What if Germany and Japan were victorious in WWll ?

No, it would have been even worse.

The US was seperated by oceans, so it would not have fallen like most of Europe and Asia did. So the Cold War would have devolved into a 4 way struggle, between the US, Italy, Germany, and Japan. Italy would have spread throuout Africa and part of the Middle East, Germany through Western Asia, including the other half of the Middle East, and Japan in Eastern Asia and the Pacific Rim.

The US would have remained dominant in the Americas and Australia and the Eastern Pacific. A 4 way power struggle, which likely would have been fought through proxy wars, just as the Cold War was, but with the major powers taking an even more active role.

No "Vietnam, Korea". Instead conflicts would have been in places like China, India, the Middle East, and throughout Africa. With the Axis powers trying the same thing in Central America and parts of South America.

"Cold Wars" and "Proxy Wars" were not invented in the aftermath of WWII, they had existed for thousands of years prior to that.

 

War is the best of things. Each day most of the world's population pray for war, and so they should. For transition is enormous and what greater change than war?

 

Try being in one and then you might have a different opinion.

The problem is that we have made war seem like some surgical and sterile strike but if you ever walked over an area where B-52's had dropped Cluster Munitions and although the European's attempted to create a CLUSTER BOMB SUB-MUNITIONS BAN.....well...#1. The United States never signed the agreement and #2. We have already developed new Cluster Bomb Sub-Munitions that render themselves inert once they either strike a target or strike the ground and the Cluster Bomb Sub-Munitions that the U.S. Military has developed are much more lethal than any other Cluster Bomb Munition ever built.

It is true that our new Cluster Bomb Sub-Munitions will not detonate after they have either struct the ground or struck a target as these Cluster Bombs come in 500 lbs Bomb Casings, 1000 Lbs Bomb or Missile Cassings and 2000 Bomb or Missile Cassings.

Each Cluster Bomb Cased Munition which comes in size of the standard gravity dropped Dumb Iron Bomb 500, 1000 or 2000 lbs Casings and a single B-52 can carry 72 of the 500 Lbs Bomb Casings well each has HUNDREDS OF INDEPENDENTLY ROCKETED VEHICLES that are used for a variety of reasons such as Anti-Mechanised Forces Sub-Munitions, Anti-Tank Sub-Munitions and Anti-Personel Sub-Munitions as unlike during the Gulf War our New Cluster Bombs render themselves INERT if they do not explode within a certain period of time as well EACH AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF TEN'S OF THOUSAND'S OF SUBMUNITIONS DROPPED BY A SINGLE WING OF B-52H'S flying overhead at 50,000 Feet High.....thus approx. 216,000 Independently rocketed to target Anti-Tank, Anti-Machanized Forces and Anti-Personel SUB-MUNITIONS.....will easily wipe out multiple Iranian or any other Militaries Army's Mechanized Force Divisions IN A SINGLE PASS!!!

The Iraqi's told us that the thing they feared more than anything including the A-10's were what they called THE METAL RAIN....as these were less advanced DUMB Cluster Bombs usually shot into and over an Iraqi Republican Guard Division by Guided MLRS...up to 36 Multiple Launched Rocketets each containing hundreds of Dumb Cluster Bombs.

The new one's the U.S. Military uses are usually dropped from extreme altitutes and will self rocket direct each of themselves which come now in a mitxure to tanks, people and weapons systems and if they do not detonate they are rendered useless.

Just walk through an area after such Cluster Bomb devestation has occurred and THEN consider what you posted.

AboveAlpha

 

Well it sounds like we are well equipped. Better killl everyone now before their economies pass us by.

 

Considering as the U.S. Economy goes so does the world economy....we really don't have much to worry about.

AboveAlpha

 

I saw "Fatherland" (Rutger Hauer) on HBO.

The thing is there is one particular event that makes this impossible and that was the development of the Fission Bomb by the U.S.

But let's say....that the U.S. never had a viable Nuclear Program on going....it still would not have mattered as the United States Military by 1945 existed of about 12 Million Fighting Men in all services supported by 50 Million American's in direct support roles.

The U.S. Air Force had developed the B-29 Long Range Heavy Bomber and the day that Herman Göring looked up and saw American P-51 Mustangs escorting Heavy American Bombers right over Berlin was the day that the head of the the German Luftwaffe said outloud....."WE HAVE JUST LOST THE WAR!"

Herman Göring KNEW that as long as American P-51 Mustangs with their Supercharged Engines and their incredible range could escort U.S. Heavy Bombers into the Heart of Germany....the Luftwaffe would have no chance in stopping the destruction of all Nazi Weapons Factories and Ball Berring Pants...etc...etc...etc.

But....let's say we forget about that as well.

Then Germany would have had to deal with the LARGEST NAVAL FLEET WITH A MULTITUDE OF AIRCRAFT CARRIERS EVER BUILT....as the U.S. Navy was operating 6,768 ships on V-J Day in August 1945, including 28 aircraft carriers, 23 battleships, 71 escort carriers, 72 cruisers, over 288 submarines, 377 destroyers, and thousands of amphibious, supply and auxiliary ships.

But let's forget about that as well.

Here is the PROBLEM with any scenario where Germany would have Invaded the U.S.

The United States has the WORLDS MOST HEAVILY ARMED POPULATION and the chances of Germany or any other Nation back then or EVER invading the U.S. successfully are ZERO%.

AboveAlpha

 

Actually, it was a book before it was a movie. I read the book soon after it came out (1992), and did not even see the movie until I caught it on cable a few months ago. Not bad, but it also left out a lot from the original book.

But that was "Alternate History Light", like SS-GB by Len Deighton. The alternate history was more the setting for a period piece then anything else.

If you want to try som real AH, try reading some of the works of Harry Turtledove. He has literally made a believeable work based off a single real event (a lost order) in 1862, and took it to a logical conclusion in 1945.

To really try and see what the results would be, you have to take the ultimate victory worldwide, not just in the local area (like Europe). A victorious Axis Powers would have been global empires spanning continents. And eventually they would have falled into at least some bickering among themselves (Italy-Germany and Germany-Japan more then likely). Compared to the ideas of Japan (Lebensraum and the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere), the goals of Itale were much more modest, essentially reclaiming the ancient Roman Empire at it's zenith.

And National Socialism (not just "Socialism", that is something else) would likely have only really spread throughout Europe. Italy and Japan were not trying to expand "National Socialism" as much as they were building empires by conquering inferior races. Their puppet states would never have had any degree of independence at all, and always be controlled by their leaders. At least Germany showed it was willing to give their vassal states at least some degrees of local autonomy.

 

I don't know if I am the only person who knows this but if some members remember the movie STARSHIP TROOPERS which was directed Dutch director, screenwritter and producer Paul Verhoeven....was a comentary upon what an American Style National Socialistic World Government would look like as it was presented as Earth vs. the Intelligent Bug's in an US OR THEM ALL OUT WAR!!

In the movie people had the right to go about their lives and live them in a Free Society yet it was only through MILITARY SERVICE that a person could become a CITIZEN and only Citizen's voted.

What was so interesting about this concept is that it very much MIRRORS the world of Today as it would be difficult for anyone to deny that the United States very much RUN'S THE SHOW Globally and that even I was surprised at the amount of interest that is shown during the election of a U.S. President as it has become sort of a POLITICAL SPECTATOR SPORT for the rest of the Planet but ONLY AMERICAN CITIZEN'S VOTE FOR WHO WILL BECOME PRESIDENT.

I think this is what Paul Verhoeven was going for along with the Nazi Names for Military Leadership such as SKY MARTIAL.....but the Military Training was not that of the manner the NAZI's brainwashed their own forces into believing no one could beat them....it was much more an AMERICAN MILITARY TRAINING....in that YOU WERE A PROFESSIONAL.....and that you were the PROTECTORS OF EARTH.

I thought about this for some time after seeing that movie and now Mushroom reminded me of it again.

AboveAlpha

 

As good as the movie may have been, it was actually a disgrace to the momory and writing of Robert Heinlein. And Paul Verhoeven even admitted that he had never read the original book!

The book was not "right wing", in the original book the government was not even National Socialist but a meritocracy! Serve the government in some way (any way, not just in the military) for a number of years and you get full citizenship. Do not serve the government, and you get full legal status and equal protection as a resident, you simply can not hold public office or vote.

So once again, here you have a perfect example of when somebody takes an idea from a book (or in this case their own imagination), and then runs an entirely different way from it. In fact, the original screenplay was not even based upon his book at all, but the producers licensed the ST name because it was well recognized.

In the background of the book, Mr. Heinlein explained how this government came about. After a future World War and everything had been destroyed, some groups of Veterans formed local governments. Realizing that they were more efficient at organizing groups for survival (and doing a better job then the self-serving politicians who they replaced), this became the pattern they followed as they combined with other local governments until a single planetary government formed.

"Federal Service", be it a teacher, a trash collector, or a soldier was the key to achieving full rights. You could be a research scientist working on a new food product, a police officer keeping order, or in the Infantry. All you had to do was dedicate yourself to a period of at least 2 years to serving the country ahead of yourself.

Of course, the book is also a kind of pollitical commentary by Mr. Heinlein itself. It came about as he was in the middle of writing probably his other most famous work (Stranger In A Strange Land), when he read a full page advertisement by the National Committee for a Sane Nuclear Policy which urged a stop to all nuclear testing and suspending all future construction and research into nuclear arms. And being not only an author but Anapolis grad this irked him so Starship Troopers was his response.

A world set up and run by "Veterans", people who had served their country selflessly, protecting the majority who simply want to live comfortable and take no responsibility for themselves. Of course, to those of the "me generation", that sounds horribly fascist. Place others and other ideals before yourself and your own ideals? Why, that must come from NAZIs!

 

Could have happened. But very unlikely.
Only if our forces were so depleted from European and Asian theaters that we were relying solely on US citizens to fight. That would be the only way we could lose.

 

It's actually a good idea. A republic based on earned citizenship would have a better caste of voters than our current "fog a mirror" type.

 

Robert Heinlein was rather an interesting individual. Born in Missouri, he attended Anapolis and intended to be a career Navy Officer. However, he only served from 1929-1934, being medically discharged after contracting tuberculosis. And far from being "Right Wing", he was a strong supporter of Upton Sinclair, and many Liberal and Socialist causes. However, he was also a comitted American, and believed the nation should be as strong as possible, with a formidable military.

And anybody who has ever read his works can not avoid his social commentary imprinted in them, from the free love and communes in Stranger In A Strange Land, to the future society in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and even comments on religion in Job: A Comedy of Justice. Everybody who knew Mr. Heinlein knew he was very much a Liberal and Socialist, however one that was also a supporter of the military and devoted to his nation.

But not a "National Socialist" as most think of, such as Hitler. Closer to a non-expansionist Mussolini.

But I loved his idea of a meritocracy, where only those who have served can lead.

 

Socialism would fairly describe his views in the 1930's when he worked on Upton Sinclair's governor campaign in California, but he was more libertarian by the late 50's.

 

If Germany and Japan won?

The America haters would be on Cloud Nine, speaking either German or Japanese.

 

The Confederacy had a better chance of winning than the Axis.

 

The idea of...well in the Movie at least....Military Service get's you Citizenship...rang well with me.

I have never read the book but you description soulds even better as it makes sense that dedicating at least a portion of your life to serve the Nation and others....allows that person to participate in Voting.

And I have run into some people who thought it to be Fascist....but then again....look at what is going on in the world as those who take and give nothing back try to tell those of us who have ACTUALLY SERVED in one form or another...how it is WE who are the problem!!!

AboveAlpha

 

Actually serving your country, instead of your country serving you.

My God, what an absolutely Fascist concept! Anybody who says anything even close to that should be shot in the head!

 

I sometimes go to this Bar next to Mt. Holyoke College and this is an area where we have Smith College, Amherst, U-Mass, Hampshire College, Elms College, Baypath University, Westfield State...etc.

I am practically a NAZI at that Bar! LOL!!!

AboveAlpha

 

As I often tell people, often this can simply be an effect of region.

When I was in Alabama, I was damned near a Democrat, with my concepts of aid to those who needed it, equal treatment to everybody reguardless of race, religion, or sexual orientation.

A decade later, I am back in California, and my politics have not changed a bit. But my concepts of working for what you get, law and order, and not having things given to you that you do not deserve damned near make me a NAZI.

 

I am often in Europe and it absolutely BOGGLES MY MIND to see the Strikes there get out of hand as they turn into all out STREET TO STREET WARFARE!!!

Something like that I have told friends of mine in Europe would NEVER be allowed to happen in the States as Protestors in Europe armed with Molotov Cocktails firebomb unarmed Police that are only equipped with Clear Polymer Sheilds and Water Cannons push back the mob that do everything and anything they can to try to injure Police.

My friends say that the Police should not be armed but if I was a Cop and some masked A$$#@!E was trying to firebomb me...I WOULD SHOOT HIM!!

They turn over cars, smash windows of shops and steal everything and anything they can and it's like the cop's do very little to stop this.

AboveAlpha

 

And we thank them in Australia and Canada, because without their gumption we'd lose universal health care.

 

And you think anarchy and violence are acceptable, just so you get that free health care?

You are welcome to it then. I would rather have law and order, thank you very much. Then I will not need to use that free health care because some union thug did not like how I walkwd past his picket line and beat the crap out of me.

 

They do have peace in Europe. Those police are brutal and tough over there. Australian have gotten caned in riots because of lacking experience . The French riot police have weighted capes like batmanDon't you worry about that. The Europeans are extremely oppressed. They just aren't oppressed by health insurance companies.

There's no peace when you get sick or injured and you have to sell your house because your health insurer had a loophole. Absolutely monstrous situation.

 

Ironic thing is, one of the first things Hitler imposed upon his country was Universal Health Care. So by your reasoning, Hitler should have been allowed to win the war.

What Batman capes and oppressive insurance companies have to do with WWII, I have no idea.

 

Well, the Allies did lose Europe and the Pacific, so we already know how that scenario turned out ... it was all taken back, and then some, but in any case, neither Japan nor Germany had the means to merely just peacefully occupy the US, much less launch an assault that would amount to anything; they would have been way too busy consolidating and managing their own local problems. Only the US and Great Britain had the means and know how to launch those kinds of operations, in large scale and on multiple fronts. See FDR's willingness to take gambles, like Operation Torch; it doesn't get a lot of oohs and ahhhs since it ended up being non-contested by the local French, but it only had a 50% of ever even arriving in the first place, and even though it wasn't a 'battle' per se it was a definite turning point in the war.

In order to truly pacify Britain would have required a much larger operation than Germany and Japan combined could manage, for one, and a British Navy being fed by the US along with the US's own Navy made them both pretty much land-locked in a short time.