Voter fraud doesn't matter

It is quite rare. But we could spent hundreds of billions to root it all out if you want

 

I say the same now as I said the last time you posed me this question. You are fabricating the position of your debate opponents. No one is (or at least they should not be) claiming that voter fraud does not matter. It does matter; however, the instance of voter fraud is so rare that the solution is almost never worth the unintended consequence. For instance, you reference the 900 vote margin in the North Carolina Congressional race. There appears to be extremely clear evidence of voter fraud, but would there be enough instances to overcome the 900 vote margin? Probably not.

But let's say you wanted to implement strict voter ID laws. Well, there is research to suggest that strict voter ID laws is associated with a ~2% reduction in voter turnout. In that one district alone in North Carolina, that is a reduction of ~5600 votes. And nearly all of those voters would otherwise be legally allowed to vote, but did not or could not simply by virtue of an attempt to limit voter fraud. And that says nothing of the fact that the strict voter ID law would not have done jack crap about the type of voter fraud which took place in this particular election.

And then you can start delving into the types of voters that are most likely affected by a strict voter ID law (or other restrictions to voter access) and they are almost always the very young, the very old, the very poor, and minorities. You and I both know that those demographics usually lean towards Democrats. And therein lies the explicit and real reason why Republicans crow about the the threat of voter fraud.

 

You appeared to initiate thread concerning voter fraud, and yet presented no instance of voter fraud.

I provided a credible, actual, ongoing investigation into voter fraud.

(It does not entail deranged raving concerning hats.)

 

Yes I asked a question about the the position the left takes that since voter fraud is so "rare" it doesn't matter and gave an example of where "rare" voter fraud could determine the outcome.

You brought up another case where the results are extremely close and in fact voter fraud may have changed the outcome.

So what say you that voter fraud is so rare that it doesn't matter as many on the left often say. In fact haven't you said that in the past?

 

I am unaware of the claim by your "left." If you might provide a citation, I shall gladly address it.

As I noted, your thread's title concerned "voter fraud."

You provided no instance of voter fraud having likely occurred.

I supplied one.

Voter fraud is far, far more likely to entail the partisan manipulation of absentee ballots en masse, or the hacking and perversion of electronic tabulations, of course.

 

(Clinton and the Democrats had good reason to dislike Dornan, who had criticized Clinton as a draft dodger and a "multiple womanizer".)

So far, this would seem to be a routine story, just another example of a politician who didn't pay enough attention to the folks back home, or how his district was changing. But there is more to the story. Dornan charged that Sanchez's margin came from non-citizens, and an investigation by the House of Representatives found that 547 non-citizens had voted in the election. Some believe that far more non-citizens voted, who were not detected. John Fund, in Stealing Elections, says that:

An INS investigation in 1996 into alleged Motor Voter fraud in California's Forty-sixth Congressional District revealed that "4,023 illegal voters possibly cast ballots in the disputed election between Republican Robert Dornan and Democrat Loretta Sanchez." (p. 24)



Unfortunately, Fund does not provide an end note for that quotation, though he does for most others in the book. The 4,023 is a larger number than I have seen in other accounts, though I have seen claims that more than 2,000 non-citizens were registered to vote in the district. The authoritative Almanac of American Politics (1998 edition) says only that "it is possible that Dornan has a case", which is as far as I would go, too.

But the Almanac has more to say about how many of those non-citizens got on the rolls, and that part of the story is also instructive.

Dornan brought his case to the House Contested Elections Task Force, which in February 1997 issued many subpoenas and promised a hearing in Orange County. Dornan argued that there were 1,789 illegal voters, and by Spring 1997 came up with proof that 547 non-citizens voted in Orange County and that 303 ineligibles had been registered to vote in the 46th District by Hermandad Nacional Mexicana; this fell short of proving the result was wrong, but raised questions about the netherworld of voter registration in Orange County. California's registration laws make it easy to get anyone on the voter rolls (the accused assassin of Mexican presidential candidate Luis Donaldo Colosio was a registered Democrat in San Pedro), and the Clinton Administration INS made great efforts to process new citizens and dispensed with the usual check for criminal records if the FBI did not respond within sixty days.

Hermandad Nacional Mexicana was running an interesting operation in Orange County.

Moreover, Dornan's attorney, Michael Schroeder, claims the taxpayer-funded English and citizenship classes were being illegally used for political purposes. In addition to being taught verb conjugations and the fundamentals of the U.S. Constitution, students in Hermandad's classes were receiving political indoctrination and being registered to vote even if they didn't meet the legal requirements.

And it was not just Dornan who found an irregularity or two in the group's registrations. So did the Los Angeles Times and an independent organization, the Fair Elections Group. Taxpayers will be pleased to learn that Hermandad Nacional Mexicana was not only a non-profit organization, in spite of its activities, but was subsidized by grants from a variety of governments. And those who have read this site for some time will not be surprised that nearly all of those registered by the organization requested absentee ballots. As we have learned again and again, absentee ballots are the choice of most who commit vote fraud...-> http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/003321.html

 

So as I said, the left says it is so rare as not to have any effect, well yes it does.

Over 800 of those votes are now being consider as fraud as part of just one scheme by the Republican guy. That leaves under 200. We had the case in Virginia were it ended a dead heat, just ONE fraudulent vote. And we still have Arizonia where again a tie.
So how rare does it have to be to effect an election?

And the other canard. There is research which shows voter turnout increases even after voter ID laws are put in place. And the rest of us should not have the entegrity of our voting systems challenged because a miniscule few do not take proper care and responsibility to get the ID correct.

"Strict voter ID laws do not suppress turnout, a new paper finds, regardless of sex, race, Hispanic identity, or party affiliation...In total, 10 states, ranging from Georgia to Wisconsin, require voters to show ID in order to vote. Seven of those states require a photo ID, and three do not. An additional 25 states "request" that voters display ID, but may still permit them to vote on a provision ballot if they cannot. The remaining states "use other methods to verify the identity of voters," according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. The new research, from an economics professor at the University of Bologna and another at Harvard Business School, indicates that "strict" voting laws of the type implemented in those ten states do not have a statistically significant effect on voter turnout..."Strict ID laws have no significant negative effect on registration or turnout, overall or for any subgroup defined by age, gender, race, or party affiliation," the paper's authors found. "Most importantly," they write, strict ID laws "do not decrease the participation of ethnic minorities relative to whites. The laws' overall effects remain close to zero and non-significant whether the election is a midterm or presidential election, and whether the laws are the more restrictive type that stipulate photo IDs.""
Soure: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybe...-id-laws-dont-decrease-voter-turnout-n2541344
Actual study: https://www.nber.org/papers/w25522

So only white guys can get ID's, how absurd.

 

The GOP PAID A POLITICAL OPERATIVE OVER $130,000 TO STEAL A CONGRESSIONAL SEAT!!!The North Carolina GOP political machine is corrupt from top to bottom.

 

You cited this
"Since the 2010 election, 24 states overwhelmingly controlled by Republicans have put in place new voting restrictions, such as tougher voter ID laws, cutbacks to early voting and barriers to registration. Republicans say these measures are necessary to combat the threat of widespread voter fraud, even though study after study shows that such fraud is exceedingly rare. "

You said this
"Wrong. I readily accept the rare instances of voter fraud for which their is credible evidence. I deny the alleged vast conspiracy for which there is none."

You cited this
"In point of fact, reputable studies have shown that voter fraud is extremely rare in U.S. elections."

You cited this
"Numerous studies have shown that voter fraud in U.S. elections is very rare."

I could go on.

I said this
"For those who claim voter fraud doesn't matter because it would have to happen on a large scale, those being mostly Democrats and leftist."
And I gave you an example of where just ONE fraudulent vote could change the outcome of the election. And I have listed several others.

And the one you supplied only add more to my question about the canard the voter fraud is so rare we should not be concerned nor take measures to insure it does not effect elections.

What say you now, is it so rare we should not be concerned with it and take measures to protect against it and not use systems which are vulnerable to it?

 

All the observations you have cited are true. Instances of voter fraud are extremely rare. There is no evidence of a vast conspiracy (despite Trump claiming that millions of invisible, bogus voters cast ballots against him.) Reputable studies have shown that voter fraud is extremely rare in U.S. elections. Numerous studies have shown that voter fraud in U.S. elections is very rare.

You have yet to cite any instances of your Democrats and leftists claiming what you allege.

Can an election, in an extremely rare instance, be decided by one vote? Hypothetically, of course.

That numerical certitude has nothing to do with your voter fraud. Any election is far more vulnerable to tampering with absentee ballots en masse, or hacking and altering electronic voter tabulations.

Any attempt to pervert an elections by organizing a criminal conspiracy in vast numbers (as in Trump's fantasy of millions) or by accurately assessing that one fraudulent vote will decide, is absurdly unrealistic.

Meanwhile, the election you cited in your thread concerning "Voter Fraud" has exhibited no evidence of voter fraud.

The one I cited has.

Fantasy vs Reality.

 

And so what?

I quoted you four times using that canard and you just used it again.

I gave two just within the last year. How about Virginia 2017 where which party would control the statehouse came down to a flip o a coin because one district was tied. Just one RARE fraudulent vote could have fraudulently determined that outcome.

And fraudulent votes and much easier to do with the lack manner in which we register voters in some states and then no require voter ID at the least.

As I have shown just another canard, it doesn't take vast numbers to change the outcome of an election. Most elections in this country don't even involve vast numbers.

So you are saying voter fraud doesn't exist?

 

IF the allegations in NC are Proven, then voter fraud obviously existed in NC (perpetrated by the GOP).

 

Election Fraud Cases from Across the United States

1,177
Proven instances of voter fraud

1,019
Criminal convictions

48
Civil penalties

81
Diversion program

14
Judicial finding

15
Official finding

Choose a state -> https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud
See states listed

See All Results

 

From Obamaland:

63 Individuals

A DOJ investigation of the Illinois election in 1982 estimated that 100,000 fraudulent ballots were cast in the gubernatorial primary. The investigation was tipped off by a party worker from Chicago's 39th Ward who was upset by his precinct captain's broken promise to award him a city job for his participation in the vote fraud scheme. The conspirators cast ballots for people who were elderly and disabled. The investigation resulted in 63 individuals being convicted, the largest voter fraud case in DOJ history.

Source: bit.ly/2uVkBtT

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?state=IL&name=&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=All&page=2

 

Real election fraud is extremely rare, but you can follow the actual case currently being exposed:

​

And you can follow real-time coverage here:

https://twitter.com/BowTiePolitics/lists/nc-9th-hearing
​

 

Yes and if it swayed the election it shows it doesn't have to be rare as the leftest canard claims. Thank you for proving the point. And too correct that we can get rid of the NGE entities that are using absentee ballots and have more strict voter ID laws for registration and the casting of the ballot.

 

So what? It doesn't have to be massive to affect an election. There are thousands of small elections in this country that can be effected by just a handful of fraudulent ballots. I have listed server large elections that came down to ties. The entire result of the 2000 Presidential election came down to only 537 votes out of almost six million cast in the state of Florida.

That it has to be massive is a canard the left uses to avoid have common sense, practical and effective measures in place to prevent as much voter fraud as we can. Why is that?

And how many fraudulent votes did it take to sway that election you are citing?

 

Glad to hear you admit that the NC GOP has to CHEAT to STEAL Elections.

Glad to know what we are on the same page.

 

Yes, as you titled the thread,
Voter fraud doesn't matter

My position is that voter fraud does matter when it actually happens.

I am note aware of any evidence that it happened in the election you cited, nor in the 2016 presidential election after which Trump made his fake claim that 3-5 million fraudulent voters had cast ballots, all against him.

Neither do I find his baseless insistence that there are individuals who vote repeatedly by changing hats credible.

"When people get in line that have absolutely no right to vote and
they go around in circles. Sometimes they go to their car,
put on a different hat, put on a different shirt, come in,
and vote again! Nobody takes anything.
It's really a disgrace what's going on!" ​

There is compelling evidence that Americans were defrauded of their votes in North Carolina's 9th district in 2018, and that is why the seat is empty and hearings are being conducted.

You can follow it here.

Why not confront reality?

 

Ideological dogma - credible evidence = hypocrisy.​

 

A GOP Political Action Group PAID over $131,000 to Dowless to steal absentee ballots fill them out for GOP candidates and steal the election, including a congressional seat.

 

Voter fraud doesn't matter

We have a genuine case of voters being defrauded.

It matters.

It did not involve changing hats.

The son of Republican congressional candidate Mark Harris testified in front of the North Carolina State Board of Elections on Wednesday that he cautioned his father against hiring a political operative who used illegal tactics in earlier elections.
​

The taxpayers of North Carolina will have to go without representation, and foot the bill to conduct re-elections for their 9th District Congressional Representative and minor offices. The scam has been exposed.

"When people get in line that have absolutely no right to vote and
they go around in circles. Sometimes they go to their car,
put on a different hat, put on a different shirt, come in,
and vote again! Nobody takes anything.
It's really a disgrace what's going on!"​

​

 

The right wing political action group RED DOME GROUP in North Carolina paid L.M.Dowless $131,000 to steal the congressional seat.They did it before and thought it would work again.

 

For those who claim voter fraud doesn't matter because it would have to happen on a large scale, those being mostly Republicans and rightist.

The Latest: Recount in Kentucky House race ends in tie
OWENSBORO, Ky. (AP) — The Latest on a recount for Kentucky House district 13 (all times local):

7:55 p.m.

A recount in a contested Kentucky state House race where a Democrat was elected by a one-vote margin has ended in a tie.
https://news.yahoo.com/latest-democ...--election.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&uh_test=1_14

This after the same happened in Virginia a year ago and that decided which party controlled the statehouse.

 

in this age of transparency, we should have laws requiring proof of citizenship & age (aka a passport id issued by the state dept) as the only acceptable way to enter any pollin place for any & every political election, including local office ie: sherriff, mayor, governor, any town/city officials... make it a 'zero tolerance' against non-eligible persons from registering or casting any vote, period...

we should also keep a data base of every vote & who they voted for... no need for secrecy... that way it'll be easy to check for fraud, one id one vote...

those that oppose this are obviously looking to circumvent the system, no doubt 'bout it