply disagree that it's good public policy. I assume you, being a good and faithful deliverer of establishment talking points, also support keeping wage rates low for those "cleaner/factory workers?"

 

I am not pro 'swaths of immigration' and agree that it is poor policy. I was merely pointing out the construct that led to the issue. I did assume, you being a Conservative, that you were not able to parcel out the historic (non)contributions of Republicans to the issue. Conservatives seem to find it difficult to attribute Republican policy to the issue, but find it very easy to point that all their fingers, toes, arms and legs at the Democrats. But I see I made an incorrect assumption, as you are indeed aware.

 

I concede that I don't fully understand your post, but it does seem like a heady brew. Thanks.