<<< MODERATOR EDIT: OFF TOPIC >>> As a half German and one whose Mother got out in '37 to avoid scum like Himmler and Goering -- both of whom she had briefly met -- i can assure you that apart from strange views over swimming pool loungers , Germans are a very hospitable and tolerant people .
Many Germans were horrified about going back to war after the disaster of WWI. Many Germans did not believe as Hitler did that Jews were the problem. Germans were also very well trained in following orders. Once Hitler was in power, there was little any German citizen could do to stop anything happening and many Germans saw what was happening to Jews, but like many people, did not care since it was not themselves. Nazi's, the political party members of Hitler's regime, do deserve to take the brunt of scorn. The German people have already taken the shame for complacency and for new generations, it is time to remember but move on and learn from history. Those glorifying Nazi's should be scorned and shamed by both Germans and the rest of the world.
Given that German medias did not forget to bring news about the oppression of Germans in Polish territory, the conflict applied as inevitable. To be honest, there was little any German who wanted to stop anything. Jews were seen as enemies of Germany and greedy speculators and extortioners, but the people were far from killing them. Everybody knows, the the official story was, that Jews are deported to Madagascar. It is time to remember history facts. The NSDAP was not just a party. In 1932, it was a movement with 12 million active members. The people were sick of the weak politics of the Weimarer Republik. The problem we have here, is that the term Nazi is used inflationary. What in the rest of the world is a normal implicitness, is banned in Germany.
Nothing is inevitable. It takes a decision to go to war and Hitler made that decision. After being decimated and losing family members, you seem to think that Germans were eager to go back to war. Not true. They liked what Hitler did for Germany before the war but his psychosis took them back to war and ruin.
Sophie and Hans Scholl were Germans. I praised them. Great Germans, in contrast to the turds that prance about throwing Nazi salutes. You make it up if you want, but it's pretty clear who is twisting the truth when you post oh such reasonable demands from a Germany that had already agreed to carve up Poland. You put whom in their place? Let me ask you then: who speaks German in the great Hanseatic Free City of "Danzig" now, or the fine Silesian city of "Breslau"? I think I heard Polish last time I was in these cities. These cities were particularly Nazi cities weren't they? They got their comeuppance. They fled for their lives. Voting for Nazis as these two cities did in 1933 has its consequences. Sophie Scholl didn't run away. Some miserable quisling janitor, another social inadequate most likely, ratted on Sophie and Hans to the police. Then big brave Nazis cut her head off. These are the scum you eulogize. When truth is told, Nazis killed women and children. Freedom loving people killed Nazis. <<< MODERATOR EDIT: OFF TOPIC REMOVED >>>
Raymondo. Nazis are not worth debating. Laugh at them or just show the evil of their ideology. They always give up and go away. There is no real debate here. If you play chess it's like playing against someone who only knows how to play fools mate and they just keep trying it over and over again. IN the end they give up. It's not difficult to expose a Nazi's true colors. You just have to try... and that arm then keeps twitching upwards, the goose-steps start and the "sieg heils" just keep on coming...<<< MODERATOR EDIT: OFF TOPIC >>>
I do agree but I am silly enough to find such misguided ignorance fascinating . Rather like being cuddly Uncle Adolf 's neighbour and discussing roses after a good days figures from the Gas Ovens . Surreal .
Hitler, he only had one ball Goering, had two but very small, Himmler, had something similar But poor old Goebbels had no balls at all....
The problem is that it isn't funny: Ihr aber lernet, wie man sieht statt stiert Und handelt, statt zu reden noch und noch. So was hätt einmal fast die Welt regiert! Die Völker wurden seiner Herr, jedoch Daß keiner uns zu früh da triumphiert - Der Schoß ist fruchtbar noch, aus dem das kroch. Therefore learn how to see and not to gape To act instead of talking all day long The world was almost won by such an ape The nations put him where his kind belong But don't rejoice too soon at your escape The womb he crawled from still is going strong. Berthold Brecht No pasaran.
No, the consent to Hitler has grown to a greater degree, when the people had to realize, how the enemy was fighting. And Poland and France caused only a minimum of casualties. Your celebrating that there is no German language in German cities, makes sure, you make no differences between Nazi and German. And where do I eulogize scum? As for the Scholls, you also have no clue. Free studies and alimentation in a world of falling bombs, this was the countrie´s benefit. They weren´t grateful, though they had dozens of chances to call off their ideas. It was their choice to die. They really had better choices to give their lifes some sense, but they were really brave. Today, characters like them would be excluded from the society for being "nazis". <<< MODERATOR EDIT: REMOVED OFF TOPIC QUOTES AND REPLIES >>>
Not so. It is merely my response to your juvenile threat. Germans in cities that were Nazi strongholds ran away... It is a great tragedy that the civilization of Beethoven, Schiller and Goethe, not to mention Thomas Mann, Heinrich Heine and Albert Einstein (all banned by the Nazis), was reduced to fleeing refugees as a result of the nation's indoctrination by Nazis. I have met a woman who fled the Red Army from Danzig to go to North Rhein Westphalia. Her husband didn't return from Siberia until the 1950's. Their son is my very good friend. He, and other Germans talk about the shame they have for their parents generation. "How did they not know?" he says. They knew and yet have a conspiracy of silence towards their children. A whole generation of liars when the Scholls knew. The German Nazis have made Germans ashamed of their own nationality. I tell him (and others) that it was not his fault. He wasn't even born. He states that I cannot understand because it is not my country with such evil on its conscience. I hate the Nazis, not least for what they have done to my German friends. Nazis are evil and their sympathizers too. they have made Germans ashamed. You can try and rob the Scholls of their heroism all you like by portraying them as fanatics who "could have saved themselves". This is the lie. The statement that today they would be seen as Nazis completes the doublethink. It's empty, meaningless abuse. It doesn't even have the courage to challenge the Scholls. It just trashes them with disrespect by trashing what they stood for and trying to claim their sacrifice in a perverted twist for Nazism. This demonstrates nicely the sick dementia of the extreme Right today. What sort of civilized nation kills children for dropping leaflets? This was exactly the barbaric nation that the Nazis created. And the Scholls knew. The leaflets of the White Rose talked bout the mass murder of Jews from the activities of the Einsatzgruppen. This was when the Allies were denying the Holocaust as propaganda. Nazis were gassing little Rroma children to death. You can mock all you like but some of us can recognized the deepest evil in our midst. Our hatred is deep, visceral and unrelenting. Wherever Nazis pop up their misshapen heads and bray their grunting voices there will be people to remind them that never again will they be given power, anywhere on Earth. There is nothing German about Nazis. There was Brassilach in France who said "il faut se separer des juifs, et ne pas garder les petits". " Separate ourselves from the Jews and don't spare the little ones". Nazis and their quislings are the lowest scum you can find. Remember the White Rose. No pasaran. Good, splendid young people! You shall not have died in vain; you shall not be forgotten. The Nazis have raised monuments to indecent rowdies and common killers in Germany—but the German revolution, the real revolution, will tear them down and in their place will memorialize these people, who, at the time when Germany and Europe were still enveloped in the dark of night, knew and publicly declared: ‘A new faith in freedom and honor is dawning.’ ” —THOMAS MANN, NOBEL LAUREATE, Broadcasting to Germans from U.S. Exile, June 27, 1943 “ ‘Young German Martyrs.’ If [the White Rose manifesto] is genuine, and there is no reason to doubt that it is, we can see in it the beginning of the end of the nightmare period in Germany itself. . . . These young Munich students—few or many—representative or otherwise—rose gloriously. . . protesting in the name of principles which Hitler thought he had killed forever. In years to come we, too, may honor Hans Scholl, Sophie Scholl, Christophe Probst, Alexander Schmorell, Kurt Huber and William Graf, slain in Munich for a cause that is also ours” —THE NEW YORK TIMES, Editorial Eulogizing White Rose, August 2, 1943 “I will never forget the excitement when a leaflet was pressed into my hand by somebody in the editorial room of the Allgemeine Zeitung. The leaflets were being circulated by White Rose followers in Hamburg. Something electrifying, heartening—yes, magical!—emanated from these typewritten and mimeographed lines. We copied them off and passed them on. A wave of enthusiasm swept over us—we who risked so (*)(*)(*)(*)ed little in comparison.” –URSULA VON KARDOFF, Legendary German journalist (1911-198 “ ‘Rip off the cloak of indifference. . . choose before it is too late.’ A half-century has passed since the White Rose called out these words before their arrest and death. . . . Each new generation, including our own, realizes that those words are really addressed to us. Again and again, we feel their deep echo. . . . Each person is responsible for what he does and for what he allows to happen. In the darkest moment of 20th century history, the White Rose demonstrated this truth.” –President Richard von Weizsäcker “When we heard about what was happening in Munich, we embraced each other and applauded. There were, after all, still human beings in Germany.” —FORMER CONCENTRATION CAMP INMATE
You try to make a Nazi out of me to let your opinion shine in the sun´s light of truth and moral. But you are just a fascist, who wants to eliminate different opinions. Your Berthold Brecht quote proves unmistakable, that you are only happy, if Germany would finally be gone some day. That´s all what you have in mind. Eliminate everything German.
Presume you mean , Judging . From the moment you get up , until the moment you hit the hay in the evening , everybody makes thousands of judgements .Unless you have suffered major lobotomy don't feel inferior about those who make more good ones than you. It is smart to make good judgements . Don't believe pseudo Christian nonsense of not being judgmental without first thinking about it !! Now I judge that Nazi and Neo Nazi scum pollute the planet . QED A fine judgement . If it makes you feel better about yourself , I am not judging . Simply passing you my good news .
I quote a great German literary figure, in German and you accuse me of wanting to see the end of Germany! Of course this is a classic Nazi view. Brecht was banned under the Nazis as were many, many great Germans whom you would no doubt also condemn. Those who bleat "liar" in defense of Nazism are quickly revealed as what they really are. To anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence it is clear that Brecht is not referring to der Schoss of Germany, but to that of decadent capitalism in crisis, to the morally compromised bourgeois society which he accuses of tolerating and enabling a buffoon like Hitler. By setting this action in Chicago he makes this very much an internationalist message. Brecht speaks to all the peoples of the world on this one. Only a swaggering nationalist, ignorant of this great German literary oevre, could misunderstand that. Brecht blamed all of us. For gaping and not acting. Be assured, that when the time comes to act, Nazi faces, German, French, Norweigian, Dutch, British..,. will be acquainted with pavements... lest the world is nearly won by another ape...
While children are abused in the world, 1 of 6 childs is exploited, the planet is going to hell by and large, "people of moral" are hunting people they consider as "Nazis". Fishy trash, that must disappear, before the real problems can be solved.
Stop your propaganda. I was talking about your interpretation! When neutral history is good to make a interested person a Nazi, we have a non democratic atmosphere, a dictated history.
Most of the Waffen-SS soldiers (yes, I know that there are exceptions) were voluntarily joining an organization, who fought much more ruthless than the regular German Wehrmacht. Not everyone of them was joining because of looking forward to some atrocities to committ, some, especially until 1939 just joined because of the perspective for a career as a civil servant, some under illusional imaginations of the war, but if you want to point out what is exemplaric, these were not ordinary soldiers, but indoctrinated political soldiers in average much more reckless and brutalized than the ordinary soldiers. Rommel, who you mentioned, was no member of the Waffen-SS!
Here you label a socialist regime of Milosevic as fascist, another time a guy like Wilders as a nazi. Is that just a label for you, which you can simply stick on everyone, whose politics you reject?
How do you come to that kind of nonsense? There were just a few states in the US that treated Blacks that bad as the NS regime. Life for the few Blacks was nevertheless pure horror in the Third Reich. There is an autobiography of Hans-Jürgen Massaquoi, which describes the childhood of a young dark skinned boy (fater was Black) in Germany. Are you trying to go for the silliest remark here? Many Arabs were positive about Hitlers anti-Semistism, as well as many Turks from the Soviet Union agreed with Hitlers anti-Communism and his anti-Semitism. There were people from many European countries and of different origin in the Waffen-SS, but what do you want to prove by that?
No, not really. I think there is a clear distinction between constitutiional nationalists and fascists. Conservatives in the UKIP for example are not fascists. Racists like Sarkozy, who expelled EU citizens from France for the crime of being Rroma are not fascist. There are plenty of reactonaries (like von Papen in the 1930's) who can enable fascism. Fascists are however not the same as racist conservatives or other conservatives. George Bush and Dick Cheney are certaibky not fascists. Fascists are however a wider bunch of criminals than merely those who stand behind the fasces, or who see themselves as successors to Roman authoritarianism. Fascists are generally nationalists, reject liberal democracy in its entirety (I believe this about the neo-Nazi parties led by LePen and Griffin for example who will crush liberals and take away our hgard won freedoms with criminal and unconstitutional acts if they are given half a chance) and will and do take away our freedoms. They are chiefly distinguished by hostility to the Enlightenment, by a heavy reliance on myth or religion, and by supremicist ideologies, racial or cultural. In this way Iranian Mullahs, genocidal Serbian maniacs, Syrian eye doctors, Iraqi thugs and child maiming Talibani are all fascists. I have a problem with Wilders as to whether he is a fascist or the more conventional type of conservative racist. I think Pim Fortuyn for example was not a fascist. The Netherlands is a strange place because social liberalism runs deep. On the other hand I do see the danger of fascism arising in the USA. The demonization of muslims now is akin to the demonization of Jews in the early twentieth century (in Europe and the USA, which was not innocent of anti-semitism). The social acceptability of the most ignorant prejudice towards muslims is underpinning a new fascism that is emerging in the United States which is also hostile to individual rights (woman's right to choose), and democracy. Obama's election was denounced as a tyranny of the majority and the words "Republic" and "democracy" (the latter misrepresented as something which did not automatically include individual rights, the rule of law and the separation of powers) were dishonestly manipulated to deny the legitimacy of a black liberal President. Coupled with the increasing rejection of capitalism and Wall Street by a campaign that is funded by obscure billionnaires, the Tea Party resembles an American version of National Socialism more and more as it harks to a society built on farms small workshops and shopkeepers, rejecting the reality of international capitalism. At the same time it shores up the power of the very rich people that it pretends to denounce through the very specially stupid gullibility of the bigoted morons that form its ranks. There you have it. "Fascism" has a very definite meaning. If I would sum it up simply I would do so as "counter-Enlightenment, nationalistic, anti-democratic violent, political movements". It is once again the biggest danger we face.
I admire the blatant dishonesty of your post . It reminds me of a scammer with natural talent who does not realise he is a thief . Many priorities can be tackled at the same time . It is totally dishonest to even think that cleaning the toilets --- flushing away the Nazi scum -- prevents you paying attention to other huge injustices simultaneously --- not enough food for children , as one of many examples .
So oyu want to kill Nazis. That´s your problem. But I will not let you decide whether I (or who ever) am a Nazi or not. Göring said: "I decide, who is a Jew." What makes you better than Göring, raymondo? What´s the difference between your claim and the Nazi´s claim?
1. You take your own definition of fascism. Principially I don't have a problem with that and it would propbaly correspond to that of most people to at least 90%. 2. It is rather strange, how you apply your definiton. I read a lot of comments from your side and up to now, you appear to me as an apologist of every inhuman, cruel, intolerant aspect of Islam. The comparison to anti-Semitism is a funny move, you can compare whatever you want, but you will change the slightest that the genesis of anti-islamism not only in the Western World but worldwide is not just based on faked protocols, myths and blantant lies, but for most parts on the real existing violence, real existing intolerance of "infidels" and especially in the Western World the misogynist aspects od Islam. It's a strange contradiction, you mention the deep roots of liberalisms in the Netherlands, nevertheless an extraordinary high percentage of the voters consists of scum and rats according to your commentary? Ever thought about the possibility that the Netherlands did not drift to fascism but liberals reacted in disgust, when Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who had to leave the country, because obviously no one can control muslim violence there) gave a shattering insight of what happened to women in her muslim world? Ever thought about that liberals could have reacted in disgust when the director of that movie had his head cut off in public for this movie? Ever thought that liberals could have reacted in disgust, when they have to look for muslims who raise their voices against such acts with a loupe? This is the clima in which people like Gerd Wilders, who was a member of the liberal party, turned against Islam. The countless terrorist acts are reality, blaming the victims of Muslim violence (like Hirsi Ali) and those whose solidarity is with the victims (Wilders or the brutaly murdererd van Gogh) to be fascists (more often the term racist) is the typical reaction of apologists. I read several comments like that, e.g. your admiration of the contemporary Turkey with an added conclusion that Turks in Germany are only victims of xenophobia and the problems are all made up by racists. Strange that everybody that is so fixed with the comparison of anti-Semitism of the past with anti-Islamism today ignores completely the Islamic anti-Semitism today. Just to add here, I do not doubt that anti-islamism can mix up with or even be just a mask for racist, xenophobic, fascist, chauvinist or nazi attitude, but I simply doubt that one third of the Netherlands became fascists overnight and as I see it, it became a rethoric move for islamists and their apologists to get the Islam immunized towards critics. 3. The tea party is a US American affair and we had this discussion already in the Norweigian thread, I think the US to be the last state in the world which could be turned into a facist state, it is IMO by far too heterogenious. I am not stating that no poltical extremism can emerge there that can influence the world, but it is IMO impossible to take out the democratic order.
