What To Do About The Long-Term Implications of Automation

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Meta777, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks! Devils advocate arguments are oftentimes the best ones for fully understanding an issue.

    I agree there is a line of responsibility. The question is where exactly is that line? Or where should it be?

    Its tempting to ask more specifically, at what point does personal responsibility end and government responsibility begin?
    But I believe, as you probably do also, that personally responsibility almost always plays a role, no matter what, at least partially.

    But there is some point at which government should start to share in some of that responsibility.
    So the question remains, while personal responsibility is always a factor, at what point does government become responsible for helping out presumming that the individual has honestly put forth an effort and tried where they could and still ended up short? Or to put it another way, how much should an individual citizen have to do to support themselves/what steps should they be required to take or try before they look towards government for some assistance for things like basic necessities?

    Currently, it almost sounds like you think that government should never do anything at all to assist anyone who is older than a child, no matter what they try or what they're up against...but that can't be right. Keep in mind, this question is being asked in the context of a future in which a significant chunk of jobs have been automated to the point of not requiring humans. I actually made a post a while back somewhere in this thread which was sort of a parody (but not really) of something a poster had written a few years ago regarding that very line. I'll have to dig it up here in a bit and re-post it...

    The door to abuse is almost always open no matter what general course of action we choose to take. But we shouldn't let things like that hold us back from progress or from solving issues. What we do in those situations, is to put in safe guards to guard against such abuse.

    -Meta
     
  2. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think that when you ask when government should interfere, the answers people give you will depend much more on their personal situations and politics rather than the best for the nation and future considerations.

    I am a supporter of a simple theory. Lets call our a nation a house, or wall or structure of some sorts. The people are the building blocks- the bricks, and the relationships between us, both individual and government, are the mortar that holds us together.

    In this situation, the bricks are also the makers of the mortar, as well as the makers of the bricks- because we do not start out as bricks. Neither do real bricks, they start out as block of clay mud.

    It is the firing process that turns a mud block into a brick- makes it independently strong and able to bond to others in ways that makes the bricks reinforce each others.

    With people the firing process is facing responsibility- learning to be independently strong, both for yourself and so that you are not a burden on others. This of course is where our weakness enters the picture. The real job of parenting is to "build" a strong adult person- one who hopefully is strong enough to handle life on their own by age 18. The weaker the parents, the less likely that will happen. While the relationship isn't absolute it's generally true. Stronger parents raise better prepared children- weaker ones less prepared.

    While one can't teach or give what they don't have, the real job for each of us is to take what we are given, sort out the trash and discard it, and add the best we can to pass on to our own kids. Rich or poor, regardless of education or background, this is everyone's proper role.

    Strong bricks and good mortar build strong houses. However, mud blocks and mud mortar build terrible ones. Weak people are needy- they have little to give, they need everything they have inside for themselves, because they don't know how to make themselves strong.... or simply lack the motivation to do so. They also have no ability to form good relationships, for the same reason; they are preoccupied with their own need.

    A strong nation is good for everyone- rich, poor, old young, all of us. It's not only great for today- it's the insurance for the future and future generations, our children. Thus, we should see raising strong children and building strong people as fundamental to all of us. High priority. It is also life's greatest challenge, mastering yourself. With that comes control over your own life- awesome stuff.

    It's human nature for many to be lazy, to take the easy road, to procrastinate, to avoid responsibility- and that has consequences. Consequences are natures great teacher, and it works quite well- and people learn, unless you interfere and shield the irresponsible from the consequences of their own actions. Once you do that, you not only deprive the irresponsible person of the education of consequences, you teach him that somebody else will be there to cover for him. You make him dependent on others for support, and in doing so you deprive him of the ability to gain self-esteem- pride in who he is, in his ability to be independent. It takes a strong person to refuse free help that shields him from his own weakness.

    Now- how does the determine where we help, and where we don't?

    We are a generous people- perhaps too generous. Many simply see need and try to help, without realizing that helping can sometimes do great harm.

    Everyone knows about the farm communities where someone is injured and his neighbors show up and bring in his crop. That happens all the time- and it's done because they know that if they were the one hurt, the person they are helping would be there for them as well.
    When we help people who are in need for reasons beyond their control, people who actually want to be back on their own as quickly as possible- everyone wins. The person we help knows he has real friends, and appreciates them- and will no doubt pay it forward. The people who help are proud of themselves too. Both sides win.

    However, when we give support to those who won't support themselves- or at least make their best effort to do so- everything changes. We foster dependence in them, and while they take our money- they resent the dependence, and actually blame their frustration on the people who help them. They tend to accept the idea that society owes them, and the payments aren't enough to make them happy. Not only does the world owe them (we confirmed it by the fact we paid, in their opinion, ie entitlement) but our payments are late and less than they think they are owed. Both sides lose- and worse, it creates an ongoing problem instead of solving a temporary one.

    While individuals can make a pretty accurate judgment of when help will actually be helpful, Governments are lousy at it. Governments run on paper rules, administered by people with little personal concern for the case- and thus we use sort of a blanket approach and try to determine a level of worthiness with numbers and claims. We see applicants that learn to play the game, say the right words to get benefits. The lower their self respect the easier that is. Dependence doesn't build self respect, but only cultivates more dependence. It simply doesn't work.

    One approach is time limits. Physically fit people with legitimate sounding cause get benefits for a fixed time. However nobody that is fit should be on welfare indefinitely. There should be no multi-generation welfare recipients. Tough love so to speak, is part of the answer- and that's sink or swim. Let natures' process take it's course, and sooner or later, they will find motivation.

    We need more bricks- and fewer mud blocks in the wall.

    That's what should be, but I doubt our society has the strength to do it. We feel sorry too easy for people who feel sorry for themselves, and they are always the first ones in line.
     
  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  4. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Unemployment compensation at one dollar an hour less than the minimum wage; simply for being unemployed on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, solves for this dilemma.

    The left has a fine capital solution; where is the better alternative choice at lower cost, from the right wing? Don't be slackers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  5. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  6. RBoyd

    RBoyd Well-Known Member

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    People have no idea how many robots they already own. They may not move about, but they have computer controlled motors that accomplish tasks. Most homes likely already have half a dozen.

    Automation is everywhere, I know this because I fix robots. Printers, blood cell counters, blood chemistry analysers, infusion pumps, autoclaves, and lots of other devices.

    I see the World through a tech's eye and I see automated toll roads, buildings, Distribution Centers, and offices. I don't see it slowing down, but you can always get a job fixing robots.

    If they ever build a robot to do my job, I'll get a job fixing that robot.
     
  7. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    The problem isn't the mere existence of the robots themselves, nor their ubiquity necessarily.
    The problem, or to be more accurate, the potential problem, is how much (and how fast)
    the various types of automation completely replaces humans, specifically in fields of work
    typically used by folks to provide themselves and their families with some sort of livelihood.

    I make a point to say potential problem, because depending on how we, as a society,
    and as individuals, choose to react to it, that automation can actually end up being very good for us.
    But only if we react to it wisely...e.g. by picking a few of the better ideas from the list compiled here
    and moving forward with their implementation. But if we don't react at all though,...if we just continue
    on trying to do things the same way we've done them in the past, then I don't see things turning out well.

    You suggest that if your job is replaced by a machine, that you'll simply get a job fixing that machine instead.
    Certainly...having the skills required to maintain the automation will increase your chances of having a job,
    but relying on that as a society-wide resolution simply isn't practical, because:
    1. Not everyone who'll be replaced has or can easily obtain such skills.
      (and as automation becomes more sophisticated, it'll only get harder)...and, more importantly...

    2. Even if everyone replaced could gain such skills, there likely aren't going to be enough of those maintenance jobs to cover them all. I mean, just think about it....if a company is bringing in automation of that caliber, they're probably doing so in order to maximize the company's overall return on investment. Let's say that it takes 10 people to do your job today, and that the company is replacing those 10 with some automated system. Now, ...if after setting up that new system, the company is now employing all 10 full time and at the same wage level to instead maintain that system, then where exactly is the company's return on investment? And why exactly would any company even choose to go down that route if they knew upfront that such a situation would be the outcome?

      In reality, the automation, if built by anyone who's even semi-competent at what they do, isn't going to require all 10 of you in order to maintain it. If the builders of the automation try to incorporate in ill-informed intentional obsolescence in order to guarantee more maintenance work, someone else is just going to come along and offer the company a better deal. What we end up with in the end is automation which may only require 1 of the 10 original workers in order to maintain it. And as competition heats up, that very automation may advance to the point at which very little if any maintenance is needed at all. So if those 10 workers are lucky, the company may have some other, unrelated job for them to do. But as modern automation continues to fill ever more typically human-filled roles, the risk of layoff or of being forced into jobs of increasingly-lower pay will become greater.
    -Meta
     
  8. RBoyd

    RBoyd Well-Known Member

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    Mechanical Automation is nothing, we're entering into the age of intellectual automation. We won't need Engineers, Architects, MBAs, Marketing Specialists, Copywriters, Lawyers, Accountants, Teachers, and just about any other professional position.

    With Tax Software and online Education we've seen the jobs of Accountants and Teachers go away somewhat. With the rise of more powerful computers and AI you'll be able to teach a computer to not only create, but to create faster and better.
     
  9. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed. And btw, I actually dabble in putting together Neural Networks. But, as with most things, I have trouble explaining it to others in a concise way....I can barely explain to myself how it all works. But then recently, I came across this video which explains the concepts perfectly at least at a high level. Key point to take away from it I think is the idea that not even the creators of this new wave of AI can fully comprehend how it functions. The AIs are sort of like us (humans) in that regard.



    -Meta
     
  10. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    The left already has several solutions and we are moving forward on several fronts.

    Whence Any solutions from the right wing?
     
  11. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    In my opinion, we shouldn't focus so much on which side is providing the most solutions.
    Not like its a contest or anything, right? Besides, there are in fact several solutions in the list here
    from folk who I'd consider right of center. Not that I particularly like to use labels like that in the first place.

    What concerns me more, is that despite the fairly good sized list of options here,
    there are only a few posters who seem to have any sort of opinion as to which ideas are best.
    Only a few, so far, that seem to understand and care about the issue enough to cast a vote in the voting thread:
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-long-term-implications-of-automation.534062/

    -Meta
     
  12. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Unemployment compensation simply for being unemployed is a simple solution. The legal and physical infrastructure already exists in our Republic.

    What objection can there be to a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation at fourteen dollars an hour simply for being unemployed?

    The inflation canard won't work; higher paid labor will pay more in taxes and create more in demand. And reduce the need for social services.
     
  13. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    If you like that solution, then why don't you vote for it in the poll?

    -Meta
     
  14. RBoyd

    RBoyd Well-Known Member

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    I think what everyone is missing here is that automation will come for you too. There isn't a degree you can earn that will keep you safe.
    Outside of being fabulously wealthy, (nice work if you can get it) there isn't a job or profession that insulates you from AI and automation.
     
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  15. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Our legislators are slackers. They prefer to command feel good public policies, to addressing the exigencies.
     
  16. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    While certainly not everyone does, I think that a lot of people actually do get that.
    What they may not understand as well however is what exactly can/should be done about it.

    For instance, there is a vote currently set up right now on this site to identify what the best fix for the problem is.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-long-term-implications-of-automation.534062/

    But, at least so far, only a small few forum members have bothered to share their preferences.
    I suspect this may be because while many understand that there is an issue needing to be solved,
    they don't necessarily understand the issue or the suggested solutions well enough to make
    what they would consider an informed decision on the matter. Do you agree with this assessment?

    -Meta
     
  17. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Anyway, thanks for having no objections to the actual policy, and hope for your vote, when it should come up.
     
  18. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  19. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I like some of the ideas in the list, but I think it misses the core issue.

    At one time our economy was based on agriculture. When we transitioned to manufacturing we recognized that our system of 8th grade education wasn't meeting what was needed by our new center of competitiveness. So, we made HS a requirement and provided it to all.

    I think what we're seeing is another similar transition. We need to make sure Americans are ready to compete as that transition progresses.

    The Clinton plan for that involved attention to vocational education on a continuing basis. Surely the last election demonstrated that we can't afford to leave significant numbers of workers and vocational professionals behind.

    It also means that an increasing percentage of jobs will require academic education. For example, there are positions in manufacturing today, but they are more weighted to engineers who can design, install and operate automated systems. The guys who do that are highly likely to have degrees and/or training in systems engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering and other design related fields.

    We can't afford having those in vocational or academic programs having to go into tens of thousands of dollars of debt. That reserves education for the wealthy at a time we need all the brain cells we've got. High education costs mean those coming out are less able to afford to chances - to help advance risky new technology or try to open a new business.

    We're spending a lot of focus on manufacturing where other nations are already competitive with us, while I suspect we're not focused enough on high tech, information, clean energy, and other areas where we could have a competitive edge. And, we can't afford to have the high schoolers of today become the left behind workers of tomorrow.
     
  21. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Automation eliminates the need for drudgery. Did you know that, because of automation, people make a living playing video games? That would never have been an option in the twelfth century. Everyone, except a very small minority, would have had to be a farmer. Thanks to automation, people can be writers, therapists, bloggers, etc.

    Thank God for automation.
     
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, that idea...education/training...is in the list of poll options as well.
    In fact, its sort of in there more than once. See options D, E, and G.

    -Meta
     
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  23. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Our legislators are supposed to respond to the will of the people.
    If the people make it known what it is they want their legislators to do, the legislators should respond, at least in theory.
    Participating in opinion polls like this one are a great way to let legislators know what it is the people want.
    BTW, if we don't let them know what we want, how/why would we expect them to do it?
    Legislators are not physic y'know.

    -Meta
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Your chart on jobs and on social paradigm shift are incredibly important.

    I haven't seen it presented that clearly before!!
     
  25. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks! Though I can't take credit for creating them.
    I just consolidated them into a post and added some descriptive commentary.

    -Meta
     

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