Surprisingly it is History and Archaeology, the Balfour declaration, the League of Nations, the Mandate, the United Nation and Israel 'Declaration of Independence'... - - - Updated - - - Yes we do occupy what is Historically ours!
Not true, this is below you, you always impressed me as knowledgeable! According to UNRWA calculations 400,000 Arabs left because the Armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and other small Arab contingents of other countries, demanded that the civilian Arabs <LEAVE FOR A SHORT TIME> not to be in the crossfire... But ALL these Arab armies were beaten back and their destruction dream of Israel never materialized!
sorry, but Plan Dalet details how and when the Zionist forces would force entire communities of Arabs across the border. they planned on committing ethnic cleansing and detailed their plans carefully. they used provocative measures to push the Arabs into resistance, and used their resistance as justification to push out whole populations of towns and villages. in fact if it wasn't for the bravery of a few Zionist officers who REFUSED to follow racist orders and commit ethnic cleansing of the Arab Triangle, there would have been barely any Arabs left in Israel in 1949 around 300,000 were forced out by Zionist forces in this manner.
Israel is not carrying out ethnic cleansing inside Israel, obviously. They are carrying it out in the nation of Palestine that they are occupying with military force and ruling under military law without representation of the people there. Israel does have citizens and even political leaders who recognize that these are crimes. You can't seriously think that all Israelis are fine with the concept of bulldozing the homes of civilians without justification other than not having papers certified by Israel, can you?? In fact, do YOU think that is OK??? Do YOU think Israel should have the right to roust West Bank civilians from their homes early in the morning and then bulldoze the homes with the belongings of the family still inside? I really have a problem thinking that an average man on the street in Israel would see that as acceptable. So help me our here.
Lol. You are having trouble here. 1/Israel can exist however it wishes. What you demand is that Palestinians recognize the Jewish character of the state when there is no need for that and it is unfair to the real Palestinains who have always been there. No one is stopping you declaring yourself whatever you wish. 2/ Terrorism is no more acceptable than ethnic cleansing and no less. I would happily support you shooting dead any Palestinian attacking you in Israel and I support Palestinians attacking settlers and IDF troops. That's fair and we can all agree with that.
Unlike many here I want there to be true peace because the participants desire it, not because they lost and want to get their stuff back so they can try again to use as an opportunity to regroup for another chance to destroy Israel. I note that you and many others continue to forget that the Palestinians declared war on Israel long prior to there ever being settlements and an occupation hence, if they wish things to be hunky dory they themselves without bribes must first declare their acceptance of Israel and declare that they do not have the right to the entire former mandate area. Then talks can begin.
Where are all these cleansed people? Did they ship them to another country or what for as far as I know the population of Palestine is growing pretty fast.
They are growing more concentrated in areas that Israel drives them to, obviously. Look at an Israeli map of West Bank. It's not like Israel hides their activity. Answer my question. Does the average man on the street in Israel see the bulldozing of the homes of Palestinian families as a legitimate act to be carried out by a military occupation force?
For a long time now and under harsh occupation, the leadership of West Bank has worked against violence and in favor of a permanent Israel along side a permanent Palestine. Your statement above is PURE sophistry. Israel already has a partner in non-violence in West Bank - the IDF states that. And, even the Hamas leadership of GAZA states Israel's right to permanence - even now, under a decade long continuous war against them by Israel. Beyond that, it is NETANYAHU that state there will never be a peaceful Israel beside Palestine, and that Palestine has no right of existence. In fact, his acts show that the people of Palestine don't even have a right to their own property.
The Charters and words of the Palestinian leaders still call for the violent destruction of Israel and claim the entire mandate area as theirs. No sophistry, no tricks, no beating around the bush, just plain facts.
Unfortunately, I wrote about it when I was a lot younger... I went looking for the document on another hard drive in an old computer. I was in school then and I could not invent side events... and for this main reason... it is a genuine document and in school I had to write things as they are! Arab Refugees... A plethora of evidence exists demonstrating that Palestinian Arabs were encouraged to leave their homes to make way for the invading Arab armies. Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri said, for example, declared: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down." [Myron Kaufman, “The Coming Destruction of Israel”, (NY: The American Library inc., 1970), pp. 26-27]. According to the Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah: "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could only be a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab states and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country. [Edward Atiyah, The Arabs, (London: PenguinBooks1955), p.183]. "The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return in a week or two," Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told a Beirut newspaper. "Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the Zionist gangs very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear for a long exile." [Sadaal-Janub (August16, 194 quotedinSamuelKatz, Battleground, pp.14-15] On April 3, 1949, the Near East Broadcasting Station (Cyprus) said: "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem. [Samuel Katz, Battleground, (NY: Bantam Books, 1985) p. 15]. A recurrent theme in statements made by Arab leaders was that military intervention was necessary to save the Arab population in Palestine from massacres perpetrated by the Zionists: "The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies." [Jordanian Newspaper Filastin, (February 19, 1949), quoted in Katz, p.16-17]. The Economist, a frequent critic of the Zionists, reported: "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit...It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades. [Economist, (October 2, 194]. Time's report of the battle for Haifa was similar: "The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa." [Time, (May 3, 194 p. 25]. Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts." [Benny Morris, "Operation Dani and the Palestinian Exodus from Lydda and Ramle in 1948," Middle Eastern Studies (January 1986), p. 16.] Morris also said that in early May units of the Arab Legion reportedly ordered the evacuation of all women and children from the town of Beisan. The Arab Liberation Army was also reported to have ordered the evacuation of another village south of Haifa. The departure of the women and children, Morris says, "tended to sap the morale of the men folk who were left behind to guard the homes and fields, contributing ultimately to the final evacuation of villages. Such two-tier evacuation - women and children first, the men following weeks later - occurred in Qumiya in the Jezreel Valley, among the Awarna Bedouin in Haifa Bay and in various other places." [Morris, January 1986), p. 16]. Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave: "Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return." [The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387]. "The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down." [Habib Issa in the New York Lebanese newspaper, Al Hoda, ( June 8, 1951), quoted in Katz, p. 17]. "The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in," one refugee said. "So we got out, but they did not get in." [Refugee quoted in Jordan newspaper. Ad Difaa, (September 6, 1954)]. The beginning of the Arab exodus can be traced to the weeks immediately following the announcement of the UN partition resolution. The first to leave were the wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends. "This practice of avoiding trouble was by no means a novelty in now ex Mandatory Palestine. During the fierce 1936-39 riots, some 40,000 upper class Arabs also left the country. [Joseph Schechtman, The Refugee in the World, (NY: A.S. Barnes and Co., 1963) p. 184]. All of those who left fully anticipated being able to return to their homes after an early Arab victory, as Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref explained in his history of war: "The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy." [Yehoshofat Harkabi, Arab Attitudes To Israel, (Jerusalem: Israel Universities Press, 1972), p. 369]. Even Jordan's King Abdullah blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem: "The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue. [King Abdullah, My Memoirs Completed, (London: Longman Group, Ltd., 197, p. xvi.] I supplied enough rare documentation... now the ball is in your ballpark!
Kidding right? So moving a person somewhere in the same place is now ethnic cleansing? So by your contention me telling my child to go to their bedroom at night is ethnic cleansing or, telling Israelis to move from settlements to Israel proper is also ethnic cleansing. Looks like they occupy land as any other military would do. It certainly wasn't ethnic cleansing when the US told Japanese civilians to move to other areas to set up their bases nor was it ethnic cleansing when the US, Britain, France and Russia told them to move so they could set up their military bases. Have no idea but the government of Israel and their military as well as the Geneva Convention believe it is an appropriate action to take to ensure law and order is maintained by denying the self declared enemy aid, comfort, tactical ground, logistics and storage areas as many of those homes were complicit in the storage, movement of missiles and munitions as well as command and control sites for terrorist activities.
No, this is pure sophistry. The document you mention is NOT IN AFFECT and has not been for a long, long time. This is purely YOU making excuses for what Israel is doing.
No, waking them up in the morning, bulldozing their homes and chasing the families away is ethnic cleansing. And, that's what is going on. No, occupation doesn't give you the right to steal people's property and give it to someone else. Your "set up bases" idea is more lies. Israel is simply stealing property, driving the owners away and then giving the land to Israelis. Defense??? More sophistry. Look at Israeli maps. The Wall is not being built for defense. You don't run walls up river bottom land and leave the high ground if what you are interested in is defense. You don't steal the property on the Jordon river, opposite Israel, and give it to Israeli civilians as a defensive maneuver against Palestinians. This "defense" argument is absolutely and totally unsupportable. The reason you even have a concern about "defense" is the very fact of the occupation. Israel thinks it is a democracy. But, they rule West Bank under Israeli military law, allowing the locals no participation. And, Netanyahu says that's the way it's going to stay - forever. My question: Do Israelis on the street actually think it is OK to bulldoze the homes of Palestinians without letting the families even retrieve their belongings? Answer my question.
Documents. PA and Hamas. Still in effect as they have not been superseded with anything. Go ahead, show us the new Charter. And show us how these quotes which go along with those charters are false; Jibril Rajoub, Deputy-Secretary of the Fatah Central Committee """They are coming to the occupied lands. All of Palestine - from the river to the sea - it's all occupied.""" Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal """Palestine is ours, from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land. We will never recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take."""
Even though those homes sit over a tunnel used for smuggling, were used as a storage point for munitions or a terrorist next. Wow, you need to look up MILITARY OCCUPATION sometime then get back to us. So please, for the love of God just show us a few maps or pictures of Hamas storage areas that are not in homes, public buildings or UN facilities. We know they have them, know they set them up and fire them so where on earth are they other than in those homes and public buildings? It has saved a lot of lives, ore Palestinian then Israelis to tell the truth. That this escapes you is due to your not doing your research. Palestinians have had the violent destruction of Israel as their policy for a long time and well before any settlements or occupation. The US, UK, France were all democracies and occupied Germany post WWII. What clap trap are you spewing now? Nice question but has zip to do with a military occupation. Try google and post your results and once again I'll say; a military occupation is a military matter. Opinions are great for discussing things in the papers and in the voting booth.
This is just pure ignorance on your part. The PLO, the ruling party of Abbas recognized Israel in 1993 - MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO. The meaningful direction of today has nothing to do with the ancient Hamas document. In fact, the larger issues in creating the unity government have to do with controlling border crossings, pay for government employees, etc. Yet, Israel works to keep the Gaza government as outliers and continues to wage war against them even now, with clear statements by Netanyahu that they have NO interest in ceasing their war. Finding radical statements by individuals living a decade long war with a nation with superior fire power and zero interest in negotiation??? Wow - what can I say but BFD.
More sophistry. The primary reason given for bulldozing homes is that the papers of the owner and resident don't meet the requirements of the military occupation. And, I'm talking about homes in West Bank, whose president continues to receive the praise of the IDF as partners in security, and again I guess I have to point out that the bulldozing of the homes of families is most commonly NOT AN ISSUE OF SECURITY. And, your ignorance again => The PLO, the party of Abbas and the ruling party of West Bank recognized Israel in 1993, more than 20 years ago. The US did not bulldoze family homes in Germany in order to give the property to Americans. So, your WWII analogy is total ignorance. There is NO military justification for continued occupation of West Bank that can't be negotiated. All that is happening today is continued ethnic cleansing and a low grade resistance that is even opposed by the government of West Bank - according to the IDF. So, MORE SOPHISTRY FROM YOU! And, you did NOT answer my question: Do Israelis on the street actually think it is OK to bulldoze the homes of Palestinians without letting the families even retrieve their belongings? Answer my question.
Then why would their key document and their leaders words state that they own the entire land of Israel and vow to destroy Israel thorough violence then. Jibril Rajoub, Deputy-Secretary of the Fatah Central Committee """They are coming to the occupied lands. All of Palestine - from the river to the sea - it's all occupied.""" Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal """Palestine is ours, from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land. We will never recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take.""" When your enemy is intent on doing everything they can to destroy you then anything less is suicide. Not individuals but the leaders of Hamas and PA. Unless of course you have no idea of who is in charge of either organization in which case all I can say is come back when you have a clue. Proof of something here please as I have no idea of what exactly a military occupation requirement is other than to do as you are told. So what are the claims of Israel when they do this? Then why do their official charters and, their leaders state they own all of the former mandate area, Israel is illegal and they wish to violently destroy here by violent means? What is the official reason Israel states for doing so? Sorry but even if, and I say if, the Palestinians decree to rescind their declaration of war, remove the violent destruction of Israel from their offical charters and make peace they still have to prove they can stop their hot headed population from attempting to do so and until that occurs, nothing will change on the Israelis side. See, even you recognize that the PA has not adhered to what you say they proposed when in actual fact, they still call for the violent destruction of Israel in their official charters. Sure I will; Some do and some don't. Now, please answer my question, why do the official charters of the Palestinians and their leaders words call for the violent destruction of Israel and you say they don't? I showed you where they do but you have yet to show they don't. Please provide the new charters with those hateful clauses taken out and replaced with something more akin to what you say they are.
Interesting and well put. You're right of course. One must always first remember that the Palestinians started this conflict by reacting violently to the imposition of a mass immigration project aimed at taking over the country from Europe. This project was of course completely ethical and no one ever or could possibly object to it within reason. Or on the other hand perhaps the project was entirely immoral and unreasonable and the Palestinians had no choice but to try and prevent it. And therefore all blame should lie with zionism rather than Palestinians. Which do you think it is?
Um no the documents are not in effect. The PA has cooperated closely with Israel for over a decade now.
