What Should the borders of Israel and Palestine be?

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by Dayton3, Mar 1, 2024.

  1. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Banned

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    Assume that all of us can agree that ultimately

    1) The Palestinians should have their own country.
    2) Israel should have defensible borders.

    With those two conditions what should be the borders of the two nations? You can rule out the pre 1967 borders as those borders reduce Israel to such a narrow strip (14 miles IIRC near Tel Aviv) that the country would be basically indefensible
     
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  2. Tipper101

    Tipper101 Banned

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    Somewhere far, far away from Israel, like how about in the middle of Iran. The way things are going we’ll have to bomb Iran into the Stone Age anyway so there’ll be lots of extra space for em.
     
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  3. flyboy56

    flyboy56 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no Palestine, it’s the Gaza Strip. I’m waiting for someone to provide a map showing Palestine as a state or country. Palestinians do not want a two state solution. They and the Arab countries want the complete destruction of Israel.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2024
  4. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Great question. As a Labour - Kadima Party supporter I am one of those who wants a two state solution and am not as rigid as Netanyahu and Likud and certain right wing parties in Israel but pretty much simply listen to Israelis about their future as I do Palestinians about there's keeping in mind I am Jewish, volunteered in Israel and believe Israel has much a right to a Jewish state as Muslims do their states.

    I remind people constantly Jordan was created in 1923 illegally by Britain from 90% of the land that was supposed to go to a Jewish state and was created specifically as a Jew free Palestinian Muslim state and remains one and its coat of arms calls itself Palestinian.

    We need to remind people the West Bank has never been part of any nation although it was temporarily occupied by Jordan and parts of it now by Israel. Gaza Strip was created as an open air prison by Gamel Nasser to punish Muslims who fled Israel and refused to fight. Calling it a state evolved for ONE reason, Egypt abandon its prison and the people there did not want to live in a Jewish state as Muslims like other Muslims. Likewise the term Palestinian only became a reference to national identity when Arafat failed to kill King Hussein of Jordan during the Black Sabbath uprising of 1967. That failed murder, caused Hussein to expel him to Tunisia and stop providing West Bankers citizenship.

    Up until that failed attempt all Palestinians who called themselves that and were Muslim were automatically given Palestinian citizenship in the state of Jordan if they requested it. Those descendants of people who fled Israel in 1948-1949 were in fact arrested and put into camps by Syria, Iraq, Lebanon BUT NOT Jordan or for that matter Israel.

    Israel in fact let certain Muslims return but then the Arab League nations expelled 900,000 Jews making it impossible for Israel to take back specific Muslims who had left as they had to take them in.

    Most importantly many of the people on the West Bank moved there from Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt, and were never Palestinian but displaced Palestinians and stole their land, so much so Arafat blew up the land titles office to hide that fact. The myth of the Palestinian comes about in 1967 as a national identity and its not even clearly understood in the West. When its used by Hamas, 500 other terror cells or the PA it means the land where all of Israel and Jordan are plus the West Bank and Gaza and it means a Muslim caliphate.

    The people in the West who now support Hamas, have no clue about Jewish, Muslim and Christian history and how each people as well as Druze, Beduins, have legal rights to land not withstanding what students on campus think.

    The irony is the 450,000 Hasidic Jews in and around Hebron and pockets and Jerusalem may not even be Zionist, i.e., many believe until the Messiah returns the state of Israel can not be created so the current state is a blasphemy against God. They join those who do not want Israel to exist at all and yet the PA has made it clear they will be expelled from the West Bank.

    Hamas and the PA provide to sets of speeches-one for the West and one for the Middle East Arab speaking audience. Their Arab script calls for the extermination of all Jews worldwide. Their script for the West gets tamed down.

    Those who insist Israel is evil and can not respond to Hamas and must engage in a ceasefire because it kills Palestinian civilians never on this or any thread suggest what then happens. They simply make excuses why Hamas are violent.

    No.

    I know Palestinians that make NO excuses for Hamas or the PA or violent extremists claiming to be Muslim. They protest them and have been forced to flee the Middle East or be killed. I know such people. They want a peaceful two state solution as do most Israelis.

    Do not estimate however how easy it is t enrage and recruit the next generation from the ashes of Gaza. Therein is a huge dilemma. On one level Hamas has to be removed from holding its people hostage so they can see it is possible to live free side by side Israel. On the other hand in so doing, tomorrow's terrorists are being created from the turmoil of pulling them apart.

    So let us be clear. For there to be peace, Israel's IDF must be seen as an army that liberates Palestinians not occupies them. It must as it did prior to Hamas being overtaken by a violent Syrian Muslim Brotherhood cell go back to working hand in hand with Muslim charities rebuilding Gaza into a community from the oil revenue off shore.

    This should be funded by Saudi Arabia, and run with the help of Egypt,Jordan, and Israel and Palestinians who fled to the West and want to return and live peacefully with Israel.

    This requires a complete de-militarization of Gaza and for that matter the West Bank. It will require moving specific Israelis out of settlements they now live in which is going to cause a civil war in Israel and require Israelis to deal with it.

    Israel can not do that as long as Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Turkey and Iran remain in a state of terror and war with it.

    International peacekeepers with the exception of Canada, failed to remain neutral in the past and were openly anti Israel.

    To try unite any Muslim nation to work peacefully on rebuilding Gaza and the West Bank into non military protectorates of Egypt, Jordan, Israel and Saudi Arabia will be impeded by Iran who see agitation of Palestinians as the best way to cause chaos with Saudi Arabia, UAE and other Sunni Muslim countries as Iran wants to control the Middle East.

    Furthermore as long as Putin and China see Iran as a valuable ally trying to neutralize Iran from interfering will be impossible.

    That all said it is conceivable to create peaceful solutionsif terrorism is defused. The shape of peace could take many borders without terrorism.

    It would start with Gaza City and the Strip in my opinion becoming a demilitarized protectorate of Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan except for East Jerusalem and a designated area of the West Bank that would become a Jewish protectorate.

    The persons in these non Jewish protectorates would have the right to be multiple citizens of Jordan, Palestine no.2 and Egypt.

    A common market between Jordan, Egypt, Israel could be created to allow Palestinian trade in and out of their ports and airports not to mention exchanges of goods.

    This is all for now Dayton way in the future.

    Let us be realistic. Muslim extremism is still the norm and they are about 300 years behind the West in developing critical thinking and a reasoning process that is not literal and requires a flexible belief system to generate tolerant two way solutions.

    I say this as well without malice but as fact you can look up for yourself, The majority of the Middle East (outside Palestinians) is still illiterate and throughout the Middle East engaging in procreation between first cousins is prevalent causing very serious cognitive and other congenital medical issues of impairment.

    That is a fact and both are huge impediments to evolving to a system where people would or could challenge what they are told and not simply repeat what someone in a religious or military uniform demands of them.

    These are sociological and psychological phenomena that create a huge gap between Israel and the West and the Middle East in terms of mutual co-existence.

    Palestinians ironically have the most Western trained ideologues and highest rates of education and literacy making many considered ungovernable by the Arab world which is yet another problem. No one in the Sunni Muslim Arab League of Nations wants to work with them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2024
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  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Near death experiencer Dannion Brinkley.....
    in 1975 had a brush with death and was shown that soon the nation of Jordan would join with the nation of Israel.........
    .....
    I do believe that that event is coming!!!!!!





    Please pray or meditate on Canada's P. M. brokering Jordan - Israel peace deal?



    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2024
  6. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    The Palestinians have had three chances for their own country and to live in peace, they can go live in one of the other Arab/Muslim states.
     
  7. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Banned

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    Which other Muslim nation wants them?
     
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  8. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I could care less but why don't they want them?
     
  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True..... no Islamic nation wants the Palestinians...........

    In Iraq for example they were regarded as being too OBEDIENT TO SADDAM...........

    too hard working.......

    too industrious..........

    and too intelligent and too creative..............

    Native born Iraqis could NOT COMPETE WITH PALESTINIANS!!!!!!!!!????????


    Are the Palestinians the Jews NOT expelled from Judaea after Bar Kochba Revolt?

    AND......

    Are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's grandchildren: Palestinians?????

    .....




    Most native citizens of truly Arab nations REGARD PALESTINIANS AS BEING TOO "JEWISH????!!!!"


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsvi_Misinai


     
    Last edited: May 25, 2024
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  10. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Call the Separation Fence the official border.

    And by that I mean the Fence that has actually been built, not any of the proposed Fence routes deep into the West Bank that international pressure prevented Israel from ever building.

    In the Gush Etzion area, where Israel did not build a Separation Fence, place the border immediately west of Route 60, leaving Route 60 and Efrat on the Palestinian side of the border, but giving the remainder of the settlement block to Israel.
     
  11. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Israel should take Gaza and the West Bank, keep the Golan Heights as well.There is already a two state solution, and Arabs got 85% of the Mandate, so any new Arab terrorist states should be carved out of Jordan or Syria. Arabs in the region considered themselves Syrians until the' Palestinian People' scam was invented in the 1950's.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2024

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