Would (Freedom Dividend) Universal Basic Income work?

Amnesty in 1986 is literally destroying the country as we speak. One more dose of amnesty and I'll pack my **** and move out of this place because it will be a permanent democrat shithole from then on.

 

Good analysis.

I don't think it would ever work in the USA.

A complete non-starter.

Just WAY too many people that would spend it on Gambling, Drugs, and Hookers.

 

I just don’t see some state governments being cooperative in the process.... I don’t like the idea either but I would exchange it for serious reform and security. Asylum laws revamped Immigration courts properly staffed and funded Visa revamps Borders more secure with drones more funding for ICE more checkpoints all areas without walls secured. That’s just me though I can understand the hesitation as well

 

I'm not against the idea. I lived in Alaska for 8 years and the state gives out about $2000 a year per person. It didn't crashed the economy. According to this video, if we reallocate all the funds going into our various welfare programs to establishing a UBI, each citizen can receive as much as $1200 a month.

 

The Alaska Permanent Fund is a constitutionally established permanent fund managed by a state-owned corporation, the Alaska Permanent Fund Corporation (APFC).[1] It was established in Alaska in 1976[2] by Article 9, Section 15 of the Alaska State Constitution[3] under Governor Jay Hammond. From February 1976 until April 1980, the Department of Revenue Treasury Division managed the state's Permanent Fund assets, until, in 1980, the Alaska State Legislature created the APFC.[4] As of the end of 2016, the fund is worth nearly $55 billion that has been funded by oil revenues.[5]

Ok well one the revenue source is from new money(oil) not taking old money and moving it, two I’m fine with that on a state level if a state wants to pool money together to do that fine but on a federal level I’m not. I’m sure that has its pros and cons and the good thing about it being on a state level if you don’t like the drawbacks you can move to another state that doesn’t do that. Also is the economy of Alaska diverse enough to be a barometer of how well that sort of plan would do nation wide?

 

Try to think how it would work in a gold based currency situation. Imagine all our money is backed by gold, then explain how you're going to pay for a UBI of 12k a year for everybody.

Where's the gold going to come from? You can't print your way out, so where is the gold going to come from?

 

Didn't work in Sweden. Won't work here.

 

HOn the Alaskan Permanent Fund:

But there’s a big caveat: Alaska pays these checks out of an investment fund financed by oil money. Taxing or collecting royalties for natural resources is just about the best way for the government to pay for stuff. Oil is in the ground, there’s a limited supply of it, and taxing it doesn’t reduce the amount left in the ground. It might reduce companies’ incentive to bring it out of the ground, but frankly, given climate change, that’s probably a good thing. Relying too heavily on oil money can cause political dysfunction, but distributing the money as cash to citizens helps reduce opportunities for corruption.

Now one of two things are happening inflation from their fund is causing inflation or inflation has always been high due to conditions in Alaska and those same conditions plus high prices cause to state government incentived people to stay by offering that fund.

 

It's paid from oil revenues. Alaska has a ton of oil, and the residents are profiting from it. I don't see a problem with that.

A UBI paid from something the federal government profits from? Hey, no problem! What's the product?

 

Yes why it’s able to work in Alaska I believe is because that fund is essentially new money to the economy not the shuffling around of old money through taxation. I’m not an expert though so if anyone spots a flaw in my theory let me know.

 

Exactly it’s an apples to oranges comparison I believe.

 

Yes UBI is basically Welfare on steroids... I really don’t see a work around for large scale inflation using UBI. People say they want to help other by offering UBI but it seems that everyone in the economy would be hurting due to inflation.

Welfarism and Inflation

Even the noblest politicians and civil servants can no longer be expected to resist the public clamor for social benefits and welfare. The political pressure that is brought to bear on democratic governments is rooted in the popular ideology of government welfare and economic redistribution. It inevitably leads to a large number of spending programs that place heavy burdens on the public treasury. By popular demand, weak administrations seeking to prolong their power embark upon massive spending and inflating in order to build a “new society” or provide a “better deal.” The people are convinced that government spending can give them full employment, prosperity, and economic growth. When the results fall far short of expectations, new programs are demanded and more government spending is initiated. When social and economic conditions grow even worse, the disappointments breed more radicalism, cynicism, nihilism, and above all, bitter social and economic conflict. And all along, the enormous increase in government spending causes an enormous increase of taxes, chronic budget deficits and rampant inflation.

 

At the end of the day, the UBI fanbois need to explain how this is going to be paid for, and they never do. Sometimes there's a commie that sticks their hand up and says "umm, how about we get rich people to pay for it?" but that's just commies, and we all know how their ideas end up, which is far too many bodies and not enough body bags.

I don't even listen to those ***** anymore. Maybe some lefty might want to explain how they're going to generate enough to pay for their UBI, but so far, it's economic illiterates as far as the eye can see.

 

Most of what you are proposing would destroy small business and gut what manufacturing we have left.

 

If it gets to that point then UBI won't matter either because every economy in the world would crash

 

Well yes, it's profits. That's money that can be given out, rather than taken and redistributed.

These UBI people don't seem to understand that profits need to be generated. Do that, and it's just like a profitable stock. You pay the stock holders and nobody has to be forced to pay anything. There's no coercion necessary.

The UBI folks look at what I have and start thinking how they can put it to use better than I can.

"Hey! Let's take some of his money and give it to other people! That will generate all kinds of good stuff because we know how to spend his money better than he does!". BS!!!!! They don't know anything, and are economic illiterates.

 

I'm willing to propose a compromise. Scrap all welfare programs and use the money to fund the UBI.

 

Abolish each and every government program and department without exception. Then try this and I'll be willing to go along.

 

This has happened every single time a new technology was introduced.

It's called progression and people adapt.

How many people did electricity put out of work?

What about the computer?

We survived those just fine.

And frankly if people can't pay their bills now they still won't be able to with 1,000 bucks extra a month. The problem isn't the amount of money they have it's that they don't spend what they do have wisely.

Give them an extra 1,000 and they will just end up with 1,000 dollars more worth of bills they can't pay.

I think it's funny how liberals think that giving people free money somehow will make them manage money better.

 

That's no compromise. That's just renaming one stupid idea for an even worse idea.

Sorry, but no compromise is possible. We're just going to have to kill each other and see who ends up winning.

 

I agree, it's a problem that's going to get worse and worse, however that problem has nothing to do with the feasibility or viability of UBI. Every time one of these threads come in, I jump in to ask how it's going to be paid for. That question is the turd in the UBI punchbowl.
So far the only answers I've gotten are, "the rich" or some variation of Zimbabwe Monetary Theory.

 

Yeah, UBI may be akin to just throwing money at a problem. Politicians sure aren’t going to address this problem until it’s too late. I just don’t know what a viable solution might look like.

 

And another study showing the fallacy of UBI

Universal basic income doesn’t work. Let’s boost the public realm instead

A study of UBI trials concludes that making cash payments to all is no solution to poverty and inequality

......The Alaska Permanent Fund, built from the state’s oil revenues, pays all adults and children a dividend each year – in 2018, it was $1,600 (£1,230). The scheme is popular and enduring; it has been found to produce some positive impacts on rural indigenous groups, but it makes no claim to sufficiency and has done nothing to reduce child poverty or to prevent widening income inequalities.....

...As this week’s report observes, “If cash payments are allowed to take precedence, there’s a serious risk of crowding out efforts to build collaborative, sustainable services and infrastructure – and setting a pattern for future development that promotes commodification rather than emancipation.” This may help to explain why UBI has attracted support from Silicon Valley tycoons, who are more interested in defending consumer capitalism than in tackling poverty and inequality....

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-basic-income-public-realm-poverty-inequality

 

OK

Why would I want to do that???? I haven't worked on the clock for over 40 years and would never want to go back.

Why the heck would I want other employees in the company to know how much I make?? It's none of their business.

Already being done and will raise cost of the companies raising cost to them and thus cost to you.

And get rid of the FISA taxes or a credit against them? How big a company. And since contractors do not work for the company, are not employees OF the company and come and go how do you force them to stay in the 401k when they are not working under a contract with the company?

Well one "loophole" was curtailed by Trump and look at the flak and outrage from the left. What specific "loophole" are you talking about?

The highest earners already pay the same rate, and LOTS more of it, but get less return. If you increase the cap then increase the benefit, only fair.

How are you going to calculate it each year? Do you really think you can get a constitutional amendment passed in order to do so?

And then take it back with your wealth tax?

There are already LOTS of grants and scholarships and my state even offers free two year technical colleges but why should those without a college education subsidize those with college educations? How will this lower the cost of tuition which is THE problem?

Oh I'm all for getting rid of government red tape but why should the government dictate such to people willing to invest in building such property and what do you mean cap interest that a bank can collect? If I build a 10 unit apartment building why should the government dictate what rent I can charge and any future increases?

How do you pay for it and what system?

How about more free market and self sufficiency? How about lower taxes so people can earn more and save more and see their incomes rise and their jobs secured?

 

One thought I have is getting back to more creative and independent fields of work. If machines take over all of the more mechanical jobs, people can go back to being skilled tradesmen, craftsmen, artisans, artists, even farmers... Roles for which automation isn't suited. In fact, it could be looked at as a long sought-after opportunity to free humanity from menial labor in almost every field and allow us the kind of life dreamed of in science fiction. The Star Trek future with no money and people working "for the betterment of humanity" could become a reality thanks specifically and entirely to automation. We could have leisure and wealth, potentially at least. The machines do the work and we do as we please. We not only work to mend our ailing planet after all these years of industrial abuse, but we use that technology to start moving beyond earth as well. We will be free to do what we wish, individually and collectively.

People get so hung up on money. We forget that it's nothing more than a means, a medium of exchange, for converting labor and production into consumable goods and services. The focus should be on doing and accomplishing, not on making money or trying to get a hold of it some other way. Automation opens the path to practically infinite resources, comfort and leisure. In fact, we are practically there already today, but have not developed the kind of economy that would make it possible to distribute all of that to everyone equally around the world.