Negotiate Peace With Russia to Prevent War Over Ukraine

I am not sure what it is in posts that support Russia but there is a repeat depiction of any rebellion or uprising by citizens as being an "American" plot, i.e., its not a popular uprising its only brought about NOT because people hate pro Russian political puppets but because they are all idiots controlled by the CIA.

You see it repeated continuously on this forum to defend Russian imperialism and its justification.

The fact is long before the US existed Russia has had a military history of showing disrespect and intolerance of everyone of its neighbours including invading them, subjecting their people to second class citizenship and imposing the Russian language and culture on them which is exactly what Russia thinks it has a right to do in Ukraine over Ukrainians.

The conflict between Ukraine and Russian transpired long before the US helped rebuild Western Europe after WW2 and will continue as long as Russians try control Ukrainians as puppets.

Putin spambots would have you believe the crisis started in 2014 presenting a ridiculously simple pat explanation that the CIA fermented an overthrow of a pro Russian government in Ukraine.

They would have you ignore 1000 years of history.

https://www.ft.com/content/aceeaeb4-f687-41f8-858e-b3b60cd21324

 

That's not what is happening. Troops and war equipment are being massed on the border. This is not a case of Russia carrying out some sort of military exercise - which there are obviously free to do.

Your last questions don't matter. They do not form a justification for Russia conquering Ukraine.

I do trust someone is analyzing the whole situation. We do have people dedicated to that job in multiple places in our federal government.

The reports so far indicate that Russia's massing of military power on the Ukrainian border is one very serious indication of intent.

Why? Maybe they care about missile defense in Ukraine. Maybe they notice that Ukraine is far better off and containing some number of citizens that like Russia, unlike other places you mention. Maybe Russia carried out its Crimea operation as a test case. Maybe Putin's statements that some Eastern European former Soviet Republicans are rightly part of Russia. Maybe they think they need to push back on the BClinton moves to support sovereignty of Eastern European countries that Russia believes they were promised wouldn't happen. Maybe they think US Republican hate for Ukraine and Biden will give them some cover. Maybe it's taken time for them to figure out their next step.

 

Did you come up with this nonsense all by yourself?

 

It is protecting Europe—from Russia.

Turkey became a NATO member sixty years ago.

"Yugoslavia?" Hooohhh-Kayyyy... Hey, a little ethnic cleansing never hurt anyone.

 

And yet Donald Trump was flying to 5 rallies a day before the election with tens of thousands of people attending each one - which of course the MSM kept hidden from the public. Do you think any other candidate would have been able to have a live audience of that magnitude attending their rallies? I don't, and this is what scares the wits out of the Democrats.

There's an agenda. The problem is that the Russian Federation has about 33% of the world's natural resources and the liberal one world government that our neo con ideologues in Washington envision, cannot exist without those resources.

Vladimir Putin to their chagrin, refuses to bow to their liberal ideals and wants to retain Russia's morals and traditions. The US could have easily worked with Russia in utilizing its wealth for the benefit of mankind, and that way both nations would have gained economically, but that wasn't to Washington's liking.

Instead, they have been doing everything possible to either break up the Russian Federation so they could grab its wealth, or to put in power people who will go along with their ideals to the detriment of the Russian people and nation. So every lie demonizing Russia and Vladimir Putin, must be seen in that context.

Russia’s Ministry of Culture has now published a draft order claiming that the following values are under threat from outside forces including terrorist and extremist organizations, multinational corporations, NGOs, and the US and its allies. Among the foreign ideas said to be invading Russia, the authors name:

"... egoism, permissiveness, amorality, and the refusal to grant Russia a positive place in history and culture."​

The draft text defines traditional values as moral guidelines that form Russian citizens’ worldview, transferring from generation to generation, guaranteeing civil unity, forming the base of Russian civilizational identity and the nation’s unified cultural space, and manifesting uniquely and distinctly in the spiritual, historical, and cultural development of the multiethnic people of Russia.

According to the order, examples of these values include life, dignity, human rights and freedom, patriotism, civic consciousness, service to the Fatherland and responsibility for its fate, high moral ideals, a strong family, creative work, prioritizing the spiritual over the material, humanism, charity, justice, collectivism, mutual support and respect, historical memory and continuity between generations, and the unity of the peoples of Russia.
​

 

The USA has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to "break up" Russia.

Plus, your warm cozy feelings for Putin are ridiculous.

Let's remember that the USA and Russia have been in close collaboration on space exploration with the ISS and with the US and Russia flying each other's astronauts.

We also had significant mutual cooperation in the treaty with Iran that caused Iran to be required to allow inspections for nuclear weapons progress. And, it was US Republicans who backed out - NOT RUSSIA.

Beyond that, Russia is a UN member and participates in cooperation with the rest of the world in that venue - which is interested in preserving Russian borders just as much as those of anyone else.

I'd also suggest your natural resources thing is both incorrect in our need for their resources as well as being incredibly impractical

 

Nice theory of what a person with political power might want to do!

Should Clinton and all our other presidents who had dalliances have shooed away the bimbos? Absolutely.

Should Trump have respected the rule of law? Absolutely.

Should Cuomo have hit on old women? Well, ...

 

The United States does not control Europe, nor does it wish to control it.

If the Soviets hadn't occupied Eastern Europe, NATO might not have existed.

What on earth are you going on about? By 1945, the U.S. had clarity about the role it was destined to play well into this century. Helping Europe recover was in the U.S. interest. Productive democracies with free enterprise economies can share the burden of defending against countries like China and Russia.

You can have your country as long as you don't try to expand your borders by force.

 

You're wrong. After the announcement of the next pact, the sanction of officials is transferred to domestic programs. Personally, I have been using OpenOffice for a long time and voluntarily.

It is not true. Putin does not want war. War propaganda is heard in the West.

You do not understand the Russian mentality. You judge with the mentality of an American. Your mistake is understandable.

You flatter considering that 100k people are military power sufficient to capture the state. The US in Iraq cost only 800k army.

that's it. I am also concerned about the tightening of missile defense around Russia.

Not now. But Mr. Yeltsin was closely supervised by the Americans. And in that period there were strong separatist sentiments. They talked half-jokingly about the secession of Siberia. Now such ideas are unthinkable, not because they are forbidden. America demonizes Putin because it failed to achieve its "soft" method.

 

They know it and we know it. We would not tolerate Canada becoming part of a hostile alliance. It's just a fact. The same goes for Mexico.

 

Michael Tracey on Twitter: "Ukraine president just blamed the US for stoking "panic" about an allegedly imminent Russian invasion, and insists that the situation today is basically the same as a year ago. Odd that US is hyping an invasion threat more than the actual country that would supposedly be invaded" / Twitter

But it's good for cable ratings and increasing our bloated defense budget. Do you think warmongers actually care about the people of Ukraine?

 

In regards to 1, you engage in stereotypes and project them on others. When those of us who look at Putin's behaviour do so, of course we do not do so from his perspective. Many Russians do not either. Saying we do not understand Putin's mentality and expressing it as being the collective mentality of all Russians is nonsensical. Many Russians disagree with Putin. You stereotype all Russians and Americans as having common mentalities. That is your projection. Putin reflects Putin and not Russia. Russia is the Russian people not Putin. Some agree with him some do not.

Next are you concerned about missiles or are you concerned over the fact that internal Putin policies have failed the nation and he is petrified of more and more nations not operating under his control? His entire Balkan empire left him. All his former Balkan puppet states do all their trade now with the EU and China. He just lost control of Kazakistan. His empire outside Russia has crumbled. Armenia? Belorus? Really?

Your boy Putin is pissing his pants that as beligerent as he has tried to be its achieved nothing for him in Europe and he achieved nothing in Syria or with China. He has turned his state into a dependent second level colony feeding all its gas and oil to China at far less prices than he could selling it to Europe. His obsession with Nato is a smoke screen for his hear the independence from former Warsaw Pact nations might lead to an overthrow of himself and the elite circle of Russian mob he is embedded with who are completely alienated from the masses of his country and run them no different than the Czar once did.

He is afraid of his own people revolting against him.

Finally America didn't demonize Putin. He promotes himself every chance he gets as a beligerent tough guy. He fights with everyone. He over compensates. If ever a foreign policy was attached to penis anxiety is Putin and his so called mentality.

For the last 4 years by he way the had a President with small hands as well, who performed oral sex on Vlad in public any chance he had. What planet have you been on. You didn't hear all that gurgling from Trump? Where were you?

Trump supporters glorified Putin as a model leader and still do and want Trump to be just like him only with bigger hands. Its Europeans particularly those living next door to him and who survived Russian occupation who see him as a Nazi thug. Its his own people that demonize him.

 

I spoke about the mentality of Russians, as a people, there is no mentality of a single person: me, you, Putin. You argue that the Russians capture other peoples. It was assimilation and not destruction, as in American Istria. You, as an American, do not see the difference, and consider Russian villains from your own point of view.

 

I don't believe this is a careful analysis or a accurate comparison.

We went into Iraq with the full intent of conquering the country including their full armed forces in a couple weeks.

And, 100,000 is about half the Ukrainian forces, and there is no indication that Russia wouldn't add more. Plus, troop count is not a full analysis of military capability.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...-floats-deal-to-limit-missiles-and-war-games/

In 2019, Trump voided our treaty with Russia that limited missiles in Eastern Europe.

In these talks, the issue of Eastern European military presence is being discussed.

I would need more to give the Yeltsin meetings the meaning you seem to imply. There ARE those who talk of Siberian independence - and I do NOT mean Amerians. I mean Siberians.

It looks pretty unlikely to me, as how could it be divided such that Russian maintains a Pacific Coast presence, the oil is divided reasonably, the food for Siberia issue is resolved, the many border security issues are resolved, etc.

 

I'm well aware many act like jackasses even if they're not crooks. Some are both.

 

True.

Some are like Pres. Kennedy. And, that went on for a LOT longer than the Clinton/Lewinski thing.

Our view of these is skewed by politics. Republicans hated Clinton and couldn't find anything else wrong with him. So, they used our federal government to go after his private life.

Then, they whine about Trump being examined for his many clear abuses of power, including payoffs for women to keep quiet!

This isn't a matter of moral standard AT ALL. Maybe it SHOULD be, but it sure as hell isn't.

 

People in Eastern Europe signed up for NATO as soon as they could.

Genie: "You have three wishes. Use them wisely."

Pole: "I would like the same wish three times--a war between Russia and China that starts in Minsk, Belarus, rages all the way to Beijing then all the way back to Minsk,"

Genie: "But why three times?"

Pole: "Easy. I figure the battle would go through Moscow six times."​

 

Politics is a blood sport.

 

It does not HAVE to be............ but it has become that way........and it is not only ugly.........but detracts from what politicians and gov't should be doing......so getting anything actually achieved is almost impossible. When power is the main objective.......... yes...it is truly a blood sort.

 

True.

It would be so much better if some percent of politics considered the people who voted for these politicians.

 

Oh really? Is that why Soros wrote 2 scathing letters to the EU to clamp down on Hungary and Poland when they objected to pressure? When Brussels didn't clamp down, Soros said that they'll have to start indebting the individual countries instead of the EU. Sounds like a lot of control to me.

And if Lenin and the Bolsheviks didn't exist, there wouldn't have been a Soviet takeover of Russia so that there wouldn't have been a need for Nato..

You're right, so why didn't anyone tell that to Ukraine when it invaded and occupied Crimea in 1995?

That's because Zalensky has now become a Putin asset like Trump and Tucker Carlson.. WOW! Putin is a real genius. How did he get the president of the country that Russia is going to invade to become his asset? (Do you think it might be witchcraft?)

There were CIA agents embedded with the terrorists in Chechnya during the war. When Putin told Bush, his response was: "We can do whatever we want." Putin then said: "One does not work with terrorists." Two weeks later 911 happened.

Years later when the Chechnyans celebrated Putin's birthday, they referred to Russia as 'Mother Russia'.



How American advisors helped Yeltsin win.

 

Polish caption - the world without problems:



This is for your Polish joke.

 

Strait named after Stalin. This is the strait between Canada and Mexico. Also an old joke by Comrade Kurchatov. Unlike Poland, this is only part of the joke.

 

I had been looking for a serious thread on this topic, but have found mostly bluster, thus far. So I will put here, my own impression of the situation for you all, of various attitudes towards it, & include some comments meant for individuals, above. First off, absolutely no political or diplomatic expert-- including Putin, or the NATO leaders-- expects us to go to war with Russia, to protect Ukraine, so fmw, your 2nd comment is off the mark; I would add that, even if he wanted to, Biden could not bring us to war without the approval of Congress (the authorization that has been used in the Middle East has no bearing, here; and one would be hard-pressed to make the case that this is something of great & imminent harm to the U.S.). As for fmw's other suggestion, there are something like 30 nation's in NATO, few if any of which are ready to admit Ukraine, at present. There are conditions for admittance (one of which being the state of its political democracy), which the fledgling Ukrainian democracy is far from fulfilling. It is typical for it to take decades for countries to gain admittance, and Ukraine is certainly no exception.

Moving on to SouthernFried87, I find your trying to make this about Trump, woefully off-base. If you don't believe Putin would be running this same operation, with Trump at our helm, you are terribly deluded. In fact, because of the disunity among our allies, promoted by our prior president, Putin would be in a better position, if Trump were still leader of the U.S. And Biden is not involved in a pissing contest, with Putin. He is standing up to a bully, who has show his colors in Crimea & Georgia (and I would not be surprised if, at the time, you were calling Obama a wimp, for not doing more to thwart Putin). The world (or at least Europe & the West) has rejected the former, war-filled model, of countries taking over their neighbors. If we did not respond, it should be plain to see, that would only be seen by Putin as weakness, and encourage more of the same. Overall, then, Biden seems to be doing as well as could be expected, under the circumstances (with Germany's new government reluctant to upset the gas-supplier which they have so come to rely upon). Still, it is impossible to know, for sure, how things are going, because of the conflicting reports about European negotiations.

Now, to the meat of my perspective. One does not move 100 thousand troops to another country's border, then simply remove them, without getting something substantial, in concession. Yet, Putin must have known that his demands to prohibit Ukraine from joining NATO, would never have been agreed to. Yet, I think Putin would much prefer to achieve his goals without a war with Ukraine. Though I have little doubt that Russia would triumph, this would require its leaving a SUBSTANTIAL occupation force behind; Ukraine is about the size of France, and would certainly resist Russia's occupation.

So what ARE Putin's goals? I believe his top concern, is maintaining his own position. Therefore, I see the thing he most fears, being any potential, citizen uprising against him. And for Ukraine, so closely associated with Russia, to turn itself Westward and then become a prosperous, free society-- the dashed dream of so many of the Russian people-- would be an example that Putin dares not risk being seen, by his own populace.

He may just be feeling overly-lucky, because of how things panned out withTrump, but my guess is that Putin's hope (which he has been working to arrange), is for a coup, in which Zalensky will be replaced by someone more favorably-disposed toward Russia, like Ukraine's last, corrupt leader. Exactly this idea has been reported and, seeming the best-case scenario for Putin, it rings of truth.

This plan would be greatly aided by the Ukrainian citizenry being thrown into fear & panic, over the intimidating Russian military presence. So, I am impressed with how coolly Zalensky, a former entertainer, with no political experience, has played his unenviable hand. At home, he has basically ignored the troop buildup, and reports are that the Ukraineans are steady in facing the prospects, saying that they have already been at war, in their own country, for several years. So, Putin may well need to at least begin an invasion, in an attempt to create the chaos that would give some cover for his aspiring, Ukranian usurper-crony.

 

The US exercises "suzerainty" over Europe, meaning it controls its foreign policies and alliances. The US is, after all, the self-styled "leader of the free [sic] world". When necessary, it has marginalized and put those who didn't want to march to its tune in their place. ("Freedom fries" anyone?). During the cold war, it even interfered directly and indirectly in theitr domestic politics to make sure the "commies" wouldn't win.

So? If you didn't have a nose, you couldn't wear glasses either. Whatever factors helped or even led to NATO and American suzerainty over (Western) Europe, the Americans and their vested interests grew to like it, became addicted to it, and not only they don't want to give it up, having won the Cold War, see it their right to extend it now to more and more places in Eastern Europe too.

No: What on earth are you going on about? I was referring specifically to a group of Russo-American posters in this forum who are big Trump cheerleaders, who encouraged his "white nationalism", who supported his "maximum pressure" campaign against Iran and his wholesale turnover of US polices viz a viz Israel to pro Israeli oligarchs (whether American, Israeli or Russian) in the misguided belief that the vested interest the American empire and Ponzi scheme would give up on having Russia as an adversary. Nothing you wrote made any sense in response to what I had said.