Three problems with George Zimmerman’s self-defense claims

Let's talk about this situation differently. Instead of it happening in a gated suburban community amongst the upper middle class, let's play this situation out in a Los Angelos gang infested area.

Let's say a half hispanic man saw a black man in a hoodie at night walking along in "his" gangs neighborhood. He follows the man for awhile, then gets out of the car to confront him. The black man, who, by all legal accounts, had every right to be there, is defiant and tries to intimidate the hispanic man at his own game of intimidation. A fight breaks out (it doesn't matter who started it) and the hispanic man shoots the other man.

In a gang violence situation, does it matter who shot who or who started it?

Isn't the shooter guilty of murder?

What right did he have defending a sidewalk that isn't actually his property?

What gives Zimmerman the right (I know, I know, neighborhood watch and all) intimidate an unarmed, smaller man by slowly following him, while armed, in his truck after hours?

What gives Zimmerman the right to get out of the truck when he is clearly suspicious of the person (as known by the police recordings)?

If two gang members get in a fight and one ends up dead, does it matter who started it?

Why is there a different standard "just" because its the suburbs and a gated community. The actions of Zimmerman were wrong, racial difference and actions aside.

I can guarantee you this, had Zimmerman been black and Martin been black, every conservative on this site would be greasing up their electric chair for Zimmerman. No doubt about it.

 

My law firm would get him off on self-defense. Your scenario happens every day. For $15k we could get a non-custodial disposition on that case.

 

Holy mackerel, where do I begin with this load of BS?! If your gang member had his life threatened and shot the aggressor AND the state has self defense laws, nothing would happen, one gang member will walk, even if the gun was illegal. This happens on "The First 48". One gang member shoots another in self defense and get's let go on the MURDER/MANSLAUGHTER charge, but get's charged with an illegal weapon.

 

I am pretty sure Zimmerman is not a gang member, I cant say the same for TM. What happens if the jewlery found on TM and photographed comes back as something stolen from one of the home invasions in the area? Can we please stop acting like TM was killed based on his skin color?

 

So you change all the circumstances which justify the event, and try to extrapolate that into a circumstance which doesn't justify the event?

WTF is wrong with you?

Let's talk about this situation differently. Instead of it happening in a gated suburban community amongst the upper middle class; instead of it happening in a Los Angelos gang infested area, let's play this situation out on the Moon.

There's Zimmerman, and Martin walking. They walk two steps, and both die of the suffocation and pressure which comes from being in a vacuum in space.

My God. Sue NASA - they clearly had to be to blame.

 

It matters very much who started it. Not intimidation, assault. What justifies breaking a guys nose, knocking him to the ground then jumping on top of him and continuing to attack him?

Of course it does.

Not if the guy who got shot breaks the shooters nose, knocking him to the ground then jumping on top of him and continuing to attack him.

He wasn't defending the "sidewalk", he was being viciously physically attacked.

There had been 8 burglaries in 14 or 15 months in Twin Lakes prior to the incident.

Itzcoatl Ocampo was followed by a brave citizen and captured by Police with the information provided by the following citizen after Ocampo allegedly committed a series of brutal murders.

Absolutely.

You haven proven there IS a different standard.

Only to you.

 

What justifies a guy WITH A GUN, getting out of a car to confront an innocent person walking down the sidewalk? DO ANY OF YOU HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THIS?

ANYONE???????????

 

You'll need to prove Zimmerman was brandishing the gun and intended to confront the guy first. He lost sight of Martin and got out to see where he went when he couldn't locate him that's when Martin jumped him, broke his nose knocking Zimmerman to the ground, then jumped on top of him continuing the attack.

Martin was walking where you couldn't drive a car.



Retreat of Twin Lakes Gated community Map

Purple Arrow - Main Entrance
Dark Blue Oval - Clubhouse
Orange X - 2831 Retreat view circle address
Yellow X - approximate location in backyards where Trayvon body was
Light blue X - Approximate location where his father was living
Red arrow - Back entrance

 

No, I'm not saying "anytime a white person shoots a black person, it is presumed to be racial." Most of the time, it's not. The facts of the specific case matter.

What I was trying to say is that the known facts in this case support the idea that the only reason Zimmerman found Martin suspicious is because he was an unknown black guy. Whatever else happened afterwards, *that* is what led to the confrontation, and that is why Martin is dead.

If Martin attacked Zimmerman after being confronted, he contributed to his own fate. But it all began when Zimmerman decided to confront someone for being black.

As more facts come out, that picture may change. But keep in mind that the only real evidence we have of what was said, when it was said, and where is from Zimmerman, who is clearly self-interested.

Zimmerman's story has changed somewhat over time. But he now says he was attacked from behind while walking back to his vehicle after losing track of Martin. This doesn't make a lot of sense on the face of it. He offers no motive for Martin to attack him. He doesn't explain how Martin could sneak up on him. He doesn't explain why Martin's body ends up about 1/4 mile from Zimmerman's vehicle. If that was *on the way back* from the site of the initial confrontation, how far away was the initial confrontation?

Details of the confrontation are scarce, too. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that he walked up to Martin and said, "Hey, n-----, where do you think you're going?" Would anyone really fault Martin for punching him?

So the fact that they fought isn't conclusive; Zimmerman's version of events is far from conclusive.

All we really know is that Zimmerman got out of his car when he didn't have to, confronted Martin when he didn't have to, and ended up shooting Martin dead.

Blaming Martin for that sequence of events strikes me as misguided.

 

You are purposefully forgetting something here. Martin didn't have to assault Zimmerman did he?

 

#1, we only have Zimmerman's word that that's the case. What if Zimmerman assaulted Martin first, but ended up getting his butt whupped?

#2, you don't know what might have provoked Martin. The post to which you replied contained a hypothetical situation in which it would be understandable for Martin to take a swing at Zimmerman.

 

Martin was never descibed as pounding Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. The statement was that he was simply on top of Zimmermann and the incident happened in the grass which is why Zimmermann had a wet shirt.
If Zimmermann was on the ground in such a way as he felt he was at a disadvantage, you would expect him to use his legs and fist to get Martin off of him. Considering Zimmermann was in fight mode prior to contact, you would think he would react better if per say the person he was following were to attempt a haymaker.
Being a 5'11 150 pound teen when I was younger, the last thing I wanted was close combat with anyone. Especially a person with larger mass as I knew the fight would be over. Now 5'11 215, I know that skinny me would have been dominated by mature me.

 

I dont expect anyone to fight any way or use his legs, how does anyone know what they would do, its easier to sit and analyze but unless its you and you are in the moment, you have no idea what anyone could do. Zimmermans nose was also broken, why wouldn't you factor that in, that could cause confusion as well. And he was "simply" on top Zimmerman? Unacceptable in any shape or form.

 

No reason for him to do that. he was a security guard on duty. Security guards' jobs are to Observe & Report. You can't do either of those if you let a suspect out of your sight. Zimmerman did the right thing by following Martin. The 911 operator did the wrong thing by interjecting ignorant "advice".

 

Last reports I heard from witnesses was that Martin WAS pounding Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. If you have a source that disputes that, let's hear it.

I also know of no evidence that Zimmerman was "in a fight mode", at any time at all. Where does that come from ?

As for Martin's weight, I don't know the facts on that. Do you ? Source ? Link ? Note that size and weight is irrelavant. All that matters in self-defense case is who is the attacker, and who is being attacked.

 

This absurd article by Ryan Witt of the San Francisco Examiner ought to get him fired from his job, and you sure don't get any credits for using it here.

Ryan Witt doesn't seem to understand basic American law. In the USA, an accused person is INNOCENT until he is proven guilty by his accuser. The statement Witt makes > "Zimmerman must prove that he feared death or great bodily harm..." FALSE! Zimmerman's accusers bear the burden of proof that Zimmerman did not fear death or great bodily harm.
As for who was calling for help, multiple witnesses have said that the voice they heard on the recording calling for help was Zimmerman. Even Trayvon's father said that the voice was not Trayvon.
Wit also claims that Zimmeraman "arguably" was the original aggressor. Well, arguably would be the right word all right, since there's no evidence to support that either.
I could go on with more discrepancies in this faulty report, but suffice it to say, this attempted hacksaw job on Zimmerman is a joke, and the Examiner ought to be ashamed of themselves for printing it.

 

Understandable ? In the law of the jungle maybe. In Florida law, any unrequested touching constitutes a battery (a criminal act). Evidence coming forth indicates that's what Martin committed, which would have given Zimmerman full legal right to shoot him (with or without a stand your ground law).

 

Waiting for the police is something both of these guys should have done...and that's what I don't like about some aspects of "stand your ground"

 

That's a real stretch....almost as much as Zimmerman's friend suggesting that Zimmerman was calling Martin a "goon", and it was a term of endearment.

I think both sides are putting out great reasons to roll up those pants legs

 

Since when is it a crime to be outside your truck?

You are admitting that NO_LIMITS_N&&&A threw the first punch and that means Zimmerman was defending himself.

 

Put yourself in Martin's shoes for a minute. You're walking home from a gas station where all you did was go and get some skittles. It's nighttime, and YOU also know that there have been crimes committed in your neighborhood. Suddenly a truck starts tailing you slowly. Your only a teenager and you know that stuff happens all of the time to kids, whether they are 5'1 or 6'3. Suddenly the truck stops and this really hefty dude gets out. What do you do in that situation?

Now, we don't know what conversation went on. Normally, I run home, especially that close to my home. But maybe Zimmerman said something from the car. Maybe he identified himself as police, maybe he said something threatening (like "don't move, I've got a gun"). Maybe he just got out and didn't say anything while charging towards Martin. No matter the situation, Zimmerman was TOLD REPEATEDLY to not engage the "suspect" under any circumstances. And yet, we know that he got out of his car, while armed, at night, and ended up shooting a minor.

Why is ANY of that justified by ANYONE in their right mind?

 

Is skittles code word for "casing" houses?

 

Yeah, prove that right now.

 

So since you don't agree with the article he should be fired, ok lets see how long that takes to happen.

Now getting down to business.

Kind of hard for his accuser to do that since he murdered him.

Really, please post all these multiple witnesses that claimed that. I have read of only one Good ole Uncle Joe Oliver.

That would be the garbled 911 tape you are referring to.

Really, did Trayvon follow Zimmerman or did Zimmerman follow Martin.

Yea your right that is what it is. I just find it amazing that Trayvon didn't call 911 to report Zimmerman as "suspicious". Trayvon didn't follow and question Zimmerman. Zimmerman is walking among the living today, but Trayvon the 17 yr old dead kid is the aggressor in this whole situation.

What a joke.

 

Has anyone mentioned that Martin is reportedly 6 inches TALLER than Zimmerman?

From what I've read Martin is 6-3 while Zimmerman is only 5-9. As anyone who has ever fought hand to hand knows, unless Martin or Zimmerman were some kind of physical freaks, then this translates into a huge reach advantage for Martin, meaning Martin could pound on Zimmerman with ease while keeping away from Zimmerman's response.