Susan Collins Unveils a Gun-Control Compromise : No-Fly-No-Buy

Why aren't these people being arrested and prosecuted in the first place?
Either we have a system of justice based on due process (innocent until proven guilty) and the rule of law, or we are now living under the rule of political and administrative dictate. If you feel safer under the latter, what will you do when they start coming for people who you didn't think were supposed to be targeted?


No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

 

its a slippery slope, that list only has 2700 people on it now which is still a lot to examine for any bureaucrat. if you ever heard the phrase good enough for government work, you can relate to what i'm saying.

but that list will expand, and it will include everyone like ordinary criminals and citizens who are suspected of a threat but they aren't sure.

and if you ever been to court or appealed anything in the justice system, you know it takes years for the clogged court system to review your case.

it is a quick fix to a complicated problem, and the price is due process and freedom.

 

"No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land" - Magna Carta, 1215

 

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The ACLU thinks there are 21,000 on the no-fly list as of 2012, but nobody really knows. Nobody really knows how people get on the list, how to get off the list, or even to find out which list you are on.

The ACLU opposes using the various watch lists to prohibit gun sales https://www.aclu.org/blog/washingto...fair-watchlists-not-way-regulate-guns-america

"The government contends that it can place Americans on the No Fly List who have never been charged let alone convicted of a crime, on the basis of prediction that they nevertheless pose a threat (which is undefined) of conduct that the government concedes “may or may not occur.” Criteria like these guarantee a high risk of error and it is imperative that the watchlisting system include due process safeguards—which it does not. In the context of the No Fly List, for example, the government refuses to provide even Americans who know they are on the List with the full reasons for the placement, the basis for those reasons, and a hearing before a neutral decision-maker. "​

And another fundamental problem with using a "list" is that the gun banners will abuse it just as they always abuse every "common sense gun safety" measure. They will simply decide that all "Tea Party" members or even NRA members pose a threat and put them on the list.

 

Another illiberal attempt to circumvent due process of law by using a notoriously flawed and secretive set of watch lists.

If the government wants to strip someone of their constitutional rights, then there is a process for doing that.

It's called "trial by jury" and it's a pillar of western civilization - at least, it's supposed to be.

The idea that the government should be able to strip someone of their constitutional rights based on nothing more than mere suspicion is demented.

It is the kind of authoritarian policy you would expect to find in Soviet Russia or North Korea.

How anyone can support this kind of a policy is absolutely beyond me.

Either their mind is totally overcome with fear or they don't have a liberal bone in their bodies.

What other explanation could there be?

 

personally this upsets me... I had SSSS stamped on my plane tickets for 15 months that it took to get off that list... only after tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer fee's that don't get magically reimbursed after... and I STILL have never gotten an explanation years later... nothing is worse than traveling for business multiple times a month, and every single flight you pass through screening, then right before you board you get pulled aside again in a "random" body search... I've missed several flights because of this and ended up sending employees in my place or driving to places instead... its ridiculous how difficult it is to get off that list alone, I can't imagine the no fly list...

I've never been charged with a crime in my life, I've been involved in numerous business lawsuits, but thats not abnormal at my size... IRS audits are a routine thing personally and business, never had any trouble with them, I've had to get special clearance for some government contracts which included not just myself been directly interviewed multiple times but countless employees as a condition of those contracts...

and after all my horrific personal experiences with this, I'm sitting here struggling to think of how someone without my financial means would have gotten off the list, or what terrorist event in america would have been prevented from this emotional attempt to placate another group of people with a do-nothing bill to appease emotion... and after all these years still trying to rack my brain how I even ended up with an SSSS designation on every ticket, all I can think back to was the day I did not want a portly gentleman who was man handling every crotch that came to him and I asked if I could have another screener or use the body scanner (they were newer at the time)...

to this day, still no reason given... don't tell me this is a compromise or anything that will secure our nation... if someone is that dangerous, they clearly must have done something to warrant it, pursue charges, but don't leave them on a list indefinitely, if you can't determine they are a threat after a couple months, they should be automatically taken off those lists rather than have to hire people to seek legal action in order to do so... thats not american at all... guilty until proven innocent...

 

At least a warrant, preferably trial by jury.

 

And this most basic of human rights was completely, and conveniently, ignored by America during the worst days of Guantanamo Bay.

 

Yeah lets start with Chicago and then listen as the term RACIST is thrown out.........

 

Start anywhere you like, but start. Oh but I forgot, 2A prevents you from doing anything sensible. So it'll be business as usual and the next entirely predictable mass shooting will come around soon enough.

 

and second hand smoke deaths far outweigh that. Where is your outrage?
Secondly please post the gun deaths from legally owned firearms next to the deaths from illegal guns. Then we can compare the odds of getting killed by a lawful gun owner to things like getting struck by lightning....twice.

 

Yes, well when smoke is designed to do nothing else but kill people you can have your argument. I have yet to read of a drive-by smoke inhalation mass killing.
The two worst shooting massacres in British history were committed by idiots with legally-acquired weapons so I couldn't care less whether the weapon used was acquired legally or not. You're no less dead either way.

 

I think it wouldn't have stopped a single (*)(*)(*)(*)ing mass shooting in US history, and only serves as a mechanism to restrict Americans freedoms without oversight, checks and balances, etc. There are unknown arbitrary criteria to get on such a list, there is no notification of such, there is no formal appeal process to get off of it... and no due process whatsoever. Flying is not a right, bearing arms is. (*)(*)(*)(*) that.

 

Guns are designed to protect people. Cigarette smoke is designed to include toxins that addicts the human body and destroy the human lung. As a fact second hand smoke kills more innocent people every year than all gun deaths combined. Dead is dead, why do focus on the lesser threat to public safety?

 

It's the thin edge of the wedge.
Next they will have warrentless searches for anyone on the list, then stopping the right to a fair trial, hell why not just say that anyone one one of these secretive government lists has no Constitutional rights at all.
It goes back to the actual definition of a Constitutional right according to many legal dictionary's.
"This term is given to a right that has been guaranteed by the United States Constitution that cannot be violated by laws or by Congress."
But nobody seems to have told the Government or Congress

 

2A does no such thing. Issue is that politicians and poverty pimps would scream bloody murder if the police would concentrate on disarming criminal gang members. Remove the gang deaths from the total and the U.S. rate plummets dramatically.

A terrorist, or some other arsewipe, is always going to be able to get a gun, see Paris just a few months ago.

 

So how about making it more difficult to get a gun in the first place? Why should that be a problem for anyone?

 

You can avoid smoke and smokers. You can't avoid a bullet or someone deliberately trying to kill you using a gun. What the hell is the problem with gun control measures to at least attempt to stop those known to the authorities as potential bad guys from getting a gun? It isn't as if those against these proposals don't own guns, and probably several, already-and nobody that I can see is planning a ban.
So the problem is...?

 

How does a child avoid the smoke from its parents who smoke in the home and in the car?

 

And the US in the last couple decades has passed regulations to cut down on we one hand smoke exposure.

 

You know what, keep your stupid laws, your dumb obsession with the 2A and continue avoiding common-sense proposals which might prevent terrorists from killing you. If America is that stupid you deserve whatever you get, frankly.

 

And Cons and moralists would scream bloody murder if you actually removed the one thing that drives gang profits and conflict: the prohibition of drugs.

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You raise a good point. I mean, we have to regulate bathrooms to protect children according to the right, why should we not regulate parents smoking for the same reason?

 

It's a good compromise. It does not jeopardize the FBI's ability to investigate, provides relief if one is on the list and proves to the contrary, and protects the public of those who should not be purchasing said firearms.

However, the reality is that this bill will not pass with the NRA tripling down on defeat of such a bill.

 

What a joke.

An arbitrary list to have a right removed from free people.

Whoever supports this should leave this country, they are clearly not ok with the concept of American freedoms.