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How To Enact Comprehensive Immigration Reform

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Meta777, Jun 20, 2018.

Page 4 of 17
  1. Russell Hellein

    Russell Hellein Well-Known Member

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    Since Reagan there has been one law after another passed against immigration. None work and none will. Its a 3000 mile boarder which is impossible to man even if we built a wall - which we won't. If they built a wall, probably with Mexican labor, people will use a shovel to dig under it.

    People need to get real about immigration. For all the anger nothing is going to change.
     
    Russell Hellein, Jun 22, 2018
    #76
  2. Wehrwolfen

    Wehrwolfen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Perhaps they should be processed quickly, brought to the border and released back into Mexico and let them go home the same manner they came through Mexico if they are not Mexican. There are presently laws that have been written by both Democrats and Republicans. They are being ignored solely by the Progressive Democratic Left and exacerbated by the propagandist Fifth Columnist media.
    However, pondering the solution is no different than a conspiracy theory and not news nor politically astute.
     
    Wehrwolfen, Jun 23, 2018
    #77
  3. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Just realized that there is a mistake in the statement above.

    Green card holders don't have visas, they have green cards which grants legal residency status. If I recall correctly Green Cards expire if not renewed and they would automatically lose their residency status. However they can apply for citizenship after 5 years of permanent legal residency with their Green Card.

    I think that this item needs to be changed to Visa Holders who Overstay their Visas.
     
    Derideo_Te, Jun 23, 2018
    #78
  4. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, Green cards are a type of Visa. But its a more long term/permanent version of what people usually refer to when they use the term Visa. Usually, the term Visa is used when referring to a Temporary Work or Education pass. And Green card is how people refer to the type of pass that let's immigrants stay for years and years as long as they renew it. They are both types of Visas though, so that can cause confusion.

    http://www.usaza.com/VisaTypes.htm

    But you're still right, I shouldn't use the term Green card there since, while it is a Visa, its certainly not the only type that can expire or be overstayed...I don't even think its the main one that leads to issues like that. So I should change that wording to what you suggested. Good catch!

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 23, 2018
    #79
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  5. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I would go one step further, and say that most of the problems here are due to misperceptions. The first misperception is that the issue is simple and or uncomplicated. That one mispercerception alone leads to a bunch of others...folks get the wrong idea about one thing because they aren't aware that there are all these other facets out there that need to be considered. Additionally, with the number of different facets there are, its easy for a person not to be up to date on what our country's current policies are on every one, which is a useful thing to know when thinking about what exactly needs to change. That's why I'm trying to gather everything together in one place here. For a truly comprehensive approach, we'll need to cover everything.

    True that!

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 23, 2018
    #80
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  6. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    The difference is temporary versus permanent residence from what I have gathered. Another difference is that with a regular visa it is stamped in the passport of the individual whereas the Green Card is a separate physical document similar to a drivers license.

    Thanks for the link. I had no idea there were that many different kinds out there. :)
     
    Derideo_Te, Jun 23, 2018
    #81
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  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I think there is some good stuff here, but a few thoughts:
    Senator Rubio has been quoted a number of times stating that most of those without documentation in the US right now would not even attempt a path to citizenship, as the time period is long, the documentation that would be required is significant and (most importantly) they came here to work. He said that in conjunction with the bi-partisan immigration reform bill championed by him, McCain and others during the Obama administration. That bill passed the senate and would have passed the house if Boehner had allowed it to come to a vote.
    Well, babies can't speak at all. I don't believe babies should be considered non-citizens until such time as they can pass a citizenship test.
    That will happen immediately after a policy that is acceptable to the cities. That's not some sort of difficult bar.
    We need their labor. So, somehow your definition of "merit" needs to include those who know how to clean, pick, run a chicken lung remover, etc.
    Amen. Our deportation process turns kids over to agencies in other countries. There are hints that some of those agencies are privately operated and may be trafficking the kids we deport. We need to make sure that's not happening.
     
    WillReadmore, Jun 23, 2018
    #82
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  8. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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    Merit comes in many forms, there's more merit in the guy that unblocks the toilet than 99.9% of life coaches lol. Manual labour is just part of the puzzle but at the moment it's the only part.

    Not suprised Californian elites are pushing hard for it who owns the farms taking advantage of the labour? Who's getting rich off this? It's the very people fighting to keep these people in what is essentially slavery and then call the right racists to try and scare us away from their dirty little secret.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
    Liberty Monkey, Jun 23, 2018
    #83
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    As you point out, keeping that labor illegal is great for large numbers of businesses.

    They can pay less, be totally irresponsible concerning benefits, working conditions, etc., and when they aren't happy with some worker or the worker gets sick, they can dump them to ICE or just tell them to leave the premises. Plus, no citizen worker can compete with that.

    We need to end underground labor. But, we also need to be careful about industries where increased labor prices would essentially end the industry.
     
    WillReadmore, Jun 23, 2018
    #84
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  10. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    That's all true, but even so, the rules, policies, and procedures regarding border security and entry into the country are there in part to protect the American citizen. We can't just let anyone and everyone come in all willy-nilly, right? And if we set up rules for how one should enter the country, and those rules are ignored, then that creates a problem in itself.

    That said, I don't buy into all the talk about a significant number of those immigrants being MS-13 gang members or whatever...that's just silliness. Nor do I believe that all the immigrants trying to make it across the border now are necessarily breaking the rules. From what I hear, a lot of the families coming over are attempting to seek asylum lawfully through the established procedures. And they are being jailed, split-up, and or deported for their trouble, all without the usual due process of actually verifying whether or not their asylum claims are legitimate.

    So yeah, a lot of immigrants may be good-natured hardworking and honest people attempting to do things by the book, but the few immigrants who try to sneak into the country or do things outside of the rules are sort of ruining things for everyone else. Though I've never been one who liked to see a group be punished as a whole for the actions of a few...at the same time I don't think concerns about who enters, how, when, and under what conditions should be overlooked.

    That's why I think its super important for us to really think carefully about this so that we can get it right. Its going to be a bit of a balancing act.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 24, 2018
    #85
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  11. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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    Good post, I still think we need to DNA test at the border to ensure Children are travelling with parents. I think we need to streamline the process so we can ID and reject the 80% false asylum seekers quickly! This is why we have the problem at the border in the first place! If we could ID and deny that 80% within a few days then the economic migrants would stop coming pretty quickly. I think there should be a potential path for these people but not at the border, any path starts in their home country.

    If only true asylum seekers were using the border we would not have this problem, they've been abusing loopholes for years. When released into the US less than 3% were returning for their hearings.
     
    Liberty Monkey, Jun 24, 2018
    #86
  12. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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    I have also pondered if it would be a good idea to store the DNA of illegals in the police database say until they do become legal citizens.

    This would strongly discourage crime BUT I find the idea very uncomfortable and at odds with my personal beliefs in Liberty.
     
    Liberty Monkey, Jun 24, 2018
    #87
  13. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    You are correct that it is a balancing act. Yes, there will always be criminals in the mix because there always have been and always will be. Penalizing everyone because of a handful of criminals is a regressive concept that should have no influence on the actual immigration policy itself.

    People can and do come here legally. They also come here illegally. Our policies need to address both types of immigrants and since they all fall under our jurisdiction and constitution once they are on US soil they need to be treated humanely and not have their rights violated as is currently happening.

    In essence it is the current administration that is ruining immigration for existing citizens by turning what would be productive tax paying immigrants into criminals that become a burden on tax payers instead. A study commissioned by the current administration proved that immigrants contribute $65 billion to our economy. We need to reverse this punitive process by acknowledging the REALITY of immigration and putting in place the proper means of integrating them into society in a legal manner.

    There is an expression that goes along the lines that if you pay peanuts only simians will apply for the job. We can afford to pay living wages in this nation so there is no justification for exploiting the labor of anyone regardless of their legal status. Corporations that are getting away with this kind of exploitation should not be in business. There is even a case to be made that what they are doing is criminal.

    Comprehensive immigration reform goes much deeper into how we as a society value the contributions made by the average worker. Unless we are prepared to grant everyone who works 8 hours a day a living wage we are going to continue to foster a need for illegal immigrants who are willing to work for a pittance.
     
    Derideo_Te, Jun 24, 2018
    #88
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  14. Wehrwolfen

    Wehrwolfen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First when you state, "the few immigrants who try to sneak into the country or do things outside of the rules are sort of ruining things for everyone else". You're trying to minimize the problem. when statistics show that more than 15 to 20 million illegals have crossed the borders of the U.S. how can you attempt to trivialize the matter by claiming it's just a few.
    If these people are seeking asylum, why aren't they remaining in Mexico rather than traveling nearly 1,000 miles?
    One has to consider the Constitution, the laws that have been constructed based upon that document and what are the politics involved. The wall is necessary and so are enforcing the laws created regulating the entrance of these people.
    Your discussion has no validity unless first we all follow the rule law. Violations of the law have consequences, whether it's the first Amendment to the Constitution or the Twenty-seventh Amendment along with all the laws passed by the Congress elected by the People.
    I suggest you read the following:
    CHAPTER 2: THE SOURCE AND SCOPE OF THE FEDERAL POWER TO REGULATE IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION
    http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/immigrationlaw/chapter2.html
    § 2-1 THE SOURCE OF THE FEDERAL POWER
    Throughout the history of the United States the Supreme Court has upheld all manner of federal statutes regulating immigration.
     
    Wehrwolfen, Jun 24, 2018
    #89
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  15. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Even if its not quite as big a deal as some people make it out to be, I still think we ought to come together to implement some long term comprehensive solution to it once and for all. That way, this issue will stop coming back up whenever something or another goes south, if we implement a really good solution/compromise that a significant number of us can agree to, then we wont have to worry about it so much in the future. We can focus more instead on the other important issues facing us (there's a long list of them).

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 24, 2018
    #90
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  16. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trump tweeted 3 hours ago his new ideas on immigration control

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1010900865602019329
     
    alexa, Jun 24, 2018
    #91
  17. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I think its a two-way street. One influences the other. Together they form a vicious cycle.
    We need to actively do what we can to disrupt that cycle.

    Speaking in general, systemic changes are typically the easiest way to fix such issues, assuming we can agree to implementing them.
    Whatever the case though, simply giving up on trying to improve things is out of the question.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 24, 2018
    #92
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  18. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    Say what you will, a collective effort in support of ANY proposal by a populace with near universal agreement would FORCE Congress to take action. . . . Our division is the ONLY impediment to the full expression of the latent power of our democracy.
     
    thinkitout, Jun 24, 2018
    #93
  19. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    So given that, what changes would you make to the current immigration setup?
    What would be your ideal?...

    Something like this perhaps? (Changes highlighted in Bright Red):
    Adult Undocumented Illegal Immigrants Who Sneak In: Path to Citizenship
    Visa Holders Who Overstay Their Visas: Path to Citizenship
    Infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Path to Citizenship
    Non-infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Path to Citizenship
    Unaccompanied Undocumented Children Who Sneak In: Path to Citizenship
    Dreamers (Brought as kids who lived in U.S. for many years): Path to Citizenship
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Work Visa for Seasonal Work: H1B Lottery 85K Annually (Up to 6 year Av. wait)
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Student Visa for Education: F1, J1, M1 Visa Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Merit-based Visa for Exceptional Talent: EB1 and EB2 Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Financial Investment: EB5, minimum $500k
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Lottery System: 50k Green Cards Annually
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Military Service: 12 years of Service
    Family Members of Immigrants in Military Service: Expedited Green Card for Children or Spouse Only
    Family Members of Legal Immigrants in General: Spouses, Young Unmarried Children, and Parents
    Family Members of Permanent U.S. Citizens: Max 480K Annually: Spouses, Young Children, Parents + Siblings and Older Children
    Legal Asylum Seekers/Refugees:     Path to Citizenship
    Immigrants who Haven't Yet Assimilated the English Language: N/A
    Immigrants with Non-violent Non-drug-related Offenses: If Serious (1 year jail time) or a Felony, then Deported
    Immigrants with Non-violent Drug-related Offenses: Deported
    Immigrants with Violent Offenses: Deported
    Employers of Undocumented Immigrants: $250-$2,000 Fine Per Undocumented Employee For First Offense
    Smugglers of Undocumented Immigrants: Fine + Up to 10 Years (or 20 if anyone is injured) Jail Per Smuggled Person
    Visa Application and Petitioning Process: 1-4 Years Av For Employment Based, 1-10 Years For Non-Immediate Family
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement: 20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually
    Funding for Immigration Reforms: N/A
    Border Security: 353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents
    Other: ???    ​

    I assume you'd still be OK with deporting immigrants who commit serious crimes while here, right? Would you make any changes to the blue section? In particular, would you change anything about how we currently handle those who employ undocumented immigrants or those caught trying to illegally smuggle immigrants across the border to make a profit? And what are your thoughts on border security and how that should change?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 24, 2018
    #94
  20. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I am in favor of prominently deporting immigrants who commit serious crimes. . . . As for your other comment, it seems that the criteria for legal immigration all revolve around whether it would be to OUR advantage or whether it would be economically expedient for the sponsor.

    It's like selling seating space on the lifeboat of a sinking ship, or giving preferential treatment to privileged recipients regarding organ transplants. . . . In cases where limitations are imposed, it becomes a moral dilemma that invites exploitation.

    I think that in order to make any headway on immigration reform, we must first learn to respect those seeking to assimilate into our culture, and try to eliminate prejudice as much as possible. . . . A little empathy wouldn't hurt, either.
     
    thinkitout, Jun 24, 2018
    #95
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  21. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    All of them? Including legal asylum seekers and children? And what about immigrants already in the country? Those who successfully manage to sneak in, the dreamers, or immigrants with expired visas...should we just deport them all? And should any immigrants be allowed to enter the country at all? Or should we cancel all the current visa programs?

    Of course the system is messed up. Its been broken for a while now.
    But even the broader policy space itself has several gaps in it, which probably contributes to our inability to reduce backlogs.
    Just look at our current set of policies below and you can immediately see issues. The question is how we're going to fix it all.

    Adult Undocumented Illegal Immigrants Who Sneak In: Deported
    Visa Holders Who Overstay Their Visas: Punishment Dependent on Overage, Up To Permanent Ban from U.S. if Over a Year
    Infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Deported With Parent/(recent) Tender Age Shelter
    Non-infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Deported With Parent/(recent) Internment Camp
    Unaccompanied Undocumented Children Who Sneak In: Resettled in U.S./(recent) Internment Camp
    Dreamers (Brought as kids who lived in U.S. for many years): N/A
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Work Visa for Seasonal Work: H1B Lottery 85K Annually (Up to 6 year Av. wait)
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Student Visa for Education: F1, J1, M1 Visa Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Merit-based Visa for Exceptional Talent: EB1 and EB2 Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Financial Investment: EB5, minimum $500k
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Lottery System: 50k Green Cards Annually
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Military Service: 12 years of Service
    Family Members of Immigrants in Military Service: Expedited Green Card for Children or Spouse Only
    Family Members of Legal Immigrants in General: Spouses, Young Unmarried Children, and Parents
    Family Members of Permanent U.S. Citizens: Max 480K Annually: Spouses, Young Children, Parents + Siblings and Older Children
    Legal Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Proof of Persecution or Threat of Death in Home Country (Max 26-70K Annually)
    /(recent) Turned Away or Deported
    Immigrants who Haven't Yet Assimilated the English Language: N/A
    Immigrants with Non-violent Non-drug-related Offenses: If Serious (1 year jail time) or a Felony, then Deported
    Immigrants with Non-violent Drug-related Offenses: Deported
    Immigrants with Violent Offenses: Deported
    Employers of Undocumented Immigrants: $250-$2,000 Fine Per Undocumented Employee For First Offense
    Smugglers of Undocumented Immigrants: Fine + Up to 10 Years (or 20 if anyone is injured) Jail Per Smuggled Person
    Visa Application and Petitioning Process: 1-4 Years Av For Employment Based, 1-10 Years For Non-Immediate Family
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement: 20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually
    Funding for Immigration Reforms: N/A
    Border Security: 353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents
    Other: ???    ​

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 24, 2018
    #96
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Ah OK, thanks for the clarification, :D
    Oh, and it looks like I forgot to ask you about asylum seekers, but I assume your policy towards them would be the same; They should be let in, and offered a path to citizenship after 7 in country, right?
    Adult Undocumented Illegal Immigrants Who Sneak In: Path to Citizenship After 7 Years In Country w/o Criminal Record
    Visa Holders Who Overstay Their Visas: Path to Citizenship After 7 Years In Country w/o Criminal Record
    Infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Path to Citizenship After 7 Years In Country w/o Criminal Record
    Non-infant Children Who Immigrate Unlawfully with Parent: Path to Citizenship After 7 Years In Country w/o Criminal Record
    Unaccompanied Undocumented Children Who Sneak In: Path to Citizenship After 7 Years In Country w/o Criminal Record
    Dreamers (Brought as kids who lived in U.S. for many years): Path to Citizenship After 7 Years In Country w/o Criminal Record
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Work Visa for Seasonal Work: H1B Lottery 85K Annually (Up to 6 year Av. wait)
    Immigrants Seeking Temporary Student Visa for Education: F1, J1, M1 Visa Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Merit-based Visa for Exceptional Talent: EB1 and EB2 Programs
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Financial Investment: EB5, minimum $500k
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Lottery System: 50k Green Cards Annually
    Immigrants Seeking Permanent Visa Via Military Service: 12 years of Service
    Family Members of Immigrants in Military Service: Expedited Green Card for Children or Spouse Only
    Family Members of Legal Immigrants in General: Spouses, Young Unmarried Children, and Parents
    Family Members of Permanent U.S. Citizens: Max 480K Annually: Spouses, Young Children, Parents + Siblings and Older Children
    Legal Asylum Seekers/Refugees:     Path to Citizenship After 7 Years In Country w/o Criminal Record
    Immigrants who Haven't Yet Assimilated the English Language: N/A
    Immigrants with Non-violent Non-drug-related Offenses: If Serious (1 year jail time) or a Felony, then Deported
    Immigrants with Non-violent Drug-related Offenses: Deported
    Immigrants with Violent Offenses: Deported
    Employers of Undocumented Immigrants: $250-$2,000 Fine Per Undocumented Employee For First Offense
    Smugglers of Undocumented Immigrants: Fine + Up to 10 Years (or 20 if anyone is injured) Jail Per Smuggled Person
    Visa Application and Petitioning Process: 1-4 Years Av For Employment Based, 1-10 Years For Non-Immediate Family
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement: 20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually
    Funding for Immigration Reforms: N/A
    Border Security: 353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents
    Other: ???    ​

    Also, I think you raise a very interesting point.
    Would opening up the border lead to fewer immigrants trying to stay in the country long term?
    Would it lead to the Mexican economy improving? And would that in-turn lead to fewer immigrants trying to come here in the first place?
    ....questions for the ages.....hmmm.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 24, 2018
    #97
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    We need to make the solution comprehensive in the sense that the bi-partisan immigration reform bill that was created by the Senate committee that included Rubio, McCain and others.

    Being comprehensive allows for engineering a solution that is consistent and without holes, that addresses the range of US needs, humanitarian concerns, effectiveness, partisan batshitness, etc.

    I'm an advocate of the bi-partisan bill that that Senate committee created. It passed the Senate and would have passed the House had Boehner not blocked it.

    I don't like ever element, however any such bill is going to have to include concessions from the various constituencies.
     
    WillReadmore, Jun 24, 2018
    #98
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  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I suspect there are problems with our system for distributing these visas, etc.

    Today, the green card lottery system gives no credit for past years of application. So, each year the person must reapply and face the odds of the current year lottery.

    When the demand for visas vastly outstrips the visas available, it turns the visa system into a joke. This year, fewer than 0.5% of North American applicants to the green card lottery will be successful. Math test: How many years would someone have to plan on applying if they wanted to have a 50% chance of winning?

    I'm not saying that means we have to let a lot more in. I'm saying that when we create such policies, we need to consider whether applicants are going to see it as a sick joke and realize they have to find another way if they are at all serious.
     
    WillReadmore, Jun 24, 2018
    #99
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  25. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Really? I actually thought it was fairly short.
    ...compared to my other ones anyways...

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Jun 24, 2018
    #100
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