~why johnny (atheist) can't beleive ~ and the cure~

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by RevAnarchist, Sep 14, 2014.

  1. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    The short version; Skip the blue font where I describe why I kicked atheism out of my life (ie can no longer belief atheism as a logical viable system of belief or paradigm of reality). The talking point is in in the last paragraphs in black.

    The looooong version or skip to the black font~

    This thread is not intended to be a we vs. them debate. In the first part of this thread I will describe why I was an atheist before I began a life long search for ’truth’, or the big question ’If not atheism what belief system is most logical‘? Also of course today I am a ‘Zionist open theology Christian*’. As a real, honest to God (no pun intended) reverend (complete with wall hanging masters degree) I am intensely curious as to why atheists are atheists lol. Everyone is different even if its only in the small details. Personally speaking I have no choice but to believe as I do. Its like an internal balance scale. When the evidence circumstantial or empirical tilts the scale one way or another its that is the way I must believe. And it changes often because evidence discoveries etc are always emerging. For example, I began life as an atheist, raised with tutelage of two beautiful kind, loving parents. One was a agnostic/believer, the other was an atheist. I was an atheist, while at the same time almost detesting Christianity largely because I felt the world was just too evil for a loving God to be watching over us. As for why I did not believe in an deistic, or non-personal creator ’being’ I came to the conclusion helped by my studies that a mythological entity was not needed to describe the whys of the universe. Why create something when all of the universes secrets would soon be revealed by our math science and physics ? All the above was buttressed by the era I was going to college. It was a 1990’s revival of the 1966>1972 ‘God is dead’ era (see the 1966 time mag cover) and besides Occam's razor and or KISS was another efficient and believable paradigm.

    Ok , (the above) I just wanted everyone to know why I was an atheist, you know tit for tat. I am hoping the membership will open up and tell all, i.e. why they chose to be a theist or an atheist, or other ie LeVay Satanist or (European) witch or ? I had intended this thread to discuss why some of us can visualize and belief in things that are not tangible. You know the type maybe you are someone that if you can not see touch etc it its probably not real or if it is real its not important! Maybe next time, if there is any interest for it.

    Ok again; Please tell, why are you an atheist or? And why did you choose that belief system, or paradigm of reality ? Oh the cure? Lol, that is part two! : { >



    View attachment 29996


    reva
     
  2. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    I started as a theist, I actually started to train as a vicar .. but I found the more I researched Christianity teachings the more I found I had to stretch my imagination in order to accommodate it, there came a tipping point where my "faith" could no longer sustain that requirement and I abandoned my training.

    I have no real issues with people of faith, the issues I have are with organized religion, which to me is nothing more than an organization of control over others.

    I consider myself an atheist, I do not think that just because we do not have all the answers yet that the only answer is "god did it"
     
  3. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The first 15 years or so, of my life were spent in Catholic school and daily study of scripture. As my brain developed and I began to understand science I found much of what I had been "Taught" to be falsehood. This started me on a path of further exploration of many aspects of scientific knowledge and the beginnings of something akin to anger for being deceived and indoctrinated by the adults I had grown to respect.
    In time it became clear this anger was displaced, I came to understand the actions of these people were not meant to deceive as they truly believed what they were teaching. Instead I simply accepted them as ignorant and purposefully so...I could not respect that. Today I very much dislike religion after studying and reading the texts of most, and coming to the understanding that they are all little more than a control mechanism for societies, and a means of maintaining enough ignorance to keep the masses on a leash.

    As I have yet to see any convincing data that supports ANY version of this God entity...it has not been accepted as a reality.
     
  4. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Reason why I am an atheist? I see no reason not to be. It is not that I do or do not believe in God/s it is just I do not feel any need to believe. My two favourite quotes on this subject come from favourite authors

    First Terry Pratchett

    There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.


    The second from RAH

    History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
     
  5. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do not believe in Gods, but do believe in a higher power, I was raised Christian, but an Out of Body experience as a child set me free from that belief, I then knew that we lived on after death, but it wasn't as the bible said.... took me many years to come to terms with that as I did not want to give up the religion I was raised with


    .
     
  6. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First, nobody chooses what they believe. If we chose, it wouldn't be a belief. People do choose religious membership and practice but that needs to be seen as distinct from fundamental theological beliefs (after all, religion doesn't even require belief in any deities).

    So, I'm atheist because I'm atheist. I simply don't believe and couldn't actively change that even if I wanted to. That's not an inability to visualise the intangible though (I am a computer programmer by profession). I'd suggest the key factor that is different for you is that you express a need to understand exactly why the universe is the way it is, hence your statements about a Christian god not making any sense to you. I'm personally comfortable with not knowing (not being able to know) why the universe is the way it is and with the idea that there could be no fundamental reasoning at all (note that is different from knowing how the universe works).

    I'm suggest that your choice of religion would be largely driven by your upbringing rather than the development of your fundamental beliefs. Had you been brought up somewhere other than the USA, I'd suggest your religion would be quite different, even if the beliefs behind it were similar.
     
  7. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Being an avid reader and reading well above my age level in junior and senior high, I was an atheist for a couple of years after slowly transitioning from an average Sunday school attending child.

    In my junior year of HS, I had a near-death experience and it convinced me there was something more to existence. Yeah, I've read all of the medical and psychological reports on such things, but this was different from a dream or drug-induced hallucination. No, I didn't see Jesus or God, but the experience convinced me that neither the theist religions nor the atheists were correct.
     
  8. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    I believe in lots of things I can't see like quarks, black holes, clean air etc. But since no really rational arguement for the Existance of a God has been made that belief doesn't make much logical sense. On the other hand no really acceptable arguements can be made to prove a God doesn't exist since nobody seems to actually define " God". Therefore in my opinion the best option is Agnosticism.
     
  9. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I tried several times to be supersitious, but always ended up laughing out loud. Pixies, Elves, werewolves, gods .... all a bit of fun, and great for genre fiction, but I am unable to take any of them seriously - on account of their complete and utter failure to DO ANYTHING. all we have (of these mythical creatures) is what we imagine of them.
     
  10. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's fine. I'm not superstitious either, but superstition and spiritual awareness are two different things.
     
  11. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so :)
    It's just two different ways of saying "thinks I think about things which probably don't exist.
     
  12. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which is why atheism is as much a "religion" as theism; they claim to know something they cannot possibly know.

    There are mysteries in the Universe which we cannot explain. Number one is what caused the Big Bang? If our Universe was oscillating, that wouldn't be such a problem, but now that it's well proved to be a one-shot expansion into "the Big Chill", we have to ponder the question of origin. That doesn't mean some old white guy with a beard on a golden throne or angels sent to punish gays, but it certainly begs the question about the forces outside our Universe.

    If you want to say "I know nothing about that", that's fine, but don't then turn and say "Nothing is out there" because there obviously is something.
     
  13. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    Theism isn't a religion. Neither is atheism.
     
  14. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Correct, but both involve beliefs that cannot be proven just like religion.
     
  15. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    why johnny (atheist) can't believe ~ and the cure

    Johnny atheist can believe in lots of things but until there is ANY evidence for God why would he believe in such a thing. I became an atheist when I realised that religion is just a way to control people, once you understand that not believing in a god is almost a by-product.

    We know how the religious try to "cure" people of there lack of belief in god, first they try to influence the children, often threatening them with terrifying stories of what will happen if they do not believe. If they don't get you when your young then they will prey on you when your sick or vulnerable, after the death of a loved one seems to be their favourite time. Others try to invoke the end of world, times of world upheaval, plague or famine are always good times for the religious to recruit or "cure".
     
  16. ronmatt

    ronmatt New Member

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    No doubt that Atheism is as much a 'religion' as any religion that has as it's primary deity a supernatural entity. Most atheists hold up 'science' as their 'deity'. Few understand that science they are so dedicated to. They point to the great scientific minds as their 'prophets' just as their counterparts point to their prophets. They had their 'holy scriptures' in the form of scientific papers and theories and hypothesis'. There are no differences in the passion of their belief. They have equal dogmatic assumptions that requires faith. The 'Big Bang', unexplainable as it is, simply happened. The nature of Quantum Mechanics simply 'is'. Faith. Ask an atheist how or why evolution works, they can only reply with theory and hypothesis...and a pinch of 'faith'. Many would probably lay down their lives in support of their 'faith'. There's little or no difference between an atheist and a deist. They just put their 'faith' in different places.
     
  17. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All great points. While I think the majority of theists and atheists simply have their beliefs and mind their own business, as you point out, not all do. Activist or militant Atheists are every bit as prejudiced, pushy and proselytizing as those they hate. As you point out, they hold up science as their scripture, but they use emotion in their rhetoric. Why else would one of the "prophets" of Atheism, Richard Dawkins, advise atheists to mock theists or say "“Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can (*)(*)(*)(*) off"?
     
  18. ronmatt

    ronmatt New Member

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    Wisdom resides in open minds. Closed minds nurture fear and loathing.
     
  19. contrails

    contrails Active Member

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    I've always been an atheist, and it wasn't anything I chose. I just never saw any reason to believe that something had to have created the universe. In fact, I find the idea that a universe filled with so much beauty and intelligent life could come about on it's own far more "spiritual" than any religion out there.
     
  20. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    Stroking goatee...'very interesting', seriously it is. I hope my Freud bit didn't offend you. I would like to keep the mood light if possible even though a good flame makes things interesting as well. Ok, yes, I didn't get to meet that many theists or those going into clergy on campus because I had a new campus every few months or so. But out of about ten friends that I kept touch with six lost their faith by a major degree and chose another profession entirely. I would wager that ultimately half of the students who attend undergrad and grad school for the purpose of earning some type of religious degree change their plans. Knowledge and the university level teaching that provides it are especially hostile to religion. I am speaking from experience when I say the teaching of science is somewhat to virulent hostile to Christianity or religion in general excluding some philosophy classes.

    Also some students as I did learn to substitute science for God even when metaphysical issues are raised. An example of a MP issue would be 'why did the universe begin to exist' etc. Lastly some simply feel and may have been lied to as they grew from children to young adults and choose atheism as a direct opposite of what their parents taught. Or maybe none of the above is why you chose to abandon religion? In any case, cheers....

    reva
     
  21. ronmatt

    ronmatt New Member

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    Why did you elect to limit yourself so? So religion is 'just a way to control people', not exactly a revelation. So is politics; are you an anarchist too? How about ideologies? Do you subscribe to any, in any way shape or form? Life abounds with 'control mechanisms'. They're not all that bad. Left to our own devices, chaos would prevail.
     
  22. ronmatt

    ronmatt New Member

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    You don't think about things that don't exist?...c'mon, bet ya do. If people didn't 'think about things that didn't exist, we'd all still be painting images of deer and elephants on cave walls with charcoal sticks.
     
  23. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In what strange way do you think that recognising religion for what it is limits me?
    You think we do not live in chaos and anarchy?, the only certainty is death every thing else is purely chance.
     
  24. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am an agnostic atheist.

    I cannot prove the non-existence of a creator of our universe.

    However, no one has yet proven the existence of a creator or anything remotely "supernatural" that all religious dogma is wholly dependent on.

    I distain the ultimate human conceit of a being so powerful to have created an entire universe to hold its human creations, apparently crafted in its own image, to figuratively kiss its holy posterior in the hopes of passing a series of arbitrary tests in order to achieve prefect immortality at its side so as to directly kiss said posterior. Seems an ominpotent creator should be a tad less insecure and frankly any entity that DEMANDS prostration, unconditional obedience and worship is a tad too conceited for my liking.

    I respect everyone's right to faith and belief in a particular dogma, but that does not mean I must also have respect for the object of that faith and its associated dogma. I expect the same from everyone else, but am frequently disappointed.
     
  25. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    My upbrining was somewhat similar at least we have some points...er well maybe not! For example I am very motivated by science and have been since childhood. By the time I was 14 or so I was convinced science would explain everything someday. However when the big bangs theistic implications became apparent, that was the shot across the bow that my life would soon change. Then in college I was introduced to some pro ID/Christian apologists contraband which after reading several half dozen books By Koon, Craig, Behe el at the same time I devoured by reading not eating then popular books by science writers like Wrinkles in time, a brief history, the emperor has no clothes, A world without time which was about Einstein and his bbb Kurt Godel. My life did change. There was no one event just many small events and information's' that morphed me from atheist to theist in less than a year. Nevertheless, I am beginning to understand the reasons you chose atheism and why you operate as you do. I should have said you and other atheists. When I can understand why someone is angry or has deep beliefs diametrically opposed from my own does make it far easier to deflect the emotion and get to discussing the issue at hand. I appreciate you sharing your comments.

    8a.JPG

    reva
     

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