Strange, their leaders still espouse the same fundamental precepts as the charters so when did they change? I know the PA voted to change theirs but never did so please show us all where they actually were changed and be sure to post the new versions and link as well thanks.. So has Hamas, Syria and Lebanon but that certainly doesn't mean they are at peace.
This proposal offers you peace within the internationally recognized borders of Israel. Historically it's "originally the Land of Canaan" and not Israel........ Remember? The Jews entered the Land of Canaan and committed genocide with the mass slaughter of the Canaanite men, women and children that lived there.... or so we've been told. Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the Lord your God. (Deut. 20.16-1 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. (1 Sam 15:2-3) I wonder how many see the historical analogy between what happened in ancient Jewish history and events of the 20th Century....
Historically inaccurate based upon the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement of 1949 that actually allowed "Israeli" military forces to occupy Palestinian (Arab) land outside of the recommended "two-state territorial solution" in UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947) that was rejected by the representatives of 2/3rds of the people living in Palestine. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/isjorarm.html In any case this became moot with the United Nations recognition of Israel as a nation and the establishment of it's internationally recognized borders that do not include the West Bank or E Jerusalem. Jordan, at the conclusion of the 1948-49 Israel-Arab War, became the administrator over the part of Palestine not occupied by the Israeli forces (replacing the British Mandatory) and that territory was never annexed to become a part of Jordan. Had that been the case then Israel would still be required to withdraw from the "Palestinian Territory" and return that land to Jordan. Of course Israel has long claimed that this territory didn't belong to Jordan (because it never did) and Israel can't have it both ways. Once again we must move into the 21st Century and put the past into the past. Israel has internationally recognized borders and Palestine has internationally recognized borders and each needs to confine itself to their own borders respecting the rights of their neighbors to live in peace within their recognized borders. That is the core foundation for the proposed peace accord to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that will also have significant positive outcomes for Israel with other Middle East nations.
In formal peace negotiations with Israel the Palestinian Authority has proposed a permanent peace agreement based upon UN Security Council Resolution 242. Hamas, that was banned from those negotiations by Israel, has formally acknowledged that it would accept a two-state solution fundamentally based upon UN Security Council Resolution 242 as documented in the OP. Israel has refused to consider or endorse a permanent peace agreement based upon the provisions of UN Security Council Resolution 242 that's equitable for both sides of the conflict. As long as Israel insists on remaining a hostile military force of occupation within any part of the internationally recognized borders of the "Palestinian Territory" there's no reason for the PA or Hamas to change their Charters. Arguably all Israel has to do is to embrace the provisions of UN Security Council Resolution 242 to establish a reason for the Palestinian Authority and Hamas to change their Charters.
In your opinion of course. In reality they are wide open to accept any and all peace agreements based upon the provisions of UN Security Council Resolution 242 as they did with Egypt and Jordan.
Um no that's factually incorrect. The PA is not espousing the same fundamental precepts in fact he is talking about coexistence reasonably for years. So I don't need to show you any new versions because there doesn't even need to be one in advance of a final Israeli withdrawal. No only the PA has in fact cooperated closely for years. Please stick to the facts. - - - Updated - - - No in fact that's rubbish. They annexed Jerusalem and didn't even consider the Saudi peace plan.
The Israeli Declaration of Independence was in many ways identical to the American Declaration of Independence. It was a formal declaration of war. In the case of the United States it was a declaration of war against England and in the case of Israel it was a declaration of war against the Arab Council that, with the withdrawal of the British, was the formally recognized government of the majority of the people living in Palestine. In 1948 it was the "Zionist Jews" that declared war and not the Arab nations that came to the defense of the majority of the Palestinian people. Since 1948 Israel was recognized as an independent nation (just like the United States) and it's international borders were established. At the same time the balance of "Palestine" was established as the "Palestinian territory" and it belongs to the people living there that are overwhelmingly Arabs some of which were forced from their homes in "Israel" as refugees in 1948-49 and rightfully should have been Israeli citizens (assuming they were willing to pledge allegiance to the government of Israel). In 1967 it was Israel that launched the offensive military invasion and not Egypt, Jordan, or Syria. Ironically Israel never used any arguments against the Palestinians in rationalizing it's invasion and occupation of their territory because the Palestinians represented no threat whatsoever to Israel in 1967. Why should the Palestinians have to negotiate for territory that the United Nations has already established belongs to them? Do you negotiate with the burglar over which rooms they have to leave or do you require them to leave your whole house? "Israel" has internationally recognized borders and the "Palestinian Territory" has internationally recognized borders. The internationally recognized territorial borders are non-negotiable. There is no "resetting of the clock" because Israel has been a hostile military force of occupation in the Palestinian Territory from 1967 to the present. It isn't what happened in 1948 or even 1967 that really matters today. We're addressing the fact that TODAY Israel is a hostile military force of occupation in territory outside of it's internationally recognized borders. Israel has no right to occupy any territory outside of it's internationally recognized borders and UNSC 242 establishes the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war."
Israel is not willing to accept "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" or the "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the (1967) conflict" that would include not just E Jerusalem and the West Bank but also the Golan Heights in Syria. In fact Israel doesn't even accept the Rights of the Palestinians "to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force" because it remains a hostile military force of occupation in the Palestinian territory. There is next to nothing that Israel agrees to when it comes to UNSC 242.
When is the PA going to change their charter? Pretty simple thing to do, heck, they even voted to do so but it still remains unchanged. Until it is, they officially state that Israel is to be destroyed by violence and therefore have squat to stand on as they are the self declared enemy with no intention of being otherwise.
I got this far and then just had to dismiss the rest of your posts as you are so far out to lunch that it's not even worth responding to as after mentioning how their nation was born of UNGA 181 (the same resolution which Abbas based the nation of Palestine on in 2012) the Israeli Declaration of Independence states; ""WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East. "" How war like. (Poe's Law enacted) Come back when you learn a bit about presenting something based on fact thanks. Oh, BTW, the formal declaration of war came the next day with the Cablegram to the UN Secretary General from the Arab League as you are well aware. You know, the one where the Palestinians were represented and so complicit as they were part of it which stated they were going into the former Mandate Area to set up their own government. (Which would of course require the destruction of Israel)
I don't know when they're going to change it. At the moment they have very little reason to do so. Since they've voted on it they can do it any time they wish. But obviously it isn't actually that important a matter for them or Israel. In fact they officially state quite a lot of things regarding peaceful cooperation and the development of the West Bank. So really they've proven they're not a self declared enemy. http://www.nad-plo.org/
Surely you realize that the government of Gaza was set up before any members of Hamas held leadership positions. Maybe you will remember that the blockade was set up because in the estimation of Israel the people of Gaza did not vote correctly(!!) Beyond that, there are at least 3 separate Hamas groups, with none of them having any over arching control. So, nobody can change that old Hamas document in any meaningful way. The real movement toward change that has been occurring on the Palestinian side is the formation of a unity government that accepts the Abbas direction of eschewing violent means. Of course, that's difficult when Israel refuses to respond to peaceful means - in fact, when Israel states that they will NEVER accept peaceful resolution. And, yes, you can easily find radical statements, as the state of Israel was carved out of Palestinian land without even their participation. And, now there is the Israeli war against Gaza to which Israel refuses to negotiate an end and ethnic cleansing of the land Israel was NOT given - an internationally recognized humanitarian crime.
More sophistry. Why should I expect more? The major reason for bulldozing Palestinian homes is that the papers of the residents don't meet the requirements of the Israeli occupation. That has NOTHING to do with "tunnels". Why would anyone divulge military arms to the enemy that has been carrying out war for 10 years??? AGAIN, the PLO recognized Israel in 1993 - 20 YEARS AGO. And, the IDF has consistently pointed out that Abbas is their primary partner in security. And, no, the military occupation and ethnic cleansing of West Bank ARE THE ISSUE. Suggesting they aren't is preposterous. So, answer my question: Do Israelis on the street actually think it is OK to bulldoze the homes of Palestinians without letting the families even retrieve their belongings?
Wow - this is getting old! The charter of which you speak is an old Hamas document - it does NOT describe the direction of Palestine today nor even the direction of Hamas. In 1993 the PLO recognized Israel. Under Abbas, the direction has been to end terrorism, support the IDF in security (as much as they can, given the occupation), and follow a path of negotiation. The IDF states that Abbas has followed through on that. No branch of Hamas has the right to speak for all Hamas. So, you will undoubtedly NEVER see a change in that old document. The direction for peaceful negotiation and end to Israel's war on Gaza is a unification of the governments of Gaza and West Bank. The Hamas government has bought off on the demands of Abbas that Hamas accepts a purely nonviolent approach and the permanence of Israel. The problems that divide the governments of Gaza and West Bank do not have to do with those issues. They are accepted. You are just so in the dark on this subject that I am TOTALLY ASTOUNDED!
The PA Charter calls for the violent destruction of Israel. To make peace it has to be changed as it is viewed by the PA leadership as their most important legislation. That they have not done so shows they have no intention of making peace.
WillReadmore; You made a lot of subjective allegations with zero substance to back them up but posing them as facts. You made this false statement: "... the blockade was set up because in the estimation of Israel the people of Gaza did not vote correctly(!!) " The above is an out and out lie. The blockade was set up to prevent the smuggling of weapons in to Hamas. Israel had no problems with who Palestinians voted in. They withdrew from Gaza. They tried to make peace with Gaza. It was Hamas that chose to continue attacking Israel causing those blockades. Your attempt to spin history to pretend the blockade is not an ant-terrorist weapon embargo simply a punishment for voting for Hamas is false. If there was no terrorists attacking Israel from the Gaza and digging more tunnels to attack as we speak, there would be no need for BOTH Egypt and Israel to have blockades on what is going in and out. More to the point smugglers are getting a lot of weapons in so fret not. You stated: "The real movement toward change that has been occurring on the Palestinian side is the formation of a unity government that accepts the Abbas direction of eschewing violent means." The above is your ridiculous spin posed as fact. Abbas is 80. He represents the remaining vestige of the corupt PLO. He has always been and will always be a person who does not believe Jews can exist in a Jewish state and where Israel is today must become a Sharia law state and eventually unify with Jordan and the West Bank. Abbas is another stale version of Hamas. One of their wings poses in suits, shows up at the United Nations demanding human rights, the other wing, Al Fatah engages in terrorism. Hamas is no different, one politician wing and one militia terroristwing not 3 not 4. You don't understand either Fatah or Hamas. Their cells are units of about 5-10 each with its own leader and most do not know the plans of any other cell. Its an old tactic first used in Algeria so if someone is captured, they can't say too much. Your posing as an expert on either or that Abbas has now chosen terror is ludicrous. He's always embraced it. You just don't read the Paletsinian or Muslim press where he says far different things than for consumption to the West. Now you made this sweeping partisan statement: "Of course, that's difficult when Israel refuses to respond to peaceful means - in fact, when Israel states that they will NEVER accept peaceful resolution." Absolute crap. How you state that is beyond the pale. Hamas, Abbas, the Arab League, they have all indicated, they will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state and will not stop until its a sharia law state. You can spin, pretend, engage in all the fantasy you want but that position has never changed. No Arab leader at this time will denounce Palestinian terrorism against Israel. A Kuwait Prince indirectly hinted at it a month ago and it was again rejected in the Arab presses as traiterous ramblings. I don't give a damn how many times you come with the false script that Israel has been offered a peace resolution that peace resolution states we will recognize Israel if it disbands being Jewish and becomes a Muslim sharia law state. That game of suggesting that peace resolution is just that is tiresome and its spent. You can spin it over and over to pretend it means recognition of an Israeli Jewish state but it does not and never once has Abbas, Hamas offered to disarm. In fact they said they will never disarm and never stop until Israel is detroyed. It can't get clearer then that. You made this ignorant statement: "the state of Israel was carved out of Palestinian land without even their participation. " You spew that because you grow up thinking truth comes from web sites that tell you what you want to hear and back up your anti Israel position. Doesn't make them true. It just shows you are entrenched in your biases and repeat a stale one showing you are not interested in discussion just coming to the board to propose as an expert on the creation of Israel and what it does wrong. You also made this out and out false lie: "And, now there is the Israeli war against Gaza to which Israel refuses to negotiate an end..." It is public knowledge both Israel and the PA agreed to the peace proposal offered by Egypt and it was Hamas on John Kerry's urging who said to Hamas, don't agree causing another 3-4 weeks of war until Hamas surrendered. Your attempt to just out and out reinvent history when its public record is foolish. Also your idiotic comment that Israel was ethnically cleansed is a purile and worn out statement. The fact is Arab Israelis thrive in Israel testament to the fact they were not in fact ethnically cleansed. The soaring population rates in Gaza and the West Bank are testament in numbers to the fact no cleansing has happened. Interesting people like you will not discuss that Israel now has the children and grandchildren of 700,000 of 900,000 Jews thrown out of the Arab League nations and now about 100, Ethiopian Felashi Jews forced to flee as well as Yemeni Jews forced to flee their civil war. Finally go look up Israel on a map and stop posing as a Middle East analyst unless you at least make an effort to back up your wild allegations with references. and ethnic cleansing of the land Israel was NOT given - an internationally recognized humanitarian crime.[/QUOTE]
Nope. You need to do some research as I said 'charters' meaning both the Palestinian Authority Charter as well as the Hamas Charter. Both call for the violent destruction of Israel. Did they now. So why is their official position the violent destruction of Israel and the claiming of the entire former mandate area for themselves? Strange, I remember something about them applauding the decision to change the PA Charter but nothing about it actually being changed. Perhaps you would be so kind as to show us this new improved PA Charter without the old verses about destroying Israel and claiming it is illegal. As I showed earlier the PA Charter also calls for the destruction of Israel so a merger changes squat. Says the guy who didn't know we were talking about two charters I already did. To be fair you now need to answer my question ; why do the official charters of the Palestinians and their leaders words call for the violent destruction of Israel and you say they don't? Provide proof of this statement please otherwise we can just credit to an overactive imagination. To sum up, 1. Israel never said the charter had been changed but that the PA promised it would be changed. As we know, it has not been changed. 2. We know they cooperate to a certain degree as do many nations who are at war and, know they have peace talks which mean that Palestine is still at war otherwise they wouldn't be having peace talks as they had a) either had already had them and are at peace or; b) the official position of the charter had been changed and Palestine is at peace in which case they certainly would be wasting time talking about something that already occurred. 3. The Palestinian leadership has already stated that they view the charter as the most important thing since sliced falafel and that it will never be changed from the most offensive document it was. ""It will remain as is. It won't be subject to discussion," Azzam al-Ahmad, a senior Fatah leader, said. The charter calls for armed struggle "until the Zionist entity is wiped out and Palestine is liberated"." Abbas still preaches that it is quite relevant. May 28 2013 - Abbas; "(Ahmad) Shuqeiri was asked to figure out what the Palestinians wanted, and he returned with the convention for the PLO," Abbas said at a meeting to mark the 49th anniversary of the PLO's founding. "We should remind ourselves that this is the most important and significant event in the history of the Palestinian people," the president added. "Before the PLO we had no political presence but after its creation we did." So, we have Abbas stating that the Charter is their most important and significant event and his sidekick admitting it is never going to be changed. The Palestinian Authority Charter says; (Italics mine) ""Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit. "" The entire former mandate area is Palestinian, just them and no Israel ""Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase."" No peace treaties are valid to achieve taking the entire former Mandate area, only war. ""Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war."" Acknowledging it is war and violence is the only way. ""Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal"" Doesn't sound like they recognize Israel at all ""Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization. "" No to any other method of resolving this such as negotiation, deals, just them taking the entire former Mandate area for their own. ""Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland. "" A lot of hate in this one. ""Article 29: The Palestinian people possess the fundamental and genuine legal right to liberate and retrieve their homeland."" Giving themselves the right to fight and take the entire mandate area for themselves. So, now that you know there is two Charters being discused and, have been shown that they have not been changed, are viewed by the leadership of the Palestinians as the most important documents and, can see the passages in the PA Charter which deny the right of Israel to live in the former mandate area and the call to destroy her through violence I think that since I did answer your question that you might now answer mine; ""why do the official charters of the Palestinians and their leaders words call for the violent destruction of Israel and you say they don't? "
As long as one side is winning militarily, there will be no peace and no great effort by that side to make peace. Peace will either come by the destruction of one side's ability to resist, by a superior force destroying both sides ability to attack, or by a parity in the arms race resulting in mutually assured destruction.
So in your view Israel may as well just keep on building settlements as there will never be peace? Many in Israel would agree with you.
No that's mere supposition that you seen to want to force in everyone. The charter does not have to be changed. In fact all one needs is a commitment to and a record of continued cooperation in a range of areas.
Well then if nothing needs to change then we should just go by actions where the Arabs declare war on Israel and now Palestinians stabs Jews or lobs rockets which, BTW, fit in exactly with their charters and the words of their leaders who espouse those same ideas from the charters.
LOL. Or we could go with a record of continued cooperation and beneficial relations for over a decade by the vast majority of Palestinians which goes nicely with their current administration positions also. Which do you think and why?
Majority of West Bank youth back knife attacks on Israelis, poll finds A majority of Palestinians still back near-daily stabbing attacks on Israelis And shame on you for implying the Palestinian's most important document is meaningless. ""It will remain as is. It won't be subject to discussion," Azzam al-Ahmad, a senior Fatah leader, said. The charter calls for armed struggle "until the Zionist entity is wiped out and Palestine is liberated"." Abbas still preaches that it is quite relevant. May 28 2013 - Abbas; "(Ahmad) Shuqeiri was asked to figure out what the Palestinians wanted, and he returned with the convention for the PLO," Abbas said at a meeting to mark the 49th anniversary of the PLO's founding. "We should remind ourselves that this is the most important and significant event in the history of the Palestinian people," the president added. "Before the PLO we had no political presence but after its creation we did." So, we have Abbas stating that the Charter is their most important and significant event and his sidekick admitting it is never going to be changed.
LOL. Wriggle wriggle little on the line. Most palestinians have been working with and for Israelis for over a decade. The PA has been in close cooperation with Israel for at least a decade. Thats nearly a million people. Most of the PA administrative rules and functions, and governing policies are directed to that cooperative end. And without the PLO, and without that charter, which contains those elements you find so important and so objectionable, there would be no peaceful cooperation. But please go ahead, try and wriggle out of it.
No need to wriggle, the leadership of the PA has stated the Charter is still in effect and relevant and the population agrees. I just showed that to you but go ahead and give your mistaken opinion in the face of facts that prove otherwise.
