How the Union benefits Scotland and the Scots.

It gives them good ,near , role models to encourage them to find the perspective to explore their character and isolate the reasons that make them a butt of humour .
Here is a gag which get to the heart of the problem , imo .A society built on coarse , big mouthed "Fishermen's wives"


A Scots boy came home from school and told his father he had been given a part in the school play. "Wonderful," says his Dad , "What part is it?" The boy says "I play the part of the Scottish husband!" Dad scowls and says: "Go back and tell your teacher you want a speaking part."

 

Citigroup? You have got to be joking, there is nothing they would like more than an independent Scotland.

Alex Salmond came up with a hare brained scheme that he would cut corporation tax from 30% to 20% to attract business north of the border. Only problem is Cameron beat him to it and has already cut corporation tax to 20%. So Salmond has decided that an independent Scotland will cut it again to 15% to attract businesses to move north of the border. It won't work because Cameron will just cut corporation tax first.

Net result, Scotland ends up with only half the corporation tax revenue they would have had and the corporation's executives double their bonuses.

I'll stick with Glasgow University, they don't have a vested interest.

 

I thought you would like this as it seems to nail you .
Bit like the whole tribe -- need nailing .

 

So you don't think there are economists employed in the Scottish government and serving as advisors to them? You don't think that the GERS Reports are produced by UK Economists? Bit of a bugger that when it is the GERS figures that used by the experts at Glasgow University, and economists elsewhere to produce their projections.

The article also said a budget deficit of about £17 billion per year and inherit a £125 billion share of the UK’s national debt..but it was also written at the end of February 2010. Danny Alexander made his speech in January 2011 quoting the share of National Debt as £65 billion.

And it said the CPPR claimed Scotland’s deficit as a percentage of GDP is 12.5 per cent, compared to 12.6 per cent for the UK as a whole, the worst of any economically-developed nation apart from Iceland and Greece.

But I kinda think that that the worst of any economically-developed nation apart from Iceland and Greece bit was lifted direct from a previous week's Finance Article which said Britain has one of the worst deficits as a percentage of GDP in the world, according to OECD figures. Only Iceland and Greece have higher deficits and experts fear it could overtake Greece because the CPPR doesn't tend to make statements like that, not that I have noticed, anyway.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/7269629/Britains-deficit-third-worst-in-the-world-table.html

By the way.....I have just trawled through the CPPR site read everything...and I mean everything, written before February 2010..and all I can find I can find is a Sunday Times Report dated December 2009 (which would be on 2008-2009 GERS figures) and it approaches some of what was written in the Telegraph...though not the context in which it was written.

Sunday Times Report

What the Sunday Times Report actually says, by the way, and the Telegraph deliberately omitted..is Scotland's deficit as a percentage of GDP is 12.5 per cent, compared to 12.6 per cent for the UK as a whole and 12.5 per cent for the rUK after independence. That same piece also forecasts the deficits as percentages in 2010-2011 as Scotland 11.4%, UK 12.00% and rUK 12.00%....and in 2012-2013 as Scotland 8.8% . UK and rUK 9.1%.

It also says..in 2011-12 share of National Debt might be around £125bn as opposed to the Telegraph's would. Note the might..which means then again it might not..and given the referendum isn't until 2014, I guess that is something we're all going to have to wait to find out.

No harm in speculating or forecasting, though..provided you do it on accurate and unbiased figures and don't exaggerate or manipulate results for effect.

What makes you think we'd be daft enough to set up an oil fund if the economy couldn't take it, fredc? By the time any independence negotiations are over, the banks won't be failing and need bailed out..at least not the RBS.....if the UK get real with them, which I beg leave to doubt.

Basically, the CPPR Sunday Times Report is saying the decisions around independence aren't going to be easy..but we know that, and that is why we are (or at least some of us are, discussing them.

I'm going to repeat here...Running deficits do not equate to economic meltdown, fredc......particularly in a country, like Scotland, which has minimal ability allowed it by the UK and can do nothing but suffer the consequences of UK policy which is aimed predominantly at supporting London and the South East of England..and their capitalist cronies. If we were independent, we would be in a position to produce our own policies for our own situation, but it is more than a little stupid, don't you think, to be using a situation which is solely due to the effect of UK policies on Scotland in a thread which is asking for good reasons to stay in the Union?

 

My point was Unionist scare tactics take whatever bit of information they can get. If Cameron claims that Citigroup saying the Referendum is causing uncertainty is sufficient reason to call an early Referendum, then it ought to as important that Citigroup reckons we will be more financially viable than the rest of the UK....but not to the Unionists, it is not. Double standards.

The financial situation has been over talked. I am sure every Scottish person has long got fed up with the 'you can't manage' scare stories. They have all been rebutted ad nausea as they have in this thread.

Financially we are able for Independence. Independence will give us the opportunity to create a society more in keeping with the needs and aspirations of the Scottish people.

I cannot see anything that Union has to offer. I cannot wait for you to remove your nukes though I gather that might take at least ten years.

We will become a different society to yourselves. You will likely keep moving to the right and we hopefully will have much less inequality, be more based on the kind of system they have in Norway. Now it will be up to the people of Scotland to make that happen and Independence is the first step.

After Independence I am sure we will become friends. It will be more interesting visiting and sharing culture as we become more different.

 

Actually we don't support London and the South East, London and the South East support us. They are the only regions in the UK which actually put more into the economy than they take out.

http://www.isitfair.co.uk/Reports/Public/OE%20UKPublicFinance.pdf

Their taxes subsidise Scotland.

 

Anything pointing out the flaws in the SNP lies is going to be labled a "scare story" from now on I take it.

If you want to base Scotland's economy on Norway's and have money for an oil fund then you will have to nationalise the oil industry like Norway's is.

Unfortunately the international corporations who have invested heavily in the North Sea might not like it. Saddam Hussein did it, Gadaffi was about to do it.

 

UK policy does....or do you not recognise the difference between policy and people?

Now, I'd kinda like to know just what the input from London etc to the UK economy has to do with the request for a good reason to remain in the Union, as per the OP?

I am still waiting for even one good reason! Anyone got one?

 

Now Now Viv...just remember...The Northern Rock was divided by the Bankers, one part is now a resident bank in the Channel Islands and is very lucrative and profitable to the new owners....While the Toxic debts and The now "Real non profitable Northern Rock"...the legacy of self regulation (Thatchers brain child) was given to the general public for tax payers bailouts!
So the degenerates can steal more money from the general population of all nations!

But what this has to do with benefits of the Union I fail to understand.....does this mean they on the other side of the border wishes us on this side of the border to educate them when someone there leaders....are stealing from them????

I have not seen one constructive comment to why we should remain a member of the UK!
Have they gone home and given up????

Regards
Highlander

 

I do reserve the right to dispel Nationalist myths when I see them.

London and the South East makes a profit, a large profit, their money supports government policy not the other way round. Scotland makes a loss, the Cockney works to support the Scot.

 

Often so, particularly as many of these issues have been argued to death. I thought the monetary one had finally been put to bed but see it brought up when it is known perfectly well that Scotland is at the very least a little bit more secure than England. All the stories have been overplayed. That is what I am saying. If you have only just got on the bandwagon then it is your issue, not those who have resolved it.

and yes, of course the intent in the media to still pretend that Scotland could not manage financially is simply an attempt to get a no vote - but hardly likely to succeed. On Devo Max, on us having total control of our money it is known there would be a substantial yes vote. Clearly people have resolved the money issue and believe we would be directing things better independent of to the Union.

It is on the final stage concerning foreign policy, war and so on that some people still feel a desire for Union. Probably it is just more a psychological thing and likely will be resolved before 2014. The money argument has been resolved and has the support of at least 2/3rd of Scottish people, probably more. Devo max is not wanted by London, partly probably due to genuine difficulties in changing the system at Westminster - some new arrangements dealing with these things would be needed - but anyone thinking that Independence is not going to demand a lot of changes is turning a blind eye to reality. Devo Max not being agreed to by London tends to make the likelihood of a vote for outright Independence far stronger.

So what are you suggesting now. England and France going to war with Scotland to steal her oil?

However no I was not thinking of oil but more on us being a country with minimal inequality. Anyone see Panorama last night? Norway's nursery's being one possible consequence. It is about building a country based on the common good alongside Individual Rights and both concepts put into our constitution.

Your 'benefits' for Scotland staying in the Union become more oppressive and threatening.

 

No, it hasn't been put to bed, that's just starry eyed, pie in the sky Nationalist wishful thinking. Scotland, with few assets and no credit rating will be starting out with a huge debt and running a deficit.

I'm saying that Scotland is not Norway and never will be. Norway nationalised oil in 1972 before the money was invested, the work done and the risks taken. If Scotland tried to Nationalise their oil industry now to be like Norway there would be sanctions like in Iran.

So if Scotland is going to have more equality like Norway how come Salmond is slashing corporation tax instead of keeping it high like Norway does? You can't have equality while your First Minister is pandering to his pals Goodwin and Souter.

Standard rate of VAT is 25% in Norway and a pint of beer costs over £6. Tell the people the truth, you're going to double the price of beer, instead of trying to con them into thinking champagne will be flowing out of every tap.

 

as far as the people of Scotland it has.

Of course Scotland is not Norway. It is Scotland.

i have not a clue what you are talking about. First you are suggesting England and France should attack Scotland, now you are suggesting sanctions against her because you believe she is like Iran.

Scotland will act legally on that you can be sure. As far as nukes, those belong to your own selves and are polluting our country.

You are becoming more and more ridiculous. Scotland can build a good economy and a strong section of that will be re-industrialisation and improving our Manufacturing creating quality goods which are wanted worldwide. Following the German model we can save ourselves from slavery while also using our assets wisely.

you get tartier and tartier, more and more insulting. What even makes you think that the SNP will have a majority in an Independent Scotland. That will go to whoever offers the best proposals for the future of Scotland as needed at the time.

You clearly have totally lost it and just stuck in insults. One thing is sure, you know of not one place where Scotland benefits from the Union.

I don't deny that less inequality means higher taxes. I do not have a problem with that. You may have missed it but Scotland is putting minimal prices on alcohol anyway. You may enjoy it in London going out and getting drunk and taking your pants down while families working full time in low paid jobs cannot even afford to live in their homes. We can work towards providing quality nursery's and hope for all our people. Will take some time but England is headed for slavery. Time to leave a sinking ship. Developed nations with less inequality have less mental illness.

 

Not in a thread which is sitting here waiting for some good reason for Scotland to stay in the Union.

In any other forum that would be off-topic trolling..but in this whole forum, it appears that, without off-topic trolling there would be relatively few posts, so mods don't appear to take a lot of notice.

Every irrational post you make in this or other thread simply illustrates that there IS no good reason to stay in the Union. Though, I guess without anything to make positive posts about, all that is left for those with nothing to say but with a compelling need to say anything just to read themselves, is to spew bile, misrepresentation, lies and personal opinion as fact...and repeat that ad nauseam.

 

So you speak for everyone in Scotland now do you?

So using Norway as a model of how Scotland could be successful economically is just a load of bovine excrement.

I'm just pointing out what would happen if Scotland decided to be like Norway like you said they would.

And bringing jobs, wealth and security to the people of Scotland.

First it's the Norwegian model then it's the German model, were you thinking of invading Poland?

If there is an independent Scotland, there is still a good chance sanity will prevail.

You're sounding more and more like a Monty Python sketch all the time.

I may well enjoy getting drunk and taking my pants down in London but seeing as I'm a crofter in the Highlands of Scotland I don't get the opportunity. Tell me, is it fun?

Please tell me about this industrialisation you will be imposing on us as well, what is it going to be? An aluminium smelter in the Glens to match the windmills and make the people of Edinburgh wealthy free and equal? They tried that one at Invergordon 40 years ago, it only lasted 10 years but the firth is still full of toxic waste.

 

I'm still trying to work your out!

May I say...if your judge jury and executioner.....you always win!

Investment in an area like the South Coast of England will bring its rewards...if you control the investment and subsidies to a certain area...again it will prosper!
When you have no investment for generations and what work there is local populations are excluded...what would you expect!
The UK employment agency has a lot to answer!

At Kishorn when it was first opened...they discriminated in favour of the local population to ensure the work was given to locals before taking outside labour. Yes ....they had the skills necessary locally!

The Highlands and Island development board was closed by the Tory government as it was to successful in bring in industry to the Highlands.

Now we have the lec's and all money is given to Johnstone and Johnstone to the detriment of the local populations and all local businesses.
It even sets up business ventures under the guise of the NHS to receive the grants from government and again to the detriment of local businesses!
Life scan will and does discriminate against the local population and will bring in any nationality other than use local labour!
Locals can be agency staff hire and fired, but very few are allowed full time employment unless you are taken up from South of the border or American or African Polish Lithuanian Russian or Canadian to mention but a few nationalities!

By local I mean the local inhabitants of the Highlands regardless of colour or nationality or creed!

Regards
Highlander

 

As are the beaches around Dounreay.

I suppose you do realise, fredc, that it was a UK government and UK Government appointed quangos, and the UK Governments capitalist cronies who made it so easy for businesses to parachute into Scotland before 1999 and then bugger off and leave us to suffer the mess they left behind.

Could we possibly make a WORSE job of our country than the UK has?

Yep..we probably could....but that would be our choice and our own fault...not the UK's.

Thing is, fredc, Edinburgh is ours..London is not.....London is yours.

What is done to benefit Edinburgh and Edinburgh's wealth after independence will benefit the people of Scotland, just as what is done in London and the south east benefits the people of the UK now.

The difference is that in an Independent Scotland.....those benefits won't be winging their way to London to boost UK coffers, but be staying here to improve our lives..and if we get our Governments right there will not be the vast disparities of equality in the regions as there are in the UK now.

If you have such a problem with that.....you have two options..vote no to independence....or if we get it and you are so adamantly opposed to it...go and live where it will not affect you.

But just stop stirring it on this thread by continually making off topic posts from an irrational Unionist POV...and stop continually making up bloody crap which has no other purpose but flaming! You appear to lead an even sadder life than I do.

 

I think you will find that is the same everywhere not just in Scotland. A friend of mine, a Highlander, had no problems finding work on the south coast of England. He says the bosses preferred hiring people from away as the didn't have wives and families, days off to take the kids to the doctors etc. They just lived in digs and went to work. After that he had no problems finding work in Holland.

I remember well the days they laid them off end of contract at Kishorn. They used to hit Kyle of Lochalsh before noon and by four o'clock they couldn't stand up, by six o'clock they couldn't even lie down without holding on to something. Long time ago now, back end of the 70's.

The Highlands and Islands Development Board was I believe replaced by the Highlands and Islands Enterprise Board. Were you complaining about central government spending large amounts of money trying to help the people of the Highlands?

 

Fascinating style of living you promote. People needing to leave home and tramp around without family and friends. Sure there are employers who do this. I read of people in England, living in their own homes mind you and even with young families, being forced to work all the hours god sends on 'voluntary' overtime for fear they will lose their jobs - being basically warned they will. Hence they had no time for family, getting to know their children or relaxation.

Your idea is for a nation of homeless tramps.

You still do not get what it is all about. Scottish people chose democratically to change things. The next step is Independence.

P.S. As a proclaimed crofter, I notice you spend about 24 hours a day on this site - hope your croft is not deteriorating too badly through neglect..

 

You obviously don't belong to the area......and it doesn't really matter where your friends worked or didn't work, We have a right to stay in the area of my nation....Not at the hands and whims of a civil servant from Oxford or Cambridge deciding poverty for my nation, who can work and who cannot work!
Whether someone drinks or not is a of your concern! But if the men were drinking it was either Inverness the Strath or Ulapool so your knowledge and memory isn't that good!
May I also point out....it doesn't seem very obvious that you understand....but you work to put bread on the table....slavery we can leave for those that deserve it!

Regards
Highlander

 

I'm not promoting it, just saying it is nothing peculiar to Scotland. In fact how Germany become such an economic success is because their workers worked long hours for little pay and they had a large foreign workforce. That is the model you say you want to base an independent Scotland on, that is the system you promote not me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany#West_Germany

Is that what you want for an independent Scotland? The German system?

 

Nothing wrong with my memory sunshine, I was there in Kyle of Lochalsh in the late 70s.

Where were you?

 

I suppose there were one or two in Kyle.....but not many!

I was bouncing and driving artic's in the seventies! Two full time jobs one six days a week the other seven days a week!

Regards
Highlander

 

You were justifying it because it happened other places.

Germany produce high quality products which sell worldwide. The UK under Thatcher destroyed manufacturing when she had the financial ability, with Scottish Oil revenue to invest into it. The end result, England has Corporate Globalism and and a country which has no democracy because it is at the beck and call of global operators.

I think you need to have another look at German pay

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederi...-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

Yes, I think Scotland would do better investing in good manufacturing/industry.

There was a program on German manufacturing on tv a few weeks ago. They tend to have family firms, treat the workers as valued people part of the team and offer good pay and conditions and yes that sounds all right to me.

You however stay with having people made homeless and tramping the world looking for jobs. Scotland has suffered from losing her people on a scale almost unparalleled in the last 300 years. We now have the opportunity to create a society to change all that and your offer of people being able to be homeless tramps is no reason to stay in the Union.

 

Ah so German work ethics is not slavery. You saw a program on TV some years ago so it must be true.

Now all you have to do is convince the people of Scotland and you too can be Germany.

Ever consider the possibility all those people left Scotland because they wanted to not because they had to?