That would be Life, Forrest. I cannot conclude whimsy about God, from the natural world. It is very orderly, follows very consistent natural laws, & shows no favoritism. When you deal with the natural world, you very much know what you are going to get. If you jump off a cliff, you're going down. Fall in the water? You're getting wet. Just about everything in the universe is very consistent & predictable. Life? Humans? ...not so much. I would say attributing unpredictability toward God is irrational.. given the universe we live in. Unless we are projecting again.. ascribing human attributes of fickle whimsy because that is how we humans are. But that brings up another question. Is God 'human-like?' Why? What would make us think that God is like us, in any way? If you take the view of God that our native American siblings have, that of Mother Earth, & God being a reflection of Nature, then there might very well be some 'human-like' qualities about God.. since God is all of Nature. But why would we conclude that God is anything like us? Fickle, unreliable, deceitful, murderous, greedy... all the traits of humanity, especially the negative ones.. how do they apply to God? Many cultures, especially polytheistic ones, have very human attributes for their gods. They ARE fickle, jealous, mean, petty, & whimsical. But is there anything in the physical universe that would make us think He is like us? If we ascribe these fantastic qualities to God.. omniscience, omnipresence, all powerful, able to Create the universe, beyond time & space... if we define God with any of these kinds of attributes, why would we think He is saddled with our emotional, hysterical baggage? The universe reflects nothing like that, but is very orderly, predictable, & stable.
I can see the 'awesome power' conclusion, if we assume that God created all things. It would take a very powerful entity to make the universe, life, & creatures with eternal souls. But i don't follow the 'love' conclusion. How do you see love in God, from the visible universe? Some people thank God for their food.. but they are the ones who worked for it.. unless they are thankful for the physical world allowing the crop or food to grow. Perhaps it is looking deeper.. seeing the source of all things, & ascribing everything to God. Is that how you see it? So if your garden has a yield of vegetables, & you sit to eat them, you can be thankful to God for providing the bounty of your harvest, & 'giving' you food to eat. As humans we are pretty superficial & entitled.. seeing the source of our food, water, air, shelter, & everything, really, would eventually lead back to God. And i suppose, that even though there is a struggle for us, sometimes (all the time?), to acquire the necessities of life, we can see it all as being from God, & is a reflection of His provision. Is that how you get 'love' from the physical universe? I suppose, since we are positing a Creator/God, who made all things, & set the Natural Laws in motion, that we are the beneficiaries of these laws, even though they are hard & inflexible, & cause us a lot of work to get the things we need to survive. Ok. So i can include 'Love' in the attributes of God, as a Father/Mother provider. Since everything we need to survive in the world comes to us from the natural world, it is a sign of His provision, & an act of love. I think this is very much the view of the Native Americans, who saw Mother Earth as the provider.
But what, if anything, does our human angst tell us about God? Why do we have it? What is the point, if there is a God? What is the point of it, if there is no God? I know there are many poetic ways of describing this human trait, & it has been part of the human experience since man first walked the earth, or at least since he could communicate. Why is angst necessary for survival? I get physical pain..to deter us from injuring or maiming ourselves. But why this 'psychological form of pain', as you put it? It seems to me that people who distract themselves from their angst have happier, less stressful lives, & those who dig into their angst live with despair & mental anguish. So what is the purpose of this 'night of the soul'?
If you should think about the formula "to fear god" then this has nothing to do with angst. Today we could say "to respect god and his laws" instead of "to fear god" . I'm sure that's what the ancient authors of the bible thought about, when they used the expression "to fear god". In case of angst let me give you another example: You are wounded in war or in a catastrophe. Suddenly you see worms in your wound. A good reason for angst and panic. The worms eat parts of your body while you are alive. But someone might think in this situation: "God sent me this worms, I'm sure this will help. Think about Saint Francis. I'm sure he saw in worms our sisters and brothers too." And with his trust in god he might be not as helpless as someone else who trusts not in god. The story ends with a happy end: A doctor will explain him later how this worms had saved his life by eliminating dead, poisoning substance of the own body. Angst helps us to bring us not in dangerous situations. Someone who uses drugs or alcohol for example suffers often angst too. This angst is realism. Drugs and alcohol will kill us. Other dangerous situations damage or kill us too and so on and so on. There are normally good reasons for angst. That's for me no problem. I'm not astonished not to be able to understand an entity which had created the whole universe out of nothing and knows everything about every particle in this universe here. I'm sure god is directly in front of our eyes, where we are able to see him with our hearts but not with our eyes. More concrete: "The logos" is everywhere. And this sentence is now reality, how every physicist with clear mind is able to tell you. The oldest grave is about 95000 years old. The grave was found not far from Israel I heard. The oldest temple oft the world is Göbekli Tepe. It was made in the stone age and is the begin of all civilizations and cultures of the world. We are born out of spirituality. The exactly same reason: To avoid dangerous situations automatically. Purpose? ... Hmm ... Do you know who Lucifer is? ... Ah: no-no-no-no-no: wrong answer! ... I ask again: Do you know what the symbol "Lucifer" means? ... Compare this with your wrong knowledge about the expression "Lucifer" and you are able to find out what the dark night of the soul is: It is your dark night of the soul. But don't worry: god shows the way - even if it is not always an easy way.
ignorance is absence of knowledge, Abscence of knowledge implies no basis for belief The way I see it, atheism simply recognizes the lack of evidence I see no reason to have faith,and many reasons not to have faith i do not have faith that god does not exist anymore than I have faith that unicorns do not exist Yes, and I choose not to have faith in that which cannot be proved Yes, faith is the decision operate without evidence[/QUOTE] And yet if children didn't have faith, and didn't accept what they were taught without proof, how much would they know in the end? Everything you do requires faith, and from that faith comes experience. It's the same with God. He asks for faith, and the experience will come with it.
All questions about the existence of God, what God wants, what God does can be answered by simply looking in the mirror, as well as looking at other people and your questions are answered.
And yet if children didn't have faith, and didn't accept what they were taught without proof, how much would they know in the end? Everything you do requires faith, and from that faith comes experience. It's the same with God. He asks for faith, and the experience will come with it. [/QUOTE] This answers the question of God. Children normally do not accept things on face value, because that is the basic ideological thinking of people as a whole. This natural process is broken down because of outside interference that is dictatorial in nature and mandates that acceptance on face value is the only manner in which a person can obtain realistic information about God, self, and others. Assumption based beliefs are fragile at best, and antithetical to intelligent reasoning at worst, which is also anti-God being that in Taurat, al-Jadid, and Holy Qur'an; we are told to ask, seek, and learn to gain knowledge about what life, love, peace, happiness and yes, God. Knock and the door shall be opened, seek and you shall find, throw truth at Ash-Shaitan until you knock his brains out. The key to all understanding, and gaining knowledge is the first step to understanding, is seeking knowledge that will suffice in satisfying your need(s).
Yes I totally agree. "God" resides between the individual's ears and can be manifest by simply looking in the mirror.
IMO, that is only true if we assume that God is like us. And, why would we assume that? What is there in the physical universe, that would compel a conclusion of God being like us? According to our other observations, He is NOTHING like us. So how do you get the assumption of a Human-like God?
God is moved by death. Shortest verse in the Bible. Look it up." Jesus wept". We were not created for death.
To clarify, I did not say that “God’ is like us; I said that “God” IS us. Whether good or bad, God is us and there is nothing that can equate to people on all levels. All of the attribute of “God” are nothing more than explanations of the characteristics of Man and Mankind. When Man and Mankind want or need something, we provide it for ourselves, either collectively or individually; we provide our own needs and fulfill our own desires. There is no God or Devil outside of Man and Mankind. In the Taurat, Nabi Ezekiel (Dhul-Kifl) is called Son of Man. Through this title there is an admonition that Man is God because Son of Man implies that the person with this title is God, because Man is God (Ezekiel 2).
We are looking at the physical universe, or personal experiences, that make us conclude something about God. Merely declaring beliefs is not what the OP is asking for. I am quite sure that many people have very distinct, & strong, beliefs. This is mostly a philosophical exercise... to make us consider what God is like, with just observation & our own lives as the basis. Ah, but i see that as no different. We are still projecting, & i agree, it is a very common thing, for humans to project their 'nature' onto gods. You see that in Greek mythology, where the gods are very human, with distinctly human emotions & foibles. But how do we get to that, from the observations of the natural world? God, if we premise Him as an omnipotent, all powerful being, would not seem to have these traits that are peculiar to man. Why would He be petty, fickle, crabby, arrogant, bombastic, or any such human traits, that mighty humans seem to exhibit consistently? Is that not just the 'God envy' of the humans? Why should we project their personality defects onto God?
Please let me clarify. I believe that God (in whatever concept or format one wish) RESIDES within the individual mind and nowhere else in this universe. I totally agree that the religious idea that a creator of this universe who by definition must exist outwith of space/time might in anyway would resemble a human in mind or body is the ultimate human conceit.
someone claiming to be a god doesn't make it so,there have been millions of lunatics who have claimed so
My belief IS my personal experience. As I figured, you don't want my opinion or anything to do with faith. There is a pre conceived notion you have and you just want to flap your gums.
This thread is not about proving or disproving or asserting opinions about a belief or non-belief in God.. just a logical exercise in concluding attributes of God, if we premise His existence. You don't have to constantly remind everyone that you are an atheist. Nobody will confuse you with some bible thumper..
Hiya, Max! Long time no see! And, i completely concur with your conclusion. There isn't a lot of physical evidence to tell us much about the nature of God, other than what we can deduce from the material world. And once you toss in traits like, omnipotent, omnipresent, all powerful, eternal, infinite, etc, it can only boggle the human mind, which is stuck in finite materialism. But, we do have the ability, for some reason, to ponder abstract thought, & the concepts behind this kind of being. So that is what we do... and have done.. for millennia.
Not at all. We are all just 'flapping our gums'.. that is why we are on a discussion forum, it seems to me. I have requested, in the OP, any thoughts about what you can conclude about God from the natural world, or any of our mortal, subjective experiences. There are plenty of threads where people declare their beliefs & opinions, & that has happened here, too, but i was requesting a rational perception about God, based on external evidence. I am making no preconceived notions, & am not 'guiding' the discussion anywhere. Not everything is a conspiracy. Its just something to talk about.. or 'flap your gums', if you prefer.
I wake up and see a beautiful sunset over the mountains-God. Visit the hospital and see a newborn baby-God. We take an offering at Church for the thousands suffering from the hurricanes, comes to tens of thousands of dollars-God. An 82 year old man repents of the sin in his life and wants to be baptized in the name of Jesus-God.A friend of mine has heart fibulations and is pronounced dead twice. Her husband is told if she comes through she will be severely brain damaged. Thousands pray. Doctors do their best. She comes through and is her beautiful self-God. Grace is extended to a girl from the porn industry. She decides to give the rest of her life to serving others-God. Stare down at the Grand Canyon and marvel at the power it took to form it-God. Seeing the stars at night and wondering about the complexity of things-God. Just being amazed at my own thought process and how I contemplate life and death, have empathy for others, want a better world for future generations, have a sense of justice and wonder how all this was placed in my heart-God. Thanks for letting me "flap my gums".
If you are going to call people of faith "Bible thumpers", which you obviously do to demean them, why don't you refer to atheists as "godless hedonists"? That would be fair and balanced. I believe you only cater to the latter. I don't believe your intent is honest. It has an agenda.
Lack of capacity. Most people don't really comprehend the size of the planet much less our Solar System. The Universe itself is a just a label for something beyond their comprehension. Since that is so, how can they possibly comprehend a power that is even greater than all the Universe itself? What we can do is try to comprehend our relationship with existence, and/or God. Mankind is composed of the physical, the mental and the spiritual. The first two can be measured using natural laws, albeit psychological does present some problems. Spiritual can't be measured at all other than some are more spiritual than others. There is no way to prove one's spiritual beliefs nor disprove them. It's all a matter of faith.
