Should the Church change to reflect modern society?

Tell that to these guys:

6.1 Birds
6.1.1 Black swans
6.1.2 Gulls
6.1.3 Ibises
6.1.4 Mallards
6.1.5 Penguins
6.1.6 Vultures
6.1.7 Pigeons
6.2 Mammals
6.2.1 Amazon Dolphin
6.2.2 American Bison
6.2.3 Bonobo and other apes
6.2.4 Bottlenose dolphins
6.2.5 Elephants
6.2.6 Giraffes
6.2.7 Monkeys
6.2.8 Japanese macaque
6.2.9 Lions
6.2.10 Polecat
6.2.11 Sheep
6.2.12 Spotted Hyena
6.3 Others
6.3.1 Lizards
6.3.2 Insects
6.3.2.1 Dragonflies
6.3.2.2 Fruit flies
6.3.2.3 Bed bugs

 

Oh, I overlooked that post indeed. Sorry for that.

As for its content: I’m sad about what happened to your friend, but certainly you must be aware that there is homosexuality that is not linked to abuse and coercive sexual behaviour. I was explicitly talking about “consensual homosexual acts between two people who love each other”. Like in the relationship of a friend of mine who recently got engaged to her long-term girl-friend. The two are the perfect match and I could not be happier for them having found each other.

What shocked me a bit in your post, was this statement “Guess I stepped on your 'sloppy agape' version of 'modern' Christianity?! “ I may be wrong, but do I detect a disdain for agape, which is after all the greatest Christian virtue of all (1. Cor. 13)? What I’m trying to put to you is that if I have agape for my homosexual brothers and sisters I will respect the eros in their loving and caring relationships as much as I respect the eros in my own loving and caring heterosexual relationship. There’s nothing sloppy about that.

As for your statement that “outrageous defensiveness usually comes from deep-seated guilt with no scriptural verbiage to stand on.”: The outrageous defensiveness is entirely on your side . You are the one who keeps ignoring the scriptural verbiage I gave you and keep trying to turn what could be an amicable discussion amongst brothers and sisters in Christ into a mud-slinging contest. It may either be that you are just generally plighted with a choleric character, or that I struck a nerve. Maybe deep down you do realize that – as seems to be the case with many but not all Christians - your apparent aversion against homosexuality is more based on common worldly bigotry than on a truly Christian spirit.

Of course I may have misread you concerning that aversion. In that case our whole discussion was pointless. It’s great to hear that you support same sex civil partnerships and that you didn’t vote against them because they violate your moral beliefs, as this post might suggest http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...ge-reflect-modern-society.html#post1062398115 Back in the day I voted for them, because of my moral beliefs.

I'm sorry, if I inadvertedly insulted you. That was not my intention when I gave you the advice to search your heart. Rest assured that I didn't purposely ignore your post. As for my pants: they are exactly where they should be covering my privates just fine.

That's very kind of you, brother. I forgive you, too.

 

Modern science informs us that homosexuality is natural. A lot of modern theologians make a good case for consensual homosexual activity in a loving stable homosexual relationship being neither immoral nor sinful.

 

Yeah, 'pick & chose' Christianity would water it down to the to the level of the secular religion of Atheism..which is what those who have 'their truths' and 'their pet devices' would enjoy...I like to refer to it as the "Religion of Convenience, with no responsibility for one's actions, self-ignorant of any absolute truths, and living a life of denial where "it's all good." You might want to try Thailand for that....!

 

Christianity has been "Watered Down" from the day is was created. Each time a new interpretation of text takes place, one gospel or another is removed, a new denomination branches off, or people like you decide to read your own ideas into what some guy wrote many years ago it becomes dilluted.
To pretend (and to believe you must) that what you understand today is what was written down by hundreds of people over the centuries is complete fantasy. People have played the "Pick and Choose" game ever since someone coined the term Yahweh.....one need only look at the council of Nicaea to see the obvious.

 

I can see why ppl have deep-seated feelings on this issue, as I lost a good friend who entrusted me with his internal strife, and I put NO guilt upon him during our discussions, nor did the revelation affect our friendship.

I do believe in "loving the sinner but not the sin." The same for heterosexuals.

Agape is called the 'God kind of love' as it is a selfless, giving love. But God is both Love as well as being Just, not being a respecter of persons in the process. That is why knowing my friend, regardless of those who would judge him after his death for just the suicide (as I never exposed our conversations), I have no doubt on where he would end up as a 'sincere' follower of Jesus words.

But I 'dug' you on the "Sloppy Agape' version of 'modern Christianity" as not to minimize the responsibility of ppl for their actions, as in 'carte blanche' Christianity. There are standards, but there is also grace to those who 'miss the mark' and violate the standards.

That is why I dont like to give my 'opinion' on "Total Creation Restoration" to the carnally minded, as they will try to use my words as an excuse to go out and sin, knowing that "yeah, may spend a little time (merely 'eons) separated from God but will be there when all is said & done!" It can be dangerous and may border on heretical also.

Btw, I have met 3 socially liberal Christians on this forum who had a good knowledge of the scriptures, and who were all 3 women. Hmmmmmmm...maybe Paul was right?!

 

And so YOUR solution to all of civilizations ills is...unrestricted Hedonism? As in "It's all good!"

 

Sorry - double post.

 

Should the Church change to reflect modern society?

I think that looking into the possibilities of Christianity might be an idea - no guns, no greed, no foreign wars or 'crusades', no racism, no bullying of homosexual persons, socialism, stuff like that. Might go down well - it did before.

 

It's called "The Millennium," as God ordained...sorry, man will never be able to create "his own' Utopia on this earth..."Where have all the flowers gone... long time passing..."

As far as 'religion, one could point to the NT scripture that says, "When the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with."

 

Can't see any major difficulty about any of it myself. We don't HAVE to live in nutty systems.

 

I'm trying to imagine you Iolo as a 'Hippie:' flowers in your hair, peace sign, sandals, messiah look with full beard....

 

Nah - just an old working-class socialist from the Rhondda me. We learned the hard way.

 

Had a NatGeo program on the series Cradle of the Gods,' that talked about the 12000 yo civilization in SW Turkey(the north of the Fertile Crescent) with a vast no. of stone circles with carved monoliths and detailed animals sculpted on them that was built during the "Stone Age," 4000 yrs older than Stonehenge. They had to cut, sculpt, and move 20 tons blocks with nothing more than stone tools & trees.

But the revelation of this vast complex on stone circles, and surrounding small towns was:

The cycle from our present knowledge of history:

Farming>>>Settlement>>>Religion>>>Temple>>>Cities


But this ancient hunter-gatherer civilization appeared to be:

Settlement>>>Religion>>>Temple>>>Farming>>>Cities

Notice that 'Religion' & temple building were key parts of all of the original civilizations in keeping ppl in unity and together. This oldest civilization known to date put religion "first" in their development!

And so, in this present day world, what part does religion play in modern civilization? It was very important 'then;' but what about "now?' Can the world live 'civilized' w/o religion...or is a 'Global religion' needed? Apparently, the AntiChrist says "Yes?
!!"

 

Why did all the ancients civilizations start out with a religion? Partially to explain their environment; but also it was 'placed in man's genetics' per:

Solomon who is credited in writing Eccl with his wisdom said:

Ecclesiastes 3:11
11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

 

...nope....my solution is being an Agnostic.

I do not know if there is a God....but I do hope that if there is, it would not make a fool of itself and anyone associated with it. If by chance it did.....I'm fine without it.

 

The reqmt for all of the religions is to have 'faith.' Faith in the NT Christianity is per, "Every man has been given the measure of faith [as unto salvation]" and "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God " (b4 the written & printed word, or could also be said that Faith comes by reading (& meditating) on the word...)

And so an Agnostic has 'no faith,' and fails following any g(G)od(s)....and so they're/you're into "Blind Hope" if you happen to get caught with your 'eternal pants' down?!

I'd stay clear of Vegas if I were you...

 

As an Agnostic, I will clearly state I have no faith....in Man, and your Bibles were obviously written by them, changed by them, warped by them, printed by them, published by them, sold by them, put into hotel drawers by them, burned by them, pushed by them, interpreted by them, and to this day torn apart by them depending on what each man decides it is supposed to say.

If at some point these "Men" manage to decide what "God" actually meant, said, implied, hinted at, signed, spewed, or mentally implanted they could possibly have an effect on my understanding. As it is...there are way to many versions of these books for me to bother with, and far too many whining followers for me to cypher through.

Until you guys get your story straight...it makes no sense to me.

 

Oh....and Karma still works in Vegas....being a good man does not require Jesus.

 

And so you find no spiritual nuggets of truth in the scriptures from cover to cover?

For I dont look at the personalities of the men who wrote them, but the 'inspiration' in their msgs and the stories with morals and teaching particular truths.

I see the message in the Bible, looking from cover-to-cover as: fallen man, cannot save himself from himself, needed a Savior on his behalf, who was prepared from the 'foundations of the world' by a God & Father who knew man's free-will frailties, and then the prophets who pointed to the coming of the Savior (another 'man' who could identify with those He was to bring salvation), and that man came with the Word of God and as an obedient servant, obedient to dying on a cross with humiliation, and then did resurrect being the 1st of many Sons, leaving behind the Holy Spirit as the comforter & teacher for His Church.....that's the digest of the harmony of the scriptures en total, w/o focusing of allegories or perceived errors in individual scriptures.

This is the way I have read it & studied it, and the whole makes sense to me....a fallen & imperfect man.

 

Excellent example of my point, at no point did I state I had not gained from these scriptures. I have gained from the old and new Testaments, The Qu'ran, the Vedas, the book of Mormon, Scientology, the Watchtower......etc.

I simply understand what they are, and accept the limitations of the people who created them. I see all of these spiritual texts as chapters in an incomplete textbook of growth. None above the other as they contain much the same Data...though stated differently. As stated , I do not claim to know the answers...yet I will never stop looking.

I just do not take kindly to someone telling me they do and thus I am wrong, particularly when they make it clear they have decided to stop looking.

 

I reached a point in my life where I made a decision to read the Bible cover-to-cover and find out for myself what was in it--not get it 2nd hand from men.

They're were some 'fantastic' stories in there that I put on the shelf and continued on reading/studying. Jesus referred to 2 of those stories briefly, and not commenting on their inerrancy, but as: 1) "as it was in the days of Noah;" indicating peace on earth until the end-time tribulation; 2) "and" the only sign given will be the sign of Jonah;" indicating His 3 days in the earth and then coming forth in His resurrection. These were 'spiritual' in their msg and didnt have to be actual in their events.

But I as you had to 'settle' the scriptures, using one-at-a-time as I came across them. And having a science degree, I had to question, research, meditate, and look for harmony between the 'spiritual msg' in the scriptures and what we have found out from science.

I have a peace about what I now 'see' in the scriptures, but as you, am still seeking truths; as a 'truth seeker' shall be rewarded at some time if one continues to seek...which you have so described yourself as continuing to do.

That's about all one can do, as I cannot voluntarily believe a lie being a truth seeker, and so must continue on my journey in this life, with the feeling of being on the right track, but not knowing the all.

As God has 'mysteries, some will be revealed during their time; and some wont until the end; as I said earlier, as scripture says, "As when the perfect comes....until then, we will only know in part" (my para).

You have the right attitude and I wish you God's best on 'your' journey...OD

 

I agree. But if Christianity has changes so much, my question would be why? Did God make a mistake or is it the many interpretations of man are more to blame? Perhaps something else?

 

There is a big difference between those animals and humans and that is humans are hold to a higher standard. But if you like to emulate those animals that is ok it is your free will.

 

Do you believe in sin? If not then why do you need legislation for?