Lol indeed they are holding on to the charter as originally made. I haven't denied it. And they are also in long term cooperation in all aspects of their lives across a range of issues and subjects. It's not my opinion it is the fact. Not my problem if you want to deny the facts.
Had me fooled as you were going on to n o end about how the things were irrelevant and all but glad to see you agree that they are. Yes like ensuring they are in control of their own population like Syria, Lebanon and Hamas is supposed to be. Oh I don't deny for a second that the PA and Israel maintain a border and cooperate to keep their hotheads from crossing back and forth to murder Israelis and that for years Abbas has been threatening to cancel same. Point being, it's all posturing in order to carry out the official goal of eradicating Israel as per their charter. You know, the one that Abbas states is near sacred in it's importance to all Palestinians.
Yes, I agree. Carry on. The price of stopping this behaviour is not worth it to me. Israel is strong enough as a nation to make that price too high for anyone. So it will continue.
UNGA 181 was a recommendation by the General Assembly subject to the approval of the people of Palestine and it was REJECTED by the representatives of 2/3rd's of the Palestinian People that included the Arabs and the Jews. But we're not addressing 1947-49 but instead we're addressing 2016.
If Israel continues to refuse a just and equitable peace agreement and continues to illegally settle Palestinian territory in violation of Article 49 of the Geneva Conventions eventually the UN Security Council is going to act. Israel is not capable of standing up against enforcement by the Security Council that would first establish economic sanctions cutting off all foreign trade that Israel relies on for it's existence. The days of the United States preventing UN Security Council intervention are coming to an end and without the US veto power on the Security Council there will be intervention.
Shiva_TD is a well-meaning idealist. He is sincere, and ready to walk the mile. It's realists such as I that don't believe Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state, period. Neither the Balfour Declaration nor UN R181 were respected, be it by Jews or Arabs (those who were concerned, and opposed it all the way from the start). Regimes based on blood/religious exclusivity, furthermore when they are colonies, are IMO incompatible with modernity. It is even worse when such regimes are militaristic, based on irrational old legends and looking for aggressive, unlawful expension. Israel had a 60+ years go at the bat. It failed; In spite of its enormous means, the area still reject Israel like a host rejects a bad graft. And it will get worse before it gets any better.
No. The UN security council is not going to act. The UK and the USA will veto any such action. Sorry. We have too many Israeli sympathisers within our own populations. I think the most you will see in terms of sanctions is what you already see in Europe. Israeli goods will be labelled as such. You personally will be empowered to personally sanction Israel. The issue is too divisive in the UK, the government will never come down either way. It will continue to tap dance in the middle. To try and appease both sides at the same time.
Well, zionist expension in the WB is what will happen anyway, no matter peace, truces, treaties, ententes or laws, until the day the zionist regime falls. And it will - the grafted hand cannot reject the host body, unless both dies. No degree of Palestinian submission will ever prevent zionists to abuse them on a daily basis.
No, it wasn't subject to anything as it was a recommendation. The Jews accepted this recommendation and formed a state in 1948 and the Palestinians accepted this recommendation and formed theirs in 2012.
The above brainwash rant has NOTHING to do with pragmatism, reality or honest foresight... 2017 will be another ball game where a continuous loss for the terrorists will make them quit the game completely. One cannot build castles on moving sand.
No I haven't denied they exist. It's you who tells us that the bits you don't like in charter are the most relevant element of their relationship. Yes. And like cooperation in security and trade and even settlements. Um no its not posturing its actually a close every day relationship across all areas from economics to trade to security and environmental protection. It's the "sacred importance" of the charter that's the posturing bit. You've got it backwards as usual. Your problem is you take all propaganda at face value and don't think what constituency it's aimed at.
Hey... I found a place called <Palestine> in Texas, I am sure It could accommodate all the present Jetsam and Flotsam populating <the ancestral HOME of the Jews also called Israel>...
Just going by what Abbas says and, that is that the charter is their most important document. You mean the arming of security forces that murder Israelis or the ones that allow lone wolf attacks or did you mean the one that 70% of Palestinians see as traitors and Abbas is hinting he is going to dismantle so there is no cooperation? No, I have it right. The west gets the next to zero "cooperation" part of the propaganda and the Palestinians get the real facts AKA death to Israel and the seizure of the entire former mandate by the Palestinians. Your problem is that you don't actually believe what their officials say but rather cherry pick what you wish to see as their real agenda.
Oh really then why didnt you go by these also? http://www.azquotes.com/author/8-Mahmoud_Abbas LOL, the security forces that prevent 200 attacks on Israelis, arrest 100 people and are immediately condemened by hard liners for it? Or the fact that Abbas even announced an end to cooperation over a year ago without ever actualy ending it? LOL. The west gets so much cooperation that the Security commander is actually condemned by the other parties in West Bank politics. Meawhile Palestinians conduct peaceful cooperation across business and the environmental projects. You really just dont even read up on the daily business of the Palestinians at all do you? Really? Do you? I believe they mean everything they say, and dont miss out anything they say, nor do i pick out some bits and discard the rest. You however, clearly ignore some things they say while demanding that we all focus on the charter parts you dont like - why do you do that?
Simply because they don't mean squat when they say their charter is their most important document and it calls for the violent destruction of Israel. He said it, his number two says it and their charter says it. What they say to the press is for people like you who believe their intentions are only peaceful. That is their official position. Try as you like to say it is not however Abbas and his fellow leaders say it is and admit it calls for the violent destruction of Israel. That said, the day it is changed so will my entire position. Until then, they are the self declared and self perpetuated enemy of Israel.
Why does it mean squat? The charter elements you object to are easily outweighed by their actions, and moreover this is their actual official position; http://www.nad-plo.org/userfiles/file/Non-Peper/End of Claims Non-Paper 2010.pdf Do you realy think that when they told their own that the charter is the most important document that they thought no one else would ever know what they said? No this is their official position; http://www.nad-plo.org/userfiles/file/Non-Peper/End of Claims Non-Paper 2010.pdf And in more detail, this; http://www.nad-plo.org/userfiles/file/primer_english_020311.pdf Abbas and his fellow say alot of other things to. You contend that what they say about the charter is the most important element, yet you dont expain why that is so. You dont even explain why they would engage in so much cooperation year after year. Your position will change alot sooner than that. The fact that im now foricing you to explain yoursef mean that soon youll realise you have no choice.
The national identity of every nation is based upon the people of that nation. It cannot be dictated by outside entities. It was for this reason that the Palestinian Authority has refused to recognize Israel as a "Jewish state" while being willing to recognize Israel as a nation within it's sovereign territory where the people of Israel, regardless of their religious beliefs, ethnic background, or other invidious criteria, have a right to live in peace. We can't have a double standard where countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia can call themselves Muslim nations but not allow Israel to call itself a Jewish nation. As outsiders we have no say in what a nation wants to establish as it's national identity while, at the same time, any of us that believe "all people are created equal' cannot condone any nation that bases it's national identity upon any invidious criteria that divides the nation into the "preferred" and the "disparaged" people of that nation. We can respect their national sovereignty without condoning any invidious criteria they establish in their national identity. Bottom line I don't condone a "Muslim Palestine" or a "Jewish Israel" because both are using an invidious criteria that divides the people into the "preferred" and the "disparaged" people of the nation but I respect the right of the people of both nations to their own government and national sovereignty. A Muslim living in Israel should be equal to a Jew living in Israel and a Jew living in Palestine should be equal to a Muslim living in Palestine. There should never be an invidious criteria that divides the people of a nation. Ideologically there's no fundamental difference between a "Muslim" nation, a "Jewish" nation, a "white" nation, a "black" nation, or a "Christian" nation, and the "Aryan" nation of Nazi Germany. The only difference is how far the "preferred" group is willing to go to oppress those that are not a part of that preferred group. Perhaps I'm an idealistic minority but I really despise racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and other forms of hatred based upon invidious criteria that disparages any person.
Are you aware of the fact that the Declaration of Independence basically calls for the ethnic cleansing of all Arabs from all of Palestine? http://stateofisrael.com/declaration/ Theodor Herzl, generally acknowledged as the "father" of Zionism, advocated the forced expulsion of the Arabs from all of Palestine and not just to the territory that belongs to Israel today. There are may pro-Israeli supporters, some on this forum, that continue to advocate the expulsion and ethnic cleansing of the Arabs from all of Palestine based upon Theodor Herzil's vision of a Jewish state occupying all of Palestine. Theodor Herzl's vision represents a significant reason why Israel doesn't want a lasting peace based upon a two-state solution because peace would remove any future rationalizations for another invasion of Palestinian territory to take control of all of Palestine and expulsion of the Arabs. In 1967 Israel rationalized an invasion of Palestine based upon a perceived threat by Egypt and not based upon any threat by the Palestinians. If Israel establishes a lasting peace with the Palestinians within their recognized territory then they won't be able to rationalize another invasion of Palestine with the ultimate goal of taking over that territory and expelling the Arabs. So some call for the PO and Hamas to repeal their charters but what about Israel repealing it's Declaration of Independence that's calling for the ethnic cleansing of the Arabs from all of Palestine based upon Theodor Herzl's vision of a Jewish state? Post Script: "Impelled by this historic association, Jews strove throughout the centuries to go back to the land of their fathers and regain their statehood." This statement in the Jewish Declaration of Independence is false. There was never any historical movement or expressed desire by the Jewish people to relocate to Palestine until the Zionist movement of the late 19th Century. In fact recent genetic studies indicate that roughly 80% of the European Jews had no historical or hereditary linkage to the Middle East at all. They had no more desire to return to Palestine than I do of returning to Demark or England that represent my actual hereditary background. We also know that most Jews have no desire even today to relocate to Israel because most Jews live outside of Israel. This is not the only fictional statement made in the Israeli Declaration of Independence but it is the only fictional statement I actually quoted.
That's a great post. The crime isn't in the way a nation defines itself; Take Quebec, for exemple, a french-speaking nation among a sea of anglo-saxons: As a rule, Quebecois nationalists (for good or for worse) define language as their main national trait: It isn't an exclusive trait, as new arrivants can simply learn french and then be considered Quebecois themselves (usually as soon as the second generation comes up). It doesn't require them to change religion or forgot their customs, the ideal aim being an inclusive, rich homogenous society with as few ethnical ghettoes as possible. By chosing to organically absorb the immigrants and make them full citizens, nations like Quebec and the US are insured that only Quebecois/Americans will populate the country in 5, 15 or 45 years, no matter if they are not the archetype to which the nation is identified. They are modern nations made up with immigration. Other nations are old and not threatened by demographics, such as the KSA and Iran, so their Muslims laws are more "organic" than if the country was subjected to massive foreign immigration or colonisation. This isn't the case for Israel: It is neither inclusive nor organic: The fact that they are a rigidly segregated nation makes that non-jews (in their case) are seen as competitors instead of collaborators. That's a problem when living in an arabic sea. Sooner or later, if it can't bend it will break. It will break without a single shot being fired. Israel, as a zionist regime, has already lost. It is an anachronism, a mistake, a failure. I would support a Jewish state in the levant, but only on territories where Jewish majority are natural and sustainable by birth (not massive immigration), so the adoption of apartheist laws would not be needed. Of course, it aslo requires that this nation be peaceful and even a benefit for it's neighbours, given its fragility. See? In the end I am just as idealistic as you are!
Not quite there yet idealistically. My political ideology is based upon these two lines from the US Declaration of Independence that established the political ideology of the United States (and that we've never come close to living up to). We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. First I would point out that it doesn't state that the powers of government are based upon the "citizens" but instead the powers are granted by everyone subjected to the authority of the government. This represents all of the permanent residents regardless of citizenship that are living in the country. The criteria of "citizen" is an invidious criteria because it disparages the "non-citizen" that is also a part of society that is subjected to the authority of the government. Tyranny is often defined as "government exercising absolute power or in a cruel manner" and when a person is subjected to the powers of government where they are not allowed to consent to those powers the government is inherently tyrannical. This is applicable to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because the Palestinians Arabs have been subjected to the "powers" of the Israeli government since 1967 but have been denied any opportunity to "consent" to those powers because they're "non-citizens" of the government exercising power over them. Every time the Israeli government authorizes the destruction of a home of a "non-Israeli" Arab in the West Bank or East Jerusalem it's violating the rights of the "non-citizen" that wasn't allowed to "consent to the powers of government" and it's committing an act of tyranny. Of course we have the same problem, to a lesser degree, here in the United States because we prohibit non-citizens (permanent residents) from voting. We used to allow it, and in fact at one time 40 US states and territories protected the rights of non-citizens to vote, but that was when the statutory laws only allowed white men to vote. As soon as the 14th Amendment (equal protection) and 15th Amendment (prohibitions against denying the vote based upon race) were ratified those laws were quickly repealed and replaced with laws prohibiting non-citizens from voting because the majority weren't "white men" and the "White Nationalists/White Supremacists" had to protect their political powers. The "White Nationalists/White Supremacists" ignored the fact that the US Constitution, in Article I and in the 17th Amendment expressly states that members of Congress are to be elected by the "people" that includes both the citizen and non-citizen permanent residents that are counted by the US census every ten years. The US Constitution isn't racist but statutory laws that deny the right to vote for non-citizens have always been based upon the invidious criteria of racism in the United States to prevent non-whites from voting. You will find that I support the right to vote for non-citizen permanent residents because they're subjected to the same powers of government that the citizens are subjected to. On immigration I will note that Thomas Jefferson rightfully established that all people have a natural right to immigrate between the country of their birth and the country they choose to live in. This is referred to as "expatriation" and it is based upon the natural Right of Liberty of the person. Any nation that restricts the ability of a person to peacefully immigrate from the country or to peacefully immigrate to the country is violating the Natural Right of Liberty of that person. The "natural right of liberty" of the person cannot be restricted by "borders established by governments" that are artificial barriers as opposed to being a natural barrier. I support open borders where people are allowed to freely immigrate for peaceful purposes because of their "Right of Liberty" supersedes the "powers" of government.
Thought we just went through this. Here again; "Simply because they don't mean squat when they say their charter is their most important document and it calls for the violent destruction of Israel. He said it, his number two says it and their charter says it. What they say to the press is for people like you who believe their intentions are only peaceful." A discussion paper. Since when does that replace a Charter? You seem to ignore this fact so I would have to say yes. This paper is for discussion purposes only A pamphlet for English speaking people's consumption. How non official of them. I did, they want to attain a tactical advantage as it's all posturing in order to carry out the official goal of eradicating Israel as per their charter. You know, the one that Abbas states is near sacred in it's importance to all Palestinians. Hardly forcing me to do anything as they have already officially declared their intent. All you are doing is attempting to ignore that hard and fast point so will continue to post irrelevant arguments expecting my answers to change but, the only thing that will make my argument to change is actual changes in their official position, not pamphlets and discussion papers which you seem to believe carry more weight than a nations official Charter..
""In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to return to the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, with full and equal citizenship and due representation in its bodies and institutions - provisional or permanent."" Show me where that calls for the ethnic cleansing of all Arabs from all of Palestine.
Why do their efforts mean squat just because of the charter? The IRA still has an aim of a united Ireland, hasnt changed that aim one bit. Still made a final deal. Their actions are far more important than their charter. Since it tells Israel and the world exactly in detail what their issues are and where resolution can be made. LOL. Say it again, a PA meeting, under constant watch by Israeli security, regional and world media, with roving reporters everywhere doesnt think its words are recorded? Go on, say that one again Drew. LOL wrong.. A discussion paper that enunciates exactly what the PA position is. Produced by the very authority involved, not some blogger or some News organisation. Very official indeed. LOL some tactical advantage? Closer ties to Isreal? Increased prosperity? Trade links throughout both countries? All things that make harder and harder for their populace to accept war in the future. Why isnt then the Israeli military telling Israelis that cooperation is a security threat? Why indeed are Israelis cooperating at all? No your ignorant nonsense wont wash and doesnt make sense. LOL. They declared their intent when Israel didnt even recognise their existence and today it contends that their capital is all theirs and their land is up for grabs. They've no need to change a single sentence when Israel hasnt changed their position on Palestinian land. None of that makes them an irreconcilable enemy as conflict resolution across the world has shown. Their long record of cooperation despite continued settlement, arrest and thievery of water, while even when the PA continued cooperation during the recent dramatic incidents of the last years even including the Gaza invasion means your argument that the document is most important driver of palestinian action is dead and youre already changing it. It has nothing to prove it to be so and therefore doesnt exist. It was crushed by reality.
Because the Charter is their official position. Not an information pamphlet or a discussion paper but what they swear is their goal. You need some stick figures to provide a visual or something it seems. It will need more than token actions. Israel closing off West Bank amid fears of further terror attacks Could have saved themselves the trouble and the ink and just used your posts and, it would be just as official. LOL and in your world politicians always tell the truth. Truth is their charter, not what song they want the world to dance to. Let's see the official determination of it, as well as the signatories and how it replaces their Charter. If it doesn't have that then it's just a paper with some notes on it. Because something is better than nothing. ""Eisenkot cautiously praised the PA for an increased effort in clamping down on terrorist activity saying the PA security apparatus was now making a 40% effort, as compared to 10% in the recent past."" Why isn't the effort 100% creation? Answer is the same answer as why they don't actually change their charter - political suicide. They have no intention of making peace and, do what they minimally can in order to gain advantage. As I said, when they change their charter it will prove that they truly intend to make peace, until then it's just posturing. They were the ones who declared war and have the violent destruction of Israel as their official goal. Happened long before there was any occupation. The long record of minimal cooperation huh. ""Eisenkot cautiously praised the PA for an increased effort in clamping down on terrorist activity saying the PA security apparatus was now making a 40% effort, as compared to 10% in the recent past.""
