US Homeland Security buys 750 million hollow point bullets

You're living in lala land. No there isn't any unified movement, but I don't know anyone who feels like they are represented by government. If there was ever a breeding ground for such a movement, current America is it. Our pseudo economy teeters on collapse. Only globalists get the support of money men and media who get people elected. All that is left is for a nutjob to write a book and start a workers/nationalist party for people to get behind. So far only white supremacists have tried, but if a multicultural nutjob popped up that everyone trusted, the people would hand this country over to a dictator in a heartbeat. If for no other reason than to have elite hung.

The ruling class is out of control. The term democracy, or representative republic, a joke. The people's choices are A) industrialists who want all to be slaves to the owner class, or B) statists who want all workers to be slaves to the government, which is coincidentally controlled by the owner class anyway. Both are elected to American government, and both share the viewpoint that America is simply just another state in a world that is 1 now. The world was bad enough when the intellectual elite were against the industrialists, now with both in bed together, working towards common gains, the common man has no voice, or even worse, no options. Workers don't want handouts, workers want to see their labor garner a better life. To one day own that house on the hill. The majority are losing such hope. And those in control know it.

 

That way when they shoot innocent Americans the chance of them surviving (even if they did not necessarily hit a vital organ) is far less than being shot with an ordinarily bullet.

 

It won't do any good if the shoot the wrong person.

 

Propaganda = "Information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause."

Yeah. The NY Times does that. Every newspaper does that. Propaganda is everywhere. My post is propaganda, and if you reply to this post, your post will be propaganda too.

 

Well if this were true then that revolution should have happened already. This country just had two large political movements sprout up and then quickly fizzle away into obscurity. I'm talking about the Tea Party and the OWS movements. Both of which had very similar goals and arguments against wasteful government spending and our current economic mess we are facing. Both of those movements haven't brought much change at all to our country. If anything, the Tea Party, a mostly conservative movement, has accomplished the most by getting several congressmen elected into office. But otherwise I'd say things haven't changed much in our country's leadership or changed the economic situation much in the last few years.

 

Well if this were true then that revolution should have happened already. This country just had two large political movements sprout up and then quickly fizzle away into obscurity. I'm talking about the Tea Party and the OWS movements. Both of which had very similar goals and arguments against wasteful government spending and our current economic mess we are facing. Both of those movements haven't brought much change at all to our country. If anything, the Tea Party, a mostly conservative movement, has accomplished the most by getting several congressmen elected into office. But otherwise I'd say things haven't changed much in our country's leadership or changed the economic situation much in the last few years.

 

AJ98, I think the discussion is based on Federal instigating the problem, not so much the public, which your analogies suggest.

"Contingency Programs", are a dime a dozen within Government, planning for potential or perceived future problems. As mentioned I personally feel the purchase was made for political reasons of some kind, but in any event an explanation to the public is in order and being refused. http://info.themicroeffect.com/2012/...-ammo-buildup/

What should worry you are the unknown number of "Booths seemed destined to be used for checkpoints throughout the country". While the cost of the shells is probably less than a billion dollars delivered, those booths are special built and are going to be very costly. What reason would "HOMELAND SECURITY" have for even one of these units, when their stated purpose is to protect the general public FROM terrorist, not protecting the agents.

 

People want to be able to changed the rigged nature of the system without violence. The 60s made them think it was possible, however, it isn't. Cops killed people protesting back then, they are smarter now. Nonlethal technology has led to protests being irrelevant. It is simply a matter of time now. Our entire system is propped up with debt, debt being financed by a dollar the FED seems to think will forever have value. You take away BS SS claims, welfare(and the plethora of like programs), easy school loans that 80% collecting have no business qualifying for, subsidies, grants for businesses, the massive state agencies keeping people employed without any real need for them, we have over 50% unemployment overnight. And this is not even throwing hyperinflation into the formula.

Whether you are talking the average citizen, or the elite, we are in uncharted waters. No historical data has any relevance to what is going on today, whether you are talking economics or warfare. Globalism changes any relevancy of historical economic data. The wealth of Americans as a whole, cancels out any historical warfare data. There has never been a nation who went to war with their government where every household has the chemicals to make bombs. The mere fact we still have rigged elections and two pseudo parties, that anyone with 2 eyes can tell are the same, is proof in its own right the elite know Americans could kick the crap out of them if given the want.

 

So what cause is the NY Times purposely promoting by quoting anonymous government officials and declarig the source as such? What cause is a newspaper purposely promoting when it reports a volcanic eruption?

 

You're theory will only come true if the value of the dollar evaporates and the rest of the world can't trust the US government to keep their gold and other valuables over at Fort Knox. As long as we maintain our economic superiority and don't let the debt catch up on us, the government will continue to pay out the welfare programs and the subsidies. Until then, the American public have no reason to rebel against the government.

 

"Manufacturing Consent" - The political economy of the mass media. Noam Chomsky

You can probably find the book online but there was also a movie made by the same title and there are numerous videos on the subjects covered.

 

Economic superiority has been on the decline for years. The debt problem is looming large.

I agree that we are not there yet but it may not be that long.

The Debt is 15 Trillion and will be 23 Trillion in 5 years at the current spending pace. Ave interest (3%) today = 450 Billion a year on income of 2.1 Trillion.
5 years from now that interest rate could easily double to 6% and stagflation could keep our income flat.

6% on 23 Trillion would be 1.4 Trillion in annual interest paymets. If our income is still 2.1 Trillion this does not leave much left to spend.

You can play out a number of senario's but the bottom line is that our interest payments are increasing faster than our income is increasing.

30-33% is generally given as the number where the ship is in serious danger of sinking. (interest/income)

Currently we are only at 450 billion/2100 billion = 21%

In the senario given .. we could be facing 1.4 Trillion/2.1 Trillion = 66% in 5 years.

I do not think there is a country in history that ever made it to 66% .. around 40% the wheels start to come off.

 

Should also note that if real economic collapse happens anytime soon, we might likely see it in Europe first before it would ever happen to us. Greece of course likely being that first domino waiting to fall down.

 

Ah but "the system is not all powerful" whereas a true propaganda outfit obviously is.

 

"There has never been a nation who went to war with their government where every household has the chemicals to make bombs. The mere fact we still have rigged elections and two pseudo parties, that anyone with 2 eyes can tell are the same, is proof in its own right the elite know Americans could kick the crap out of them if given the want." Til the Last Drop

You seem to be a very articulate and intelligent poster, however, this is where I believe that you are smoking dope with some posts. My opinion is that the USA public is completely controlled and INCAPABLE of revolt. Media brainwashing is so powerful that most can not even fathom thoughts like yours. For those that are left, anyone who has watched Mythbusters knows that the ONLY chemicals capable of significant explosions are nitrated (i.e. require the acquisition of nitric acid). This chemical and every known explosive is heavily regulated. I posted another thread about some bomb threats at the University of Pittsburgh. A bomb hasn't gone off in the USA in 10 years and I don't think there ever will be another one. The only reason Afghanistan and Iraq were trouble for so long was the availability of explosives coming in from Iran. My take - we are all screwed and there is nothing you can do about it. Enjoy your time while the elites still consider themselves USA residents.

 

Dude, thats standard issue to every agent/officer in Federal Law Enforcement. If you use jacketed full ball ammo, its like trying to kill somebody with an ice pick unless you get a lucky shot ( you can do it... but not before you get messed up)... or your a unreal precision shooter. Hollow points wont travel very far through walls and doors compared to a full metal jacket round... so less collateral damage.

 

That is a contradiction to NATO rules. The assumption is that a "trained professional" can actually hit their target. Hollow point bullets are alleged to cause undue suffering because even if a target is hit it will fragment and cause a slow and painful death.

 

Bean counters and idiots made those rules. If you get shot by a soft tip ballistic 5.56 round (m-16 round) opposed to a fulljacket ball ammo standard issue round... you’re going to have a HUGE wound channel with the soft tip as it spreads from the hydrostatic shock and resistance of the body. One of the main reasons you wouldn’t want to use hollow point bullets in the military is because your targets could be wearing some kind of body armor and hollow points are really ineffective against it as opposed to armor piecing full metal jacketed varieties. The Geneva convention tries to pretty up the disgusting orgasm of violence that war is... and fails miserably

No matter how "trained" you are as a professional... you will not be able to place precision heart and head shots during a dynamic physical confrontation. Accuracy goes out the window (unless you’re a sniper in a hide...but that is hardly a dynamic situation). It is why the military and law enforcement agencies all train their personnel to target center mass of the torso to increase the odds of even hitting the intended target.

The military would never use soft tip hollow point for war... too situational...full metal jacket may not be as effective on soft targets as hollow point... but it is a hell of allot cheaper and it is allot more versatile in the fact that you can still kill soft targets ..But also pierce body armor allot more effectively at range.

The Geneva Convention does not extend to domestic law enforcement anyway.

 

Pretty good answer, Signcutter. As long as USA residents aren't being targeted for suffering.

 

No worries there. The ammo being used is chosen specifically for its inherent ballistics when impacting human flesh.... "knockdown power". If you think you become the target of civilian armed organizations.... buy some good bodyarmor... you will very likely still die... but you wont be the fist to go out in a chunky pink mist... in fact once the rounds do penetrate the body armor.. it (the bodyarmor) will hold all your juicy bits together making you a much more presentable corpse for the media.

 

Knockdown power is a misnomer. A round will be no more powerful than the energy expended shooting it, so if a shooter is not knocked down then the target won't be either.

Hollow points help decrease collateral damage (those behind the target) because they tend to expand and stay within the person shot. As it is, only about 20% of people shot actually die. Almost everything in the body except a few organs are very flexible and can withstand the hydrostatic shock of a round passing through them. Organs like the liver break apart instead of expanding and contracting.

The only way a hollow point is effective is if it hits a vital organ, like one of the inflexible organs or an artery.

A full metal jacket will also be as deadly if they hit the same, but can also penetrate completely through the target, leaving two holes to bleed from. Most people die of bleeding out if not hit in an artery or inflexible organ.

The Russian's have a round called the 7.62x25 or Tokarev. It comes in full metal jacket and will penetrate some bullet proof vests. You can pick up leftover ammo really cheap. It was designed to penetrate the Russian winter wear which was usually made of thick felt which was much cheaper and easier to produce.

When Russian police would shoot someone during a crime, the person could usually get away because the bullet would pass right through them, but they would eventually need medical treatment so anyone showing up at the hospital with a bullet wound was reported immediately and the police would eventually come by and collect them.

 

The NY Times is going OUT of business. The Pentagon Papers was 40 or more years ago. The good gray times is long gone to liberal propaganda. Anyone not aware of that has their head firmly buried in the sands of denial.

 

I would not go that far. Nor should it be claimed that everything in the New York Times is propaganda.

It is true however that the paper has been guilty of propaganda (as opposed to "reporting the news") on many issues.

For example, the NYTimes reporting on any war or conflict that the US is involved in should not be taken seriously .. or at least with a hefty spoonful of salt.

 

Sorry man your wrong... so wrong. As a combat vet and a veteran LEO and firearms instructor I can most assuredly tell you that a hollow point transfers a considerably greater portion of its energy into a body it impacts creating a MUCH larger wound channel, A hollow point causes a much larger wound channel greatly increasing the odds that you hit the heart, destroy the lungs or blow up the liver or make mush out of the intestines




As you can see the FMJ bullets penetrate almost all the way through an average body before creating a large wound channel, subsequently expending alot its energy outside of the body it penetrates.

I dont understand how you can say that "knockdown power" is a misnomer. A bullet being fired from a gun is leaving a stationary position from a controlled discharge allowing the person discharging the round to be isolated from the blast and energy discharge used to propel the round... otherwise... if what you said was logical... firing anyround from any gun would be a deadly proposition. Your not even taking into account energy asorbing assemblies like buffer springs , slide springs, muzzle brakes, slide actions, butt pads...etc.

Ask any hunter why they use FMJ bullets..to save meat because of the much smaller wound channel. The hunters that like to use ballistic tip like them because the deer they hit drop in their tracks.

 

Do you think it is right that hollow points are against the Geneva convention yet law enforcement/government finds it acceptable when dealing with American citizens?