Theists- Would you commit an evil act if God ordered you to?

why wouldn't they, they would get included in the bible if God told them to kill their son and latter said.. just kidding

 

Naturally, I'm referring to the "God of the Bible" that Christians and Jews believe in and worship.

 

Abraham is supposed to be this "hero" of Judeo-Christianity...but look at his record-

1. His wife seems infertile...but he has to have an heir.

2. So he rapes the maid....to produce Ishmael...and is happy as pig in slop.

3. Sarah gets pregnant and she orders him to kick the maid out of the tribe and abandon his own son....and he promptly does.

4. God, the "most loving and merciful", tells him he has to kill his other son...and Abraham complies. Then at the last moment God says "Kidding! Kidding! I was just kidding...about killing your son"....and Abraham say "Oh, God....you merry prankster" and founds a religion worshipping that God.

Ol' Abe was a nut....or atleast an utter wimp who does all manner of evil if his wife or "God" tell him to.

 

That would be the same God, as mine, but before you go rushing off to the Old Testament keep in mind that I believe most of the stories there to be simply teaching tools not actual History. So where does Jesus ever suggest anyone ever do something like what you suggested?

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Correct, but those that do not really know or have studied the major Religions do not grasp that fact.

 

I'm not questioning the question. I'm sincerely intrigued.

 

then why did god think he was great?

 

I would do exactly as I'd do if ANYONE or ANYTHING commanded me to carry out evil. refuse to do it. I'd prefer to die myself than to kill someone who wasn't about to kill me. I'm astonished that you (or anyone) would actually consider their own hide more important than those of the individuals you're commanded to visit violence upon.

I'm also astonished that Christianity has the 'power' to reduce otherwise good people to this level of moral dessication.

 

The story is actually about how the crazy old coot sold his soul for personal fame and fortune. Contrast it to the story in Matthew chapter 4 about Satan tempting Jesus.

 

Very few people really believe in the prevailing religious fairy tales. They just go along to get along and to stay out of trouble with the nut cases. Islam is a peer pressure religion. Therefore people in places where it's the rule don't have the option to opt out and do their own thing. They have to conform even if they think the whole thing is silly.

Christians get a better break, especially in the big cities because there's no one forcing them to put on public displays of religion, unless they happen to be politicians and have to go through the motions in order to get votes. A guy can be a major crook and overall scumbag but as long he claims to be a Christian the sheep will make excuses for his behavior. But if he said that religion is just BS and that he's an atheist they would burn him at the stake.

 

and this 'better break' has only come about VERY recently. in some places it's still not available, though the punishment is social shunning rather than death.

for the record, I'd call being railroaded by passive aggressive tactics to participate (via silent reverence) when someone says 'grace' before dinner is one of these public displays. I don't recall EVER being asked by Christians (always outnumbered, but still demanding dominance) I've shared meals with if any minded them saying grace. much less been told "please don't feel obliged to sit through this". that's not to say all Christians I know impose their rituals on others unasked - some would never do so while there are non-believers present. I'm talking of those who insist on grace no matter who's present - these people never ask first. it's like suddenly jumping on to the table and doing a chicken dance, and demanding everyone silently revere your actions. (*)(*)(*)(*)ing mental, and absolutely terrible manners.

 

Theoretically people shouldn't even pray in church if they want to observe Matthew 6:6.

 

Maybe because Abraham's story mirrors God's?

(or naturally...it is Abraham and his descendents trying to make it seem that way)

 

Why should they hide or not do their religious practices when you are present? You are sharing a table with them not necessarily owning the table, why is your personal beliefs so much more important than theirs that they should not practice their rituals in your presence? I fully understand and applaud your willingness not to be pressured into doing something you do not believe in, but at the same time you applying pressure onto others to conform to your standards is just as wrong in a free society. Feel free not to be silent while they say grace, or sit, or leave or do what you want, it is a free country. But the price of freedom is also allowing others to practice that freedom even when you do not approve. If some guy always stands up and say four cuss words before eating every meal he can. I can also choose not to eat with him. That is freedom.

 

First Jehovah God or even Jesus wouldn't tell their people to do it just because. And they wouldn't do it in our day anyway. Because the laws are far different today then it was in the days of old. Those men were much more closer to perfection than we are today. So those today who does ANYTHING wicked in the name of Jesus. It's NOT Jesus who's telling them to do so. honestly I don't have it in my heart to hurt anyone especially a child. As for morals, I’m an imperfect person who once indulged in actions that Jehovah God and Jesus didn't approve of. I've since reframed from some. Yet still fighting to remove myself from others. peace

 

It's always interesting to read these new age assumptions of the happenings in a very different time. I find it interesting to watch that show "Naked and Afraid". That has been very insightful, especially the episode when both participants said they were now very aware of the ability to cannibalize another human. Wants, needs, and life in general was vastly different than anything any of us could even imagine. But even outside of that, much like our children don't know our reasons for guiding them as we do, we do not understand the reasons for the Lord to guide us as He does, we just have faith... and thankfully Jesus.

 

you managed to miss the point. no one is demanding that they hide. what is being asked for is consideration for those present, if you insist on doing something potentially weird and very personal in a public setting. it's really a simple matter of doing it before everyone else sits down, not doing it at all (like those Christians I know with good manners), or doing it silently and discretely. even if that's too much for you, the very least you can do is ASK first if the people present are okay with you doing something so socially awkward.

what you've also failed to acknowledge (perhaps your a grace imposer yourself, so have never thought about how this comes across. if so, I urge you to consider how you'd feel if the following was done in your presence in the name of satan), is that what these people impose along with their grace is a pronounced dominance and self-righteousness, making it impossible to demure openly without casting said folk into something like deep indignation. they behave as though it's perfectly usual to beseech supernatural beings at meal times, and it's only right that everyone sit silently and respectfully, heads bowed, throughout the ritual. it doesn't seem to occur to them ... ever ... that it's incredibly poor manners. not poor manners to actually say grace, but poor manners to impose grace.

as I said, if you're unsure of the validity of my complaint, imagine yourself being imposed upon (under threat of possible irreconcilable hostilities) to be compliant and reverent during a satanic ritual. no one asks first if you're okay with it, they just DO it.

 

God is the source of good. No evil comes from Him.

 

Funny to see somebody curse and critique manners in the same sentence.

Do you get this upset at people having a 30 second conversation without your involvement... say about a friend you do not know?

 

While I agree if they gave an order it would be for a purpose, I cannot say that they would not do it. How can you be so sure when God is in essence unknowable. It is not like it would be the first time God has asked of us something that we today would see as amoral. Scripture has many instances of God doing or demanding things that to us may seem, I dare say horrible. You can point to Egypts first born, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, or any of the deaths of enemies of the Israelites. Remember the premise of the question is you KNOW for a fact it is God telling you to do something. So your Lord and Savior has given a command you dislike. He gave one to Moses even though he knew the Pharaoh would say no. Was Moses wrong to unleash the plague or was he right?

The reason I am going forward with this is because I may not agree with the point of the discussion from Gorns perspective, but it is still in a way a very important thing to consider. We as followers of any deity have invested massive amounts of power to the divine. But have we really done so or do we but say so and then when the tough moments come back away from it? When asked do we deny Christ three times in a night?

 

It seems to me that if someone wants to pray before dinner in mixed (belief) company, they should do so silently. That's polite and respectful. Why is there a need to do so out loud, while every one else waits for you to finish? Isn't that just the tiniest bit rude?

It's not a big deal -- I've sat politely through my share of dinner prayers. But why is the onus on ME to politely sit through it, rather than on THEM to politely not impose on the rest of us?

 

Your Christian friends threaten you with irreconcilable hostilities during grace? Throw it up on YouTube and hook us up... that sounds interesting, no wonder you have such animosity toward Christians.

 

I have too in my non-believer years, it never bothered me. I still don't say grace, in fact I had breakfast with my pastor this morning and dove right in pre-grace. Is 30 seconds of prayer really imposing? Sounds like personal issues are at play to me.

 

I have been in situations strangely similar to your last one actually during a pagan werdding that i went too (without knowing what it was). I was not comfortable BUT at the same time there was no reason for others to make me comfortable or even care about said comfort. (Fact is free speech is very uncomfortable) So I was there and a friend was getting married by a priestess and a priest of some strange wiccan religion. What did I do being that the things they were doing was going directly against my religion and faith? Well I sat down next to another friend and watched respectfully. Why, because it was a friends wedding and I agreed to come. But I could have left if I wanted to they did not force me to stay or contribute. They did not FORCE their wedding upon me I came of my own free will.

 

Of course it is. It's a minor imposition, but it IS an imposition. Just like it's an imposition when you click on a video and are forced to watch a 30-second ad before the video starts.

And there's no need for it, as silent prayer is just as effective -- unless your purpose is to showboat or proselytize the other diners.

To be clear, prayer doesn't make me uncomfortable. I belong to a church (for my wife's sake, and so my children can learn about religion from the inside). I sit politely through entire services, week after week. I've even helped teach Sunday school.

But I think believers need to realize that their religious rituals can be an imposition on others, and have the politeness to not impose if possible.

 

Rude yes, but so what, rudeness is protected speech. Now the onus is not on you to sit through it, you can ask them not to or you can leave the table or just ignore them and start eating. It really depends on how powerfully you feel on it. They feel a powerful need to to pray and be rude (yes it is by the way you should consider your fellow diners feelings). Both of you can exercise your rights, aint this country great?!