Why the Confederate flag still flies in South Carolina

I simply see it as the battle standard of the largely Scottish southern soldiery, some of whom were my ancestors. Many of them were fighting because they saw the federal government as an alien power invading their homeland, not because they had any vested interest in protecting slavery, which was not in any legal or practical jeopardy in the south at the time of their secession, despite the ongoing dispute about its expansion into new territories.

 

Do you have an actual response to his arguments, or just flippant dismissals?

Except I'm not racist at all. I'm actually a radical racial egalitarian who rejects the validity of racial constructs altogether.

 

You cannot even get a stinkin' sports team to drop a mascot, so I doubt that the American flag is going anywhere soon. Anyway, I doubt that it's flown on any of the reservations.

 

It's flown on the land that was stolen from them by the US government, adding insult to injury.

 

You do think that i am sure
But you cannot deny that the flag has also become the de facto flag of white supremacists
And THAT is the problem

Btw
1858 quote from lincoln


A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become lawful in all the States, old as well as new — North as well as South.

----
The election of Lincoln was the thing that started session
BECAUSE of the above comments
Which meant the handwriting was on the wall

Particularly about no more NEW slave states

And the long term implications of that fact

And note from Lincoln's quote
He was not saying slavery could not persist where it existed
Until it withered away
But he was clearly drawing a line about NEWslave states

As i posted, THAT was the issue
And it was not an immediate threat
But a long term threat to slavery
And THAT was the issue

 

A Heritage of Treason, a Legacy of Genocide, Murder and Lying Betrayal of the lowest kind. The Southerner gave their word to stay in the Union forever, as did all the States. They violated this sacred trust entirely so they could keep others in Bondage.

 

Lincoln was a white supremacist. However (more on this below), the South worried that the Constitution provided a basis for racial equality, which was part of their motivation for forming their own country -- again, see below . . . don't blame me, those are their words, not mine. But slavery? Seriously? Not in real jeopardy? Anyone with a passing knowledge of history at the time knows the South definitely thought it was in jeopardy. They struggled with the North on the slave status of new states entering the Union. The South complained that the Constitution did not provide explicit protections for race-based slavery -- an issue that they "corrected" in their own Articles. The letters of succession from several states specifically mention slavery as being a chief issue -- in fact, other than the election of Lincoln (which, of course, was also an issue because of slavery), it is the only issue pointed out with specificity to be found in the letters of succession. And last but not least, I shouldn't have to remind you that they did lose slavery, so obviously it was in jeopardy.

What wide range of issues are you referring to? The tariff battles that the South had already won? What about trade restrictions? The only tariffs and trade restrictions mentioned in the letters of succession are tariffs and trade restrictions on slaves. I have several Confederate sources telling me that slavery was a major factor, which of course it was, and I can't find a single Confederate source downplaying its importance, unless it was talking about the entire conflict in the most general terms possible and avoiding specifying any particular issue.

And then, of course, we have the Confederacy's own account of things, which Confederate apologists like to ignore:

"The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution . . .

Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right . . .

The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the 'storm came and the wind blew.'

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth . . . "

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

If Confederate apologists want to offer an alternative theory to the one described above, they need to explain why they are a better source than the Vice President of the very institution that we are discussing, and why Confederates did not quickly step up and correct Stephens' "mistake".

 

"tyranny and (PC Buzzword) intolerance"

Doesn't matter that the "tyranny" was on the part of Lincoln and the North's.

Ahhh...."tolerance" a beautiful word!

The Confederate Flag was a sign of intolerance (which it wasn't)....Therefore: We will not tolerate intolerance!

 

Yeah, I agree and I often wondered how they still felt about this history and then I went to hear a lecture given by Sitting Bull's great great grandson at Cooper Union in NYC. When someone asked him what the Native American tribes were doing with the profits made from casinos, he replied that they were buying their land back. I liked that idea as did all the others attending the lecture.

 

It's a symbol that proclaims, "Loser," and some strongly identify with that, but others do not.

Maybe if the victorious United States of America insisted that they continue to display it as a punishment for treason, they'd dump the cloying nostalgia.

As a personal matter, folks should be able to frenetically flail it around in their home all they wish, but it is not a proper public emblem.

 

The anarchist's words mean diddly squat in the larger debate.

You fly the flag and defend the slave owning confederacy. We'll let the readers be the judge of where you stand.

 

You said the CSA represented white supremacy. I pointed out Lincoln was a white supremest as were many in the North. Delaware kept slavery legal after the Civil War, so what does that say about the North? What does it say about you that you have a quote from a white supremacist in your sig? Seems like the South, the North, and you both support white supremacy! But hey, let's forget what people say and do and concentrate on a piece of cloth.

 

Yeah right! No one ever saw a confederate flag other than on the battlefield, back then. That is absolutely ridiculous.

What does that have to do with slaves in the confederacy?

 

Confederates cited slavery as the biggest cause for succession and named racism and slavery as the cornerstones of their new found country. "Intolerance" is about the nicest thing you can say about it.

 

Why is it automatically assumed that statements issued by southern politicians were necessarily representative of the views of the southern people?

When the President issues an executive order, are we to automatically assume it is necessarily representative of the views of the American people?

And the south's best bet for preserving and defending slavery would have been to remain in the union, since nothing short of an all-out invasion would have precipitated its abolition. If anything, their decision to secede was what doomed slavery in the south.

 

<more eyerolls>

That "White Supremacist" Lincoln's actions helped bring an end to slavery once and for all in this nation.




Mod edit: this is getting too personal

 

No, it's factual history.

"The Battle Flag of the Confederacy.

At the First Battle of Manassas, the similarity between the Stars and Bars and the Stars and Stripes caused confusion and military problems. Regiments carried flags to help commanders observe and assess battles in the warfare of the era. At a distance, the two national flags were hard to tell apart. In addition, Confederate regiments carried many other flags, which added to the possibility of confusion. After the battle, General P.G.T. Beauregard wrote that he was "resolved then to have [our flag] changed if possible, or to adopt for my command a 'Battle flag', which would be Entirely different from any State or Federal flag."[4] He turned to his aide, who happened to be William Porcher Miles, the former chair of Committee on the Flag and Seal. Miles described his rejected national flag design to Beauregard. Miles also told the Committee on the Flag and Seal about the general's complaints and request for the national flag to be changed. The committee rejected this idea by a four to one vote, after which Beauregard proposed the idea of having two flags. He described the idea in a letter to his commander General Joseph E. Johnston: "I wrote to [Miles] that we should have two flags &#8212; a peace or parade flag, and a war flag to be used only on the field of battle &#8212; but congress having adjourned no action will be taken on the matter &#8212; How would it do us to address the War Dept. on the subject of Regimental or badge flags made of red with two blue bars crossing each other diagonally on which shall be introduced the stars, ... We would then on the field of battle know our friends from our Enemies." http://www.civilwar.com/resources/313-flags/150182-confederate-flag-history.html#The_Battle_Flag

Nothing, but it sure has something to do with slaves in the Union.

 

Yup.

 

He's a pretty good authority on the founding of his country, I'm sorry. I'll post a dozen or so other quotes tomorrow if you'd like. Meanwhile, if you can find a Confederate official who attributed the main cause of the war to anything else . . .

And no, the South's best bet for defending slavery was not the Union. Did you read what the Vice President had to say? Have you studied, at all, the statements from Southerns worried about the abolition movement in the North and of Lincoln's abolitionist leanings? Have you not read the letters of succession naming slavery as a chief concern?

 

Why? Because you say so?

How can I be a racist when I don't even believe in racial constructs?

Many people defend Thomas Jefferson, who was a slave owner. Does that make them racists?

 

They elected them. Der. They went to war gung ho to preserve and defend the CSA cause. Stop it with this nonsense about how the only the tiny populace of southern politicians were the ones fer it,
It's embarrassing.

If the S. pop was against it -- they wouldn't have gotten up the Army they did -- it was well over a year after the S seceded the first draft came about in the CSA. Those volunteers were hep and hootin to FIGHT.

 

You didn't really answer my question.

Politicians routinely do and say things that are not necessarily representative of what the average person believes. Why should it be any different for southern politicians?

Then feel free to explain how slavery could have been abolished in the south absent an invasion and occupation.

Yes, I've read and studied them, and consider them largely propaganda meant to frighten people and inflame resentment towards the federal government.

In reality, most of the southern people who fought for the confederacy did not own slaves, so it makes little sense to suggest that they would have fought and possibly died to protect it and its wealthy beneficiaries.

 

So everything Bush or Obama do is necessarily representative of the will of the American people?

Of course they were ready and willing to fight. Their homeland was being invaded by an alien power that they had been resisting for decades.

 

Yes. Because it was one radical anarchists views and you place profound importance on him.

You fly the flag and defend the slave owning confederacy. We'll let the readers be the judge of where you stand.

 

Do you know how we can tell they aren't representative? Because people speak up and say they aren't being represented. That didn't happen in the South. This was one of the founding fathers of the Confederacy . . . he has as much to say about the founding of his country as Jefferson or Franklin had to say about theirs. But once again, if you have another contemporary source that provides an alternate theory, I'm willing to hear it. And again, I'll have several more sources for you by tomorrow.

The Confederate apology movement can only exist by disallowing the Confederates to speak for themselves.

Ask the Confederates who thought the institution was in danger.

So your account of the Confederacy's motivations is more accurate than their own words?

This is, by far, the weakest argument that the Confederate apologists have. Most of the people who support tax cuts for the wealth are not wealthy. Many of the people who support legal gun ownership don't own guns. Most of the people who support gay marriage do not intend on getting a same sex marriage.

The South considered slavery essential to their economy -- and, at the time, I think it is obvious it was. And let's not forget the wide-ranging fear that the slaves would become dangerous if freed, and the widespread belief that this slavery was an essential part of Southern Christianity.