Turning deserts green and COOLING the climate!

I admit that I may be terribly biased.....
but an online buddy of mine got me hooked on an alternative theory on stabilization of the climate back in 2007 that I still favor over a Carbon TAx or Cap and Trade System.

One of the reasons why I like Mr. Carl Cantrell's theory better than Mr. Al Gore's, (or frankly Mr. Gore's professor from university who gave the basic idea to him)..... is because I do NOT believe that the biggest companies will waste any time whatsoever in finding legal ways around a Carbon Tax or Cap and Trade system!!!!

But anyway..... what do you think of Mr. Carl Cantrell's basic idea that turning deserts green on a massive scale could actually begin to initiate some COOLING of our climate?

During the afternoon the sand on the Sahara may be well above one hundred degrees Farenheit.... by the next morning that same sand is quite cool...... where did the heat go?

I think it went upwards into the atmosphere so this is why I really do like Carl's basic thesis.

Carl and I had some fun with this idea back in 2007.....

My two somewhat humorous submissions for $25 million Virgin Earth Challenge.

 

I live five kms from the Atlantic Ocean and tidal waters......
plus... I often drive past Truro, N. S. and as I do so a mathematical problem
tends to cross my mind.


"If average ocean levels rose by eight to ten cms (3 or 4 inches) could high tide...
... rise by one meter in the Isthmus of Chignecto in Nova Scotia, Canada?

This question is logical because the geography of Canada's Bay of Fundy produces the world's highest tides. In my part of Nova Scotia in Guysborough County there is very little funnelling of tidal waters......... so high tide is only about one to one point five meters above low tide.

In the eastern area of the Bay of Fundy high tide levels are up by ten to fifteen meters."

Mega-scale desalination of ocean water in Australia, California, Israel, Jordan, Qatar, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia or in any other nation experiencing shortages of fresh water is really good news for the residents of the town of Truro, N. S., Canada, the City of Monton, New Brunswick, Canada as well as for Anchorage Alaska. Every cubic meter of ocean water desalinated and added to the water table of a nation experiencing water shortage is arguably the lowest cost long term solution to the threat posed by rising ocean levels that will likely be felt first along the Bay of Fundy as well as Anchorage, Alaska.





I admit that these factors could cause me to be somewhat biased toward Carl's theory.

 

Hmm, intersting idea, but I think I would have to see the results of a lot of studies to see if it is feasible at all. How much energy would be required to accomplish all of this? Would the energy costs offset the effects that the project is meant to accomplish? What plants would be grown? Where is the soil going to come from? How much energy will it take to produce and transport that soil?
Maybe this would be effective, maybe not. There could be far more efficient ways in dealing with warming. I would have to do a lot more studying to be able to make any judgements. But interesting idea anyway.

 

But... one of the biggest most immediate questions would be.....
is it possible to divert essentially the same amount of H2O out of the oceans....
as is being added to the oceans....
by the melting and cracking and sliding of ice off the land based Greenland Ice Pack, the world's glaciers and
the West Antarctic Ice Sheet if it begins to crack and slide more in the near future.


If so... then on the positive side of the balance sheet is saving all the cities the world the cost of building sea walls, dikes and massive sump pumps like the ones that New York has in its subway system.

 

I don't know about that. There is a LOT of water stored up there, and those glaciers themselves act as a mirror, reflecting away a lot of the energy that heats up our atmosphere, so the faster it disappears, the greater the effect of the positive feedback loop that is created, which will melt what is left of the ice caps faster and faster. That would be a LOT of water to divert, lol. I think as the faster the caps melt, coastal areas are doomed, but who knows? Maybe some innovation could help. But honestly, I think as the ice caps melt, deserts would probably recede anyway. The planet will adapt to the new conditions, but it will be painful for humanity, lol. Especially if you live by an ocean.

 

This may sound strange but.....
if we worked around beavers...and allowed beavers to go to town all over North America....
they could slow down the rate at which rain water ends up back in the oceans.


https://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity/howard-storm.html#a04

If that system worked here... it could well be used in other continents as well.

and

 

The amount of water needed to raise the level of an ocean is gigantic.

We don't have some other storage location for that kind of water volume.

And, this "solution" doesn't answer the problem posed by the change in reflectivity of Earth - with melting glaciers allowing Earth to warm faster.

Remember that the other of the two main reasons for rising oceans is that water expands when warmed. Simply allowing Earth to warm causes the oceans to rise.

Changing the reflectivity of Earth by allowing sea ice, tundra, glaciers, etc., to melt remains a serious issue.

 

I have read that using beaver dams in the Northwest can maintain water tables. And the conservation cost are very cheap copaired to man handling it.

 

But changing deserts to grasslands would store a lot of carbon and water.... if possible.

 

Mr Tate spams this every few weeks.

I'm not opposed to it. But, the connection to the Bay he happens to care about and the idea that this is something that nations will get together to spend on both hit me as tenuous at best.

We're failing to build ourselves an adequate electric grid and are failing at implementing the economic advantages of clean energy - advantages that would benefit the pocketbook of each American directly given today's technology.

The idea that we're going to spend fabulous dollars on some other continent in the age of Trumpian "America First" seems totally out of touch on every level from economic to political to climate science itself.

Mr. Tate has to address at least SOME of that, or it remains no more than spam, doesn't it?

 

I like to think of possibilities. But I try to be realistic. But when you talk about greening deserts you are talking big. The tremendous amount of water needed would be astronomical and watering the grass may have to be continuous for months at a time annually.The energy required to move the water would be considerable. I ain't no mathematician but cost would be considerable.

 

Yet the Israelis do it.

 

Cool.

 

Yes

Their forests and agriculture has resulted in a
"dot" of cool down among a geography or warming.

 

I once saw a picture of the border of Israel from the air. You can see the darker soil of the country.

 

I'd like to see a cite on that.

Israel certainly does a lot of desalinization, but use of that water for human and animal consumption, for commercial scale greenhouse vegetable production, etc., is not similar to watering a desert.

 

In Israel, there are businessmen making profit by intense management of each of those plots of land.

That doesn't scale up without careful attention to ALL the factors that made that land the color you saw - what soil was there in the first place, the manpower that goes into each plot, the intensive management, the financials, etc.

I'm not sayint it is "impossible". I'm saying that it is a gigantic change in many dimensions. It is NOT just water.

 

Try Google !
I have learned NOT to chase references for @WillReadmore
If you find anything contrary, Please Share.


Developing "Drip Irrigation"
Developing crops requiring less water
And sharing with Turkey and other nations interested.

Move along folks.
Nothing new here​

Moi
He ain't gonna read more but, repartee attack
Witness!

Hoards Fresh Water​

 

Of course, darker soil is usually caused by carbon in the soil. Organic matter also darkens soils. This means they are " healing" or building soil and that means less water needed because more is stored. This could extend farming into the desert especially if they have a reliable source of water. The supply of water would have to be substantial.

 

Yes.

I just don't see water as the sole issue. Agriculture is far more than pouring water on whatever substrate exists.

I do believe we could terraform northern Africa if we really decided that's something that we had to do.

I don't see the economic argument for doing that, including any argument that terraforming Africa is the most economically sound approach to climate change.

As for politics, we don't have the will to invest in our own infrastructure, let alone that of northern Africa.

It sure would be a fabulous make-work project for those living in Africa, though!

 

Have you tried planting tomatoes in SAND and giving them some water? Water is only one issue...what about top soil?

Desalination is a great technology that needs to be encouraged but I doubt it's an economical option when trying to irrigate millions of acres.

Even with top soil and water, how do you suppose those tomatoes will do in 120-150 degree sun and weather, or sub-freezing temps?

Lastly, deserts are critical to the planetary ecosystem. Those deserts +/-30 degrees from the equator have critical effects on wind and oceans and climate around the world...it would be dangerous for humans to mess with it...

 

Good points... but Geoff Lawton Ph. d. may have proven the answer to these questions by his Permaculture work in Jordan.




Greening the Desert II




Compost Building in the Desert w/ Geoff Lawton | Greening the Desert | Permaculture

 

I love this idea!!!!!

This is truly an encouraging idea because if we slow down the rate at which rain water goes back into the ocean those beavers will have positively altered the whole formula.

This alternative theory of turning deserts green does seem to be catching on more and more.



How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change | Allan Savory

 

So, yes. If you had a source of compost the size of the desert, that would be great!

I think this sizeing thing is the real root issue here.

There are desalination plants in Israel. It would be good to understand the economics and sizing info for that. For some volume of fresh water product, where are the energy costs, what are the environmental solutions for sucking up sea life, what are the solutions for disposing of volumes of super salty water (water that wiill simply sink to the bottom and kill sea life if pumped back to the ocean without engineering solutions), etc.

I really don't like this approach of "we can do it, because we're so rich" approach.

I love permaculture. If someone wants to propose compost the size of some desert, fine. But, that is not an infinite or free resource. And, these tracts of land under agricultural production require manpower.

It's time to be a little more serious.

 

If you think you can make the world into a new Garden of Eden by outlawing gas engines then stop being silly. CO2 is a nice enough gas. As a matter of fact plants need it to live.