China warns of 'worst consequences' for any country that supports Taiwan militarily

I can agree with most of what you say. But my post had nothing to do with assessing the value of gun control, or balanced budgets, or the rectitude of any given position on abortion. I was showing ShadowX, that the litmus tests he was placing on Pro_Line_FL, to say that he was not even an INDEPENDENT, for God's sakes, if he didn't agree with at least some, specific, hard-line Conservative policies which ShadowX supports, but which are not even universal positions among REPUBLICANS, were a faulty basis for judgement, on the matter. An "Independent," need not subscribe to hard line policies of the Left, or Right.

From my experience with Pro_Line, I would definitely accept his own categorization of himself, as an Independent. On some issues, he is in agreement with the Left, with others, he seems on the Right, though generally not an extremist, in either direction. Often, he seems to fall in the "moderate" part of the spectrum, wherein dwell both Democrats, and Republicans, as I had tried to point out.


P.S.-- Thanks for the complementary words of support. It was kind of you to say them.

 

Provide ONE example of trump complaining about putting sanctions on Russia.
Don’t worry I’ll wait.

 

Lol at all of you being obtuse. I can’t believe I have to explain this but that’s fine I’ll do so since you all want to pretend to be obtuse.

Political ideology (or any ideology for that matter) is not a system of perfect labels, it is a spectrum. On one extreme end you have liberals and on the other extreme you have conservative. Very few if any people hold 100% conservative or 100% liberal views. That fact makes the VAST majority of people not 100% conservative or liberal but it also doesn’t mean they’re independent.

Let’s assume the line was from -100 for liberal and +100 for conservative. The independent would fall somewhere around the -10 to +10 mark. This is true for EVERY position within said ideologies.

Meaning if we talk about abortion and a -100 is the extreme liberal position of 100% allowed abortions up until the moment of birth and the extreme conservative position is 100% not allowed abortions in any case even rape. Does that mean in order to be conservative you have to believe in 0 abortion and if you’re liberal you have to believe in 100% abortions? Of course not. It means that the closer on that line to -100 you are, the more liberal your position is. The closer to +100 on that line, the more conservative your position is.

The same is true with firearms. -100 equates to no firearms whatsoever. +100 equates to any firearm you want. The closer you are to +100 the more conservative your position on firearms is.

But to what we are discussing being at -40 doesn’t make you independent. It makes you liberal. Being at +30 doesn’t make you independent, it makes you conservative. There are a relatively small number of people who would fall between that -10 to +10 on most issues which is what would be required to identify as an ACTUAL independent and not lean one way or the other.

 

And you’re wrong. He leans liberal. As evidenced by 90% of his posts here. Go look at his history. It’s GROSSLY disproportionate in favor of liberals and liberal ideology. Now are there a few places where he takes a more conservative approach? Sure but he CLEARLY leans left. That does NOT make him an independent. That makes him a liberal with a few conservative positions who wants to pretend to be labeled as an independent so he doesn’t get lumped in with the crazy liberals. But that’s not how this works.

He can say he’s an independent until he turns purple in the face. But I’m more concerned with his actions (his posts) than just his claims. When the VAST majority of your posts are made in support of liberals and liberalism while you bash conservatives, your actions show you to be liberal no matter what your claim may be.

I don’t have to prove it. Go look at his posts. They prove it for me.

 

And just for your edification, did I say those were the requirements? No I was trying to determine where he was at on the spectrum I was just speaking of by asking him about some more extreme positions.

 

So, what is -40 and +30 in the issue of abortion?

It was implied a person cannot be independent unless they want to charge a woman with murder for having an abortion. If that's not +100, then what is?

Its far more simple that that:
- Pro-life is conservative stance
- Pro-choice is liberal stance
- Charging with murder is an extremist RWNJ stance, which very few support

 

Well you prove my point, as well as show where your own mistake lies. The most popular voter designation is not Republican; it is not Democrat; it is INDEPENDENT. Therefore, your considering the Democrats & Republicans to each own 90 points, of the 200 point scale, you postulate, only leaving a 1/10th sliver of 20 pts., in the almost exact "center," for Independents, is absurd. At the very minimum, The "Independent" middle, the way you are doing it, should encompass 70 points. Therefore, "liberal," would range from -100 to -34.9, Independent from -35 to +35, and " conservative, from 35.1 to 100. In practice, of course, there are people who would fall in that "Independent," range who, nevertheless are Democrats, or Republicans (at least traditionally- speaking). Likewise, there will be people whose views fall further toward either end, but who yet consider themselves Independents. They could certainly be on the Conservative end of the scale, and absolutely hate Trump. They could be on the Liberal end, & hate Biden & the Dems, in general.

Though my overall views would average out on the Liberal side, I have not been a partisan, in my Presidential choices, with the lion's share of my votes going to Independent candidates, both more Right- leaning (Perot) and more Left- leaning (Nader). Until just recently, then, I have considered myself Independent, because I saw the two- Party Duopoly as the problem, and was an advocate for a 3rd Party, in the U.S. The combination of the Republicans, IMO, going to hell in a hand basket, the Dems stepping up their game, Biden doing admirably well, and my determining that, at least for the foreseeable future, a third Party to rival the other two, is just a pipe dream, has only very recently, made me comfortable to call myself a Democrat. Even though I have long been a Liberal; still, I was an Independent Liberal. So the terms you are using are confusing. What I think you mean by "Independent," really, is "Centrist." But that center includes all 3 groups: Dems, Repubs, & Independents. And to be an Independent, or a Centrist, does not require that one adheres to any radically Right or Left, views. Nor does it preclude one from having "Conservative" views on some topics, and "Liberal," views on others.

To conclude my digression, I feel that @Pro_Line_FL is not a partisan, of either side. For what it's worth, I have seen him with views that have fallen well into either camp. He arrives at his views, however, on his own, not because it is the view of either camp.

 

You don't get it, because for you everything revolves around your political leaders and those who support them are in group A and those who don't are in group B. There is no middle ground, and you DESPARATLY try to divide everyone into two camps for "us and them".

However, to normal people it depends on VIEWS, not your political idols. If someone calls Trump an idiot, it says nothing about his/her views, it only means that person thinks Trump is an idiot, but for you it means that person is 'liberal'. This is why you'll never get it.

What issues are you talking about? Name them, and provide the posts to prove your claims. Lot of the things you support which you think are conservative because your political leader is pushing them are actually authoritarian. You don't think for yourself, you let your political leaders think for you and you assume its good because it came from your politician. You need to learn to question them.

What is your score in the political compass? Mine is in the libertarian / conservative corner close to the neutral line, and I suspect yours would be more towards the authoritarian corner. I vote for people like Ron Paul, and you vote for whoever your party tells you to vote for.

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.59

Correct. Its all about "us vs them" for him, and his example of independents being a very narrow sliver in the middle tends to prove it, because in his example out of a total of 200, only 20 (10%) are independent, which is a far cry from the reality.

The reality in US:
31% are Democrats,
25% are Republican,
41% are Independent.

 

I tend to agree with this. I guarantee he is more left of center than he wants to believe.

 

Okay let’s look at your position and use me as an example. You’ve spoken to me and read my posts enough to know what I’m like and where I fall on that spectrum.

Now I tell you I want to be considered independent or “centrist” because while the VAST majority of my views fall on the hyper conservative end of the spectrum, I do hold some beliefs that are considered more liberal in nature. I don’t like the military industrial complex, I don’t actually have a problem with abortion being legal other than the double standard way in which it is enforced and I believe strongly in social welfare for those who are incapable of providing for themselves.

Does that make me a centrist because I say so? Or does the overwhelming body of evidence that I’m conservative say otherwise?

 

There is no way you’re that far right. Me and you never agree on anything

 

Yea, sure, you too.

What issues are you referring to? Please name a few

 

- Abortion
- losing the petrodollar, you even got offended by my position on that calling it partisan

I am sure I can name some more but I would have to go through my history in conversation with you

I’m sure have disagreed on many free trade points as well. Like the use of the military to ensure trade is safely completed

 

You should have included the link for that test (though it was easy to find, with the name)-- the test was tough, but also fun! I was thinking that it wouldn't be accurate, but I think it did a pretty good job:

Some ideas should first be explained, to others.

[Snip]

About the Political Compass
The starting point of the (original) Political Compass was in 2001, when we recognised the inadequacies of the standard political measure:

It’s certainly fine for discussing economics but to this day is still widely — and wrongly — used to describe social attitudes. France’s National Front, for example, is popularly described as “far right”, yet its economic policies have sometimes been to the left of even the French Socialist Party. The party’s real extremism is in its social attitudes. That’s why we added a social scale.


Nevertheless, the more nationalistic and authoritarian a party or individual is, the more ‘right-wing’ they’re still labelled. This, of course, is absurd. Taken to its logical conclusion, it means that the further left a country sits, the more socially liberal its attitudes are. on that basis, North Korea must be a shining model of human rights and social freedoms!

Conversely, a country may be very right wing (ie libertarian) in its economics, and be authoritarian at the same time. Singapore is a perfect example.

The Index of Economic Freedom produced by the Wall Street Journal and the conservative Heritage Foundation, hails Singapore as the economically freest nation on Earth in 2021. On the social scale, however, it’s a very different story. Human Rights Watch details its reasons for finding Singapore a deeply authoritarian state.

Uruguay is currently rated the world’s 44 th most free economy, and a leading Latin American light in social freedoms — from gay and lesbian rights to legalisation of cannabis. Switzerland also has a high rating as a libertarian economy, while at the same time providing a wide range of social welfare programmes, in common with the Nordic states and a number of other western countries.
With the exception of its Hong Kong region, China maintains strong economic controls, though fewer than those assiciated with a more orthodox ruling ‘Communist’ party. In recent years China has shifted closer to the totally repressive social climate of North Korea, where the economy also is under the absolute control of the state. Saudi Arabia has veered futher towards a libertarian economy in recent times, but with no real relaxation of its sweeping authoritarian powers.

[End Snip]

Unfortunately, the graphs were not copied on my phone, which would have been helpful, seeing where on the graph, all those countries fell, all around the outer periphery. Maybe Pro_Line, you could retrieve it.

For my own plotting: on the horizontal, Economic axis, which uses the "Left/Right" terminology, I am slightly more than halfway from the Center towards the Left side. On the vertical, Social axis, which has Authoritarian at top, and Social Libertarian below, I am a little more than a third of the way down from the middle, towards Libertarian. So it says that I am a little bit more Economically "Left" than I am Socially Libertarian, which is the reverse of what I would have guessed.

Your Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69

From center to far fringe of any of the quality- parameters, is a 10 point scale.

Side Note, for @Joe knows and @ShadowX , the chart definitely puts Pro-Line, Economically, on the Right, though just a little closer to the Center, than to the far Right. And he is only barely, Socially, Liberal. Funny, with a bit more draw towards Authoritarianism, I imagine he would be a strong prospect, for a Trump supporter. If you two don't trust the results, why don't you take it, for yourselves?

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

There are 6, fairly to very short sections. I found the last couple, a breeze, but there were some really toughies, earlier on. I'd be curious to have us all compare.

I haven't taken it yet, but here's a different test, that would be interesting, I think, to compare with the political compass test.


https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/quiz/political-typology/

 

Please stop making sense! We are dealing with people who criticize Biden's actions for making things more expensive for US citizens, but then criticize his perceived inaction as cowardice when facing the possibility of nukes!

 

If you disagree, then you are pro-abortion aka liberal. I am pro-life.

LOL, that is not a political view, that is your personal speculation of a potential future event.

I'm all for free trade, but nowadays it is demonized and called "evil globalism".

Eh? Not sure what that means.

 

Now it’s not political but it was me being partisan earlier? And it is a political view just because someone hasn’t mentioned it that’s an elected official doesn’t mean I can’t have my view and separation from the current POTUS on his handling that’s causing it’s loss.

 

I actually do agree with you here. Globalism is not a bad thing and is correctly stated as free trade. However it’s not free trade when our goods are taxed at higher rates than the goods we import. What Trump was doing with China was a move that benefited us in that respect. As far as I know I don’t think Biden has reversed that yet either.

It does infuriate me how much of our American brands went to china though.

 

Its pretty accurate, and yes, fun too.

Not authoritarian. Authoritarian is the top, and I was below the line on the libertarian side, but close to the neutral line.

That one has only 16 question, so the compass is more detailed

My score:
Political Typology Quiz

Your best fit is…
Ambivalent Right
… along with 12% of the public

 

There are two sides of the coin in free tread like in practically every other issue, - even something as trivial as the "daylight saving light bill" has positive and negative aspects to it

 

I’m pretty sure we’ve debated on this in the past. An example is how Reagan allowed Kuwait to sail their oil tankers under our flag and even had our ships near by to ensure safe travels. Another would be the reasoning behind losing the petrodollar. Saudi and the UAE’s concern over reviving a nuclear deal and they’re diminishing support for weapons in their interests in Yemen. Our influence in the Middle East has always been a pathway for cheaper energy and ensuring the demand of our dollar.

 

Not sure what you are referring to here.

I mean there is no liberal or conservative view point to something like that. Petrodollar is what it is, and whether Saudis sell oil in Yuan remains to be seen. Its a guess about a future event.

Ok. I am not opposed to having US Navy defend ships which sail under US flag. I was also ok with US Navy kicking pirates butts around the Horn Of Africa, like the Captain Phillips operation in 2013.

 

Full- bore Authoritarian is at the top, but as soon as you cross the horizontal axis, you're in that territory, same as being either Right, or Left, of Center. It's only a matter of degree.

 

I think I need to retake it.

 

Well, I didn't cross the line, since I was on the Libertarian side of that line.