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How To Enact Comprehensive Immigration Reform

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Meta777, Jun 20, 2018.

Page 5 of 17
  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    A point?...

    The point is that our current immigration system is botched up.
    It is flawed to a degree that it completely fails to sufficiently meet the needs of anyone involved.
    People do not necessarily agree on how to fix things, but what most of us can agree on is that the current system isn't working.

    And its been that way for quite a while. We, the American citizens have for years relied on our politicians to come up with a comprehensive fix to the issue, and they have to this point failed to do so. I'm wondering if, in taking a closer look at things, we here at politicalforum can do any better.

    I'm wondering if we can take the following list of current immigration policies
    and compromise with one another to come up with an acceptable solution.
    Hope that explains it for you, 'cause I'm not sure I can make it any clearer.
    Adult Undocumented Illegal Immigrants Who Sneak In: Deported
    Visa Holders Who Overstay Their Visas: Punishment Dependent on Overage, Up To Permanent Ban from U.S. if Over a Year
    Infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Deported With Parent/(recent) Tender Age Shelter
    Non-infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Deported With Parent/(recent) Internment Camp
    Unaccompanied Undocumented Children Who Sneak In: Resettled in U.S./(recent) Internment Camp
    Dreamers (Brought as kids who lived in U.S. for many years): N/A
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Work Visa for Seasonal Work: H1B Lottery 85K Annually (Up to 6 year Av. wait)
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Student Visa for Education: F1, J1, M1 Visa Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Merit-based Visa for Exceptional Talent: EB1 and EB2 Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Financial Investment: EB5, minimum $500k
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Lottery System: 50k Green Cards Annually
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Military Service: 12 years of Service
    Family Members of Immigrants in Military Service: Expedited Green Card for Children or Spouse Only
    Family Members of Legal Immigrants in General: Spouses, Young Unmarried Children, and Parents
    Family Members of Permanent U.S. Citizens: Max 480K Annually: Spouses, Young Children, Parents + Siblings and Older Children
    Legal Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Proof of Persecution or Threat of Death in Home Country (Max 26-70K Annually)
    /(recent) Turned Away or Deported
    Immigrants who Haven't Yet Assimilated the English Language: N/A
    Immigrants with Non-violent Non-drug-related Offenses: If Serious (1 year jail time) or a Felony, then Deported
    Immigrants with Non-violent Drug-related Offenses: Deported
    Immigrants with Violent Offenses: Deported
    Employers of Undocumented Immigrants: $250-$2,000 Fine Per Undocumented Employee For First Offense
    Smugglers of Undocumented Immigrants: Fine + Up to 10 Years (or 20 if anyone is injured) Jail Per Smuggled Person
    Visa Application and Petitioning Process: 1-4 Years Av For Employment Based, 1-10 Years For Non-Immediate Family
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement: 20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually
    Funding for Immigration Reforms: N/A
    Border Security: 353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents
    Other: ???    ​

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 24, 2018
    #101
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Also, it isn't a short, simple issue.
     
    WillReadmore, Jun 24, 2018
    #102
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  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Now there's a novel idea...the non-trebuchet-related one I mean, Lol!

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 25, 2018
    #103
  4. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I have questions about it.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 25, 2018
    #104
  5. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Go on then . . . ask away!
     
    cerberus, Jun 25, 2018
    #105
  6. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    When you say "turn them back at the border", do you mean all of them? Including legal asylum seekers and children?

    And what, if anything, would you have us do about immigrants who are already in the country?
    e.g. Those who've already managed to successfully sneak in, or the dreamers who've been here for years, or immigrants with expired visas etc. etc....should we just deport them all?

    And should there be, in your opinion, any mechanisms for immigrants to enter the country legally at all?
    Or should we simply cancel all the current visa programs?

    I assume that "turning them back" implies that we shouldn't send them through a formal deportation process... I assume it means that if we catch them at or near the border, that we just drop them right off on the other side of that same border. Is that an accurate assumption?

    Additionally, how would your proposal look if applied to the following table to replace current policies?
    Adult Undocumented Illegal Immigrants Who Sneak In: Deported
    Visa Holders Who Overstay Their Visas: Punishment Dependent on Overage, Up To Permanent Ban from U.S. if Over a Year
    Infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Deported With Parent/(recent) Tender Age Shelter
    Non-infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Deported With Parent/(recent) Internment Camp
    Unaccompanied Undocumented Children Who Sneak In: Resettled in U.S./(recent) Internment Camp
    Dreamers (Brought as kids who lived in U.S. for many years): N/A
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Work Visa for Seasonal Work: H1B Lottery 85K Annually (Up to 6 year Av. wait)
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Student Visa for Education: F1, J1, M1 Visa Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Merit-based Visa for Exceptional Talent: EB1 and EB2 Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Financial Investment: EB5, minimum $500k
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Lottery System: 50k Green Cards Annually
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Military Service: 12 years of Service
    Family Members of Immigrants in Military Service: Expedited Green Card for Children or Spouse Only
    Family Members of Legal Immigrants in General: Spouses, Young Unmarried Children, and Parents
    Family Members of Permanent U.S. Citizens: Max 480K Annually: Spouses, Young Children, Parents + Siblings and Older Children
    Legal Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Proof of Persecution or Threat of Death in Home Country (Max 26-70K Annually)
    /(recent) Turned Away or Deported
    Immigrants who Haven't Yet Assimilated the English Language: N/A
    Immigrants with Non-violent Non-drug-related Offenses: If Serious (1 year jail time) or a Felony, then Deported
    Immigrants with Non-violent Drug-related Offenses: Deported
    Immigrants with Violent Offenses: Deported
    Employers of Undocumented Immigrants: $250-$2,000 Fine Per Undocumented Employee For First Offense
    Smugglers of Undocumented Immigrants: Fine + Up to 10 Years (or 20 if anyone is injured) Jail Per Smuggled Person
    Visa Application and Petitioning Process: 1-4 Years Av For Employment Based, 1-10 Years For Non-Immediate Family
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement: 20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually
    Funding for Immigration Reforms: N/A
    Border Security: 353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents
    Other: ???    ​

    Would/should there be any changes to border security, funding, punishments to smugglers or employers of undocumented immigrants?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 25, 2018
    #106
  7. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm beginning to see why it's in such an unholy mess! Anyhoo, here's the answer to it: It should be made widely known in South American countries that there is a strict immigration policy into NA, and that from now on, just turning up won't cut it. Applications should be made in writing, and the processing should begin there - no ifs or buts, just make it known that if anyone does just turn up at the border - with or without kids - they'll be turned back whence they came.

    As to those who are already there: If they're working, or otherwise leading a 'good life', then leave them alone. Any convictions for acts of criminal activity should be met with instant repatriation - no prison, no appeals procedure, just straight out of the country to the one they came from.

    As to catching them just inside the border then yes, escort them to their own side of it and send them on their way - what's wrong with that? [​IMG]

    All of that should have been done in the first place, but since it wasn't, now the chickens are coming home to roost for that lack of foresight.
     
    cerberus, Jun 25, 2018
    #107
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  8. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Yes

    The smart ass liberals are using asylum as a loophole to flood the country with poor people from Central America

    We have an embassy in mexico That they can give their asylum request to

    But merely being born in a crappy country is not enough to gain them entry into the US

    We need to take care of our own first
     
    Mac-7, Jun 25, 2018
    #108
  9. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Correct

    There is a loophole in the law that makes the children Get Out Of Jail Free cards for the adults

    What liberals want is catch and release and that is not working
     
    Mac-7, Jun 25, 2018
    #109
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  10. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    It begins with building the wall and stopping the revolving door of illegal criminals who are deported 15 times till the day they kill someone

    Then end the refugee program

    After that end chain immigration

    Allow in only people with usefull skills and their wife and children

    No parents, aunts, uncles ect

    End the visa lottery

    And most of all end birthright citizenship for the children of tourists and illegal aliens
     
    Mac-7, Jun 25, 2018
    #110
  11. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Lot's of unique ideas here. I think I got them all into table.

    Assuming that visa overstays (as well as visa holders with lawfully up to date status, and immigrants within the country in general) would all be allowed that same 15 year path to citizenship. Didn't add the part about voting, because its already current law that only citizens are allowed to vote.

    What's your stance on legal asylum seekers though? Should they also get the 15 year path to citizenship deal? What if they come after the 3 month window? Should they be let into the country at all?

    Also, the 3 month window may present an unforeseen potential issue. What happens if there are people who are encouraged to try and sneak into the country within that window? Unless they're caught in the act of entering, how would we even know when they got here? Also also, do you think that in order to prevent this as much as possible, we should make any changes to border security or any other portion of the blue section?

    (Changes Highlighted In Bright Red)
    Adult Undocumented Illegal Immigrants Who Sneak In: 15 Year Path to Citizenship if Registered within 3 months of enactment
    Visa Holders Who Overstay Their Visas: 15 Year Path to Citizenship if Registered within 3 months of enactment
    Infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: DNA Testing + 15 Yr Path to Citizenship if Reg within 3 months of enactment
    Non-infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: DNA Testing + 15 Yr Path to Citizenship if Reg within 3 months of enactment
    Unaccompanied Undocumented Children Who Sneak In: 15 Year Path to Citizenship if Registered within 3 months of enactment
    Dreamers (Brought as kids who lived in U.S. for many years): 15 Year Path to Citizenship if Registered within 3 months of enactment
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Work Visa for Seasonal Work: H1B Lottery 85K Annually (Up to 6 year Av. wait)
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Student Visa for Education: F1, J1, M1 Visa Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Merit-based Visa for Exceptional Talent: EB1 and EB2 Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Financial Investment: EB5, minimum $500k
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Lottery System: 50k Green Cards Annually
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Military Service: 12 years of Service
    Family Members of Immigrants in Military Service: Expedited Green Card for Children or Spouse Only
    Family Members of Legal Immigrants in General: Spouses, Young Unmarried Children, and Parents
    Family Members of Permanent U.S. Citizens: Max 480K Annually: Spouses, Young Children, Parents + Siblings and Older Children
    Legal Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Proof of Persecution or Threat of Death in Home Country (Max 26-70K Annually)
    /(recent) Turned Away or Deported
    Immigrants who Haven't Yet Assimilated the English Language: N/A
    Immigrants with Non-violent Non-drug-related Offenses: If Serious (1 year jail time) or a Felony, then Deported
    Immigrants with Non-violent Drug-related Offenses: Deported
    Immigrants with Violent Offenses: Deported
    Employers of Undocumented Immigrants: $250-$2,000 Fine Per Undocumented Employee For First Offense
    Smugglers of Undocumented Immigrants: Fine + Up to 10 Years (or 20 if anyone is injured) Jail Per Smuggled Person
    Visa Application and Petitioning Process: 1-4 Years Av For Employment Based, 1-10 Years For Non-Immediate Family
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement: 20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually
    Funding for Immigration Reforms: N/A
    Border Security: 353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents
    Other1: Do a Deal w/ Mexico to Create Emergency Shelters for Immigrants. Half in Mexico Half in U.S.
    Other2: Streamline legal process to more quickly reject immigrants who aren't proper asylum seekers
    Other3: End Sanctuary Cities
    Other4: Put More Pressure on Mexico to Accept Immigrants Rather than Passing Along to U.S. Border
    Other5: Provide Financial and Other Aid to Mexico to Help them Improve their Country    ​

    As another poster already pointed out, no one can speak at all when they're born, let-alone speak fluent English read and or write.
    So I think that rule would need to have much more clarification. What would be the specific change to the wording of the constitution?

    Lol, while possibly fun to watch, how exactly would that help?

    We do have the F1, J1, and M1 Visa programs. Are you suggesting that these programs need to be expanded?
    Tbh, I'm not really familiar on the details of how those educational Visa programs work, or what the current caps are.
    If anyone has additional information on those, it'd be appreciated. :)

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 25, 2018
    #111
  12. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    You might try starting with the 2013 bill that passed the Senate and work from there?
    It addressed a lot of areas that need addressing to move forward.
     
    ronv, Jun 25, 2018
    #112
  13. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    ronv, Jun 25, 2018
    #113
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  14. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    A good reason for why we need a comprehensive fix here, with all those considerations being addressed in the same bill...at least for this particular set of issues. All the different parts are very interwoven, each being somewhat reliant/dependent on or affected by the others in some way. Best to tackle them all at once rather than attempting to pass a bill for some of them, and trying to handle the rest latter. And the fact that handling them all at once is the best way and because there are so many is also why this is a tougher issue than most.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 25, 2018
    #114
  15. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Open borders?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 26, 2018
    #115
  16. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Hmm, given our current laws and policies, how do the systems in those other countries differ from ours, and, more specifically, how might we effectivly take cues from those other countries to change our system for the better?

    Below...the current set of U.S. policies, more or less...
    Adult Undocumented Illegal Immigrants Who Sneak In: Deported
    Visa Holders Who Overstay Their Visas: Punishment Dependent on Overage, Up To Permanent Ban from U.S. if Over a Year
    Infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Deported With Parent/(recent) Tender Age Shelter
    Non-infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Deported With Parent/(recent) Internment Camp
    Unaccompanied Undocumented Children Who Sneak In: Resettled in U.S./(recent) Internment Camp
    Dreamers (Brought as kids who lived in U.S. for many years): N/A
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Work Visa for Seasonal Work: H1B Lottery 85K Annually (Up to 6 year Av. wait)
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Student Visa for Education: F1, J1, M1 Visa Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Merit-based Visa for Exceptional Talent: EB1 and EB2 Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Financial Investment: EB5, minimum $500k
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Lottery System: 50k Green Cards Annually
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Military Service: 12 years of Service
    Family Members of Immigrants in Military Service: Expedited Green Card for Children or Spouse Only
    Family Members of Legal Immigrants in General: Spouses, Young Unmarried Children, and Parents
    Family Members of Permanent U.S. Citizens: Max 480K Annually: Spouses, Young Children, Parents + Siblings and Older Children
    Legal Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Proof of Persecution or Threat of Death in Home Country (Max 26-70K Annually)
    /(recent) Turned Away Deported or Internment Camp
    Immigrants who Haven't Yet Assimilated the English Language: N/A
    Immigrants with Non-violent Non-drug-related Offenses: If Serious (1 year jail time) or a Felony, then Deported
    Immigrants with Non-violent Drug-related Offenses: Deported
    Immigrants with Violent Offenses: Deported
    Employers of Undocumented Immigrants: $250-$2,000 Fine Per Undocumented Employee For First Offense
    Smugglers of Undocumented Immigrants: Fine + Up to 10 Years (or 20 if anyone is injured) Jail Per Smuggled Person
    Visa Application and Petitioning Process: 1-4 Years Av For Employment Based, 1-10 Years For Non-Immediate Family
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement: 20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually
    Funding for Immigration Reforms: N/A
    Border Security: 353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents
    Other: ???    ​

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 26, 2018
    #116
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  17. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that we can't even agree on this. Why isn't the current system not working? What exactly do people want? From my perspective, half the country are listening to the idiots on TV complain about how we even have borders, while the other half seems to be saying to bolt the border hatches, and dive! Anybody in the country who shouldn't be here gets keelhauled and left for sharkbait.

    I'm firmly in the latter camp. We don't need nary a one of them in the country, and that includes quite a few that are here legally.
     
    Belch, Jun 26, 2018
    #117
  18. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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    I will answer your post in a bit Meta777 I need a bit of time to formulate a proper response as I wrote that off the cuff lol.

    But one thing I think looking at the first post
    Military personnel (Non citizens) who find themselves in a combat situation for the US should be automatically awarded citizenship, it seems you should be rewarded for such loyalty.
     
    Liberty Monkey, Jun 26, 2018
    #118
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  19. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    And just why are foreigners serving in our military?
     
    Belch, Jun 26, 2018
    #119
  20. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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    Probably because they can't get enough Americans to go abroad to get shot at lol. There could be many reasons why it's good to have some foreigners serving and diversity in the military is essential. We got caught out in 2001 with our pants down because of this lack of diversity.

    Diversity isn't just race.
     
    Liberty Monkey, Jun 26, 2018
    #120
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  21. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Obviously the idiots in the military don't have a firm understanding of what happened to Rome when Alaric decided to bring his visigoths "home".
     
    Belch, Jun 26, 2018
    #121
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I haven't really seen anyone running around saying that they like the current immigration system.
    Most people seem to agree that the current immigration system is in shambles.

    Too many reasons to list.

    This is a great question, and its exactly what we're here to find out. :D

    Actually, from what you were saying earlier in the thread, your stated positions struck me as fairly centrist. Perhaps quite a bit more towards the anti-immigrant side of things than most other centrists, but there are certainly people out there with much more extreme views than yours. Don't let yourself get fooled into the notion that there are just two and only two potential positions one can take here. This thread itself and the responses along with it are a testament to the contrary.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 26, 2018
    #122
  23. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Centrist as in wanting a border/country, perhaps.

    I applaud what you're trying to do, but your basic question can be taken to mean two things. What does immigration reform mean to me, as opposed to a lefty? They want to get rid of the borders, and a huge welfare state to support their favorite sons from south of what should be a border.

    I want them closed and the only visas issued will be to people with a ticket back home, and only for a few weeks (can't see all of disneyland in just one day).

    hence my question. What do people mean when they think of immigration reform? I think if you leave that open for interpretation, you're not going to get anywhere.
     
    Belch, Jun 26, 2018
    #123
  24. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    No prob. It's cool. :cool: Take your time.

    Hmm, not sure if I agree that it should be instant, but yeah...12 years does seem like a lot.

    A couple other posters (Polydectes...and someone else I thought) actually suggested something like 4 years in the military should grant certain types of immigrants citizenship. But you know...I forgot to ask 'em if that should apply to every immigrant, or just the ones specified. Either way, maybe that, 4 years, is a better number...

    ...on the other hand... being in a combat situation, actively risking your life, is actually quite different than just being in the military. Perhaps certain situations should grant a more expedited citizenship.... Hmm, I'll have to think about this one more myself...

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 26, 2018
    #124
  25. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    For now I just want everyone to answer the question as it relates to how they feel, individually. So what does immigration reform mean to them. Or to you. And so on. Not what it means to others, or some group, or anyone other than yourself. But what it means to you personally. Obviously it will be different for everyone, and that's perfectly OK. We should just continue focusing on clearly stating our individual positions for the time being, and once we have a good understanding of where the starting positions are, it'll be much easier then to find the areas of compromise.

    And BTW, I do believe that everyone should be allowed to state their own positions. No need to try and put everyone into a box. Like I was saying before, there are far more than just two positions to take on this issue.

    I don't think so. Actually I'd say some good progress has already been made here.
    But that said, if you were to set up a thread like this, how would you do things differently?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 26, 2018
    #125
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