How the Union benefits Scotland and the Scots.

I don't wish there be trouble, i just see it.

This is a huge change and the complications and complexity will be interesting to view. Although i do not believe it will be as easy as you like to believe. Thank you, for answering my ponderings.

 

well it is not Scotland you are seeing when you see it. What are you trying to do, stir up all the psycho's to make them feel this is what they should be doing? There is no basis on which to make such a claim of Scotland.

You appear to believe there would be civil war. That is the only conclusion I can come to when you do not believe people will accept the result of the Referendum. There is nothing on which to base that.

Apart from that obviously it is the biggest change we will have seen in 300 years. However we have already come a long way through devolution http://home.scotland.gov.uk/home The next two years will allow for discussion. However that has been going on for some years anyway and a lot of the distortions still being given by Unionists have been repudiated some time ago. For the rest, it is learning and deciding. Not too difficult for an adult nation to do.

I think you possibly find it difficult to imagine that a people can peacefully and democratically make radical change because that is what this is, democracy in action.

 

I have never expected it to be easy, I don't think any Scot does..because we know that on past UK Government performance, getting any negotiations to a fair and equitable solution with a Government which has not recognised fair and equitable for more than half of my lifetime is going to mean quite a long time between any vote, if it comes down on the side of Yes, and a settlement to allow us to go it alone.

Which, imo, is why the UK Government has imposed the Scotland Bill now to start to take effect after the vote so that, not only does the Scottish Government have to negotiate the terms of Independence, they also have to alter the whole way they work over the two years after 2014 to accommodate an imposition which is neither necessary or fair. But what is new there? Care to tell me the last time a UK Government did fair to Scotland?

Any trouble will definitely be produced by Westminster..and the Scotland bill 2012 was the flag signalling it.

 

I agree with you that any trouble will come from outside and thought that when answering General Zod but decided to leave it as he chose not to put it this way but was suggesting it would cause 'internal' divisions. Perhaps trying the 'stir up internal struggle.'

I think the problem is that people outside Scotland just do not have a clue and are still living in the past. Hence you get people like Hero trying to present every one back home in his case Ireland as a backward people who have never stepped out of their inferior 'celtic' nations. On another forum a Scot's exile worked to ridicule and degrade Scotland saying he had been on a visit to Glasgow and seen people flying flags and being completely 'nationalistic' and it made him embarrassed to even be a Scot just like Hero is embarrassed to be Irish. They seem to believe they are being so grown up and advanced but really it just shows how out of touch and 'behind' they are.

I think the problem with this thinking is that it is stereotypical thinking which has no relationship with the situation.

I thought your Irvine Welsh video gave a good summary of the situation and showed the differences between basic mind set in Scotland and England and I think the problem is that many outsiders simply do not have a clue what the situation is and so still try to rely on hateful stereotypes, pretending it is simply mindless nationalism and are totally unable to have the ability to see that it is they themselves who have been left behind. In the Wesh film for instance we still see the English spokesperson presenting the English perspective that we still want to be basically imperialistic or at the very least 'world leaders' believing this is a 'British' perspective, whereas the wars in which the UK tried to be a 'leader' have not been actions in general popular in Scotland.

So on one level I think they are ignorant,. They know English culture and they believe it is superior when in reality what is happening in Scotland has much more the potential to be for the people by the people and in that way by their own standards in reality advanced.

Possibly Scotland leaving the UK will also be seen by some outside the UK with some trepidation. After all the UK has been the US poodle for many years so it too would have something to lose if Scotland went the way of Independence and England's power was diminished. So yes, we can see the implications for ourselves and General Zod I suspect has seen the implications for others.

It is going to be a time of change for everyone but I am quite confident that Salmond has the savey to deal with the legal implications of what London may get up to.

 

I'll enlighten you.......do you need a passport now? No...so this will not be any different!

If someone doesn't want our sovereignty back, they have the democractic right to vote against it!

But..... the majority rules....this time.......okay!

So this time... unlike 1977..... we will have a voice..... and those who want the status quo, will not gerrymander the vote in there behalf!

As they did in 77! It will be a free vote and the winner can only be the Scottish nation which ever way it goes!


As all things cost money...its our money...and is the will of the people.... so our children will be educated...our old people will be looked after and we will have the wherewithall to raise ourselves, by ourselves!
So you can keep your English bueaurocracy and what ever it costs us for the courts, the Social security which is being paid out now....is worth the paying...its ours! All ours!
No need for any more charity under the barnett formula and tory whining!

Regards
Highlander

 

Another trying to frighten the weans post....I'm impressed by your endless patience myself, Oddie. I can't be bothered even discussing it with anyone outside Scotland now. Alexa has it exactly right. Scotland has moved on and is no longer interested in UK, England or being a "world power" (i.e. sticking in with the US and pretending to be a world power). I can't wait for the vote to decide it and get on with it and if we lose the vote, I'm emigrating.

 

Ach, what do you expect, Viv...the amoeba has more intelligence than Unionist posters on any forum, facebook or anywhere else on the internet.

I'm too old to emigrate.....and the only place I could go would be New Zealand,anyway, because that resembles Scotland most re scenery and climate because I bloody hate heat. Given I have never set foot on a plane or on a boat bigger than a ferry from Gills to St Margaret's Hope in my life (and then prayed there and back at every wave, and it was choppy), I'm not about to do it now.

I'm here fighting for independence till I die..never wanted or want to live anywhere else. Only three times in my life have I holidayed anywhere else but Scotland. I have actually ventured from safe country as far as Scarborough, York and Leeds, with Flower of Scotland loud on the car cassette player and the roof open, and a pocket full of Scottish currency......cut me and I bleed tartan (Fraser/MacDonald).

I am the epitome of the parochial Scot as described by posters with Unionist POV (found one who actually said we celebrated St Patrick's Day! )...bar the fact that I'm not mean, racist, sectarian, a drunk, obese, anti-English, isolationist, kilt-wearing, don't have red-hair, have a fiery temper (though I do have a slow burn leading to explosion one), play the bagpipes (though I do like listening to them) etc.

Why would we want to hang about with people who know or care so little about us?

 

And they're aggressive. I can't be bothered with it.

New Zealand might be it. It depends on his job. In recent weeks he's been offered something in Bahrain (I said no), Miami (he said no), last week it was Dubai being discussed. What would that be like for me? I wouldn't mind New Zealand though. It's always appealed. It seems to have the wide open spaces and the freedom to roam we have here, plus a lot of ex-Scots and not much crime.

You wouldn't know what it's like for insects? Mosquitoes and spiders and such?

I was in Manchester last week and they wouldn't take Scottish money from my friend. They said there's too much counterfeit about. But they say that in London as well. Lot of nonsense.

I don't want to hang about with them.

 

Can't be anything overly drastic scary stuff wise. I was friendly for a couple of years with a NZ lassie who has now gone back there to live and work..and if there had been scary stories to beat our midgies etc, she'd have been expounding about them with embellishments.

I just used to decide on my purchases.....and offer my Scottish notes as payment. If they were refused, I just left the purchases on the counter and walked out. I always found somewhere which was less arsey.

 

You may be prejudging, if don't mind me saying so.

I was pondering the scottish independance and the way my mind works. I view the problems then to possible fixes. I do not believe anything goes as planned. Too many frustrating days in the corperate sector for that.

But good luck with the vote.

As for your views with england. Life is too short to hate the english.

 

This post makes no sense.

How and what am I prejudging?

Do you really think we all expect things to run smoothly...again, do you think you're addressing the weans? (Oh by the way, "weans" = small children).

Of course we know there are going to be legions of issues, just as there were legions of issue when the UK Union was originally set up and just as there have been issues when the devolved Scottish Parliament was set up. We are capable people and hard, hard workers. Let us worry about resolving our issues.

Thank you for the good wishes.

Having said I prejudged, you have misjudged. I don't hate the English. Scottish people are sick of having to repeat that. It's not about the English. It's about a political union which does not work any more for this country.

Do people really think that after being in a union with England for hundreds of years, we are suddenly going to say we are putting an end to it because we hate the English? It's the most serious decision we are ever likely to make, not just for us but for future generations. You can trust us to consider it on a wider basis than that...

 

The time to worry about the problems Scottish independence will throw up is when it has been voted for, it seems to me. All that anyone on either side of the discussion/argument can do is guess, using their own perceptions of how the whole thing could work.

To an extent, that is why I get so hacked off with continual posts saying....what will Scotland be like after Independence.......because we simply don't know....any more than those who voted for Tories and LibDems at the last UK election knew ahead of time that there would be a coalition, the trashing of the disabled and the schmoozing of the wealthy...that those who voted for the Tories in 1979 knew that it would herald the me,me,me society...or that those who voted in Nulabour in 1997 knew they were getting Tory Party lite and that politics in the UK was about to change out of all recognition or differentiation. A plebiscite is not a vote for a Government with set out (and usually later ignored) manifesto promises....it is a vote for or against a principle....the principle of Scotland being, or not, an Independent country.

We don't know what our economy would be like....and it is hard to judge, given all the information on Scottish finances are hugged to Westminster's bosom, and there will undoubtedly be some horse-trading in negotiation after independence....but if, like in most other political divorces between countries, we start from the premise that the debts and assets are divided on a population pro-rata basis...we can guess that we'd get to keep to ourselves all the money currently raised in Scotland that we send direct to Westminster, including 100% of the oil and gas revenues from the 80%-95% (depending who you ask) of the "UK" wells in our territorial waters, the revenues from the Crown Estates in Scotland etc. We'd get 8.4% of the UK National Debt, 8.4% of UK assets, or their value instead...so technically, we would be entitled to 8.4% of the Bank of England, Foreign Embassies etc...everything bought for the UK with UK funds to which we contributed.....including boats, planes, submarines and tanks, military bases and Trident..and we can but trust that our negotiators, unlike in 1707, won't bend over the nearest chair and hand the rUK negotiators the Vaseline, while holding their other hand out for the wages of prostitution.

We do know that we will be able to shape our economy to suit our own needs, not the needs of London and the South East.....and even if, in the short/medium term, we keep the pound, we will still be able to do that. The Republic of Ireland managed to exist from their acquisition of independence until 1978 in a monetary union with sterling. Whether we will introduce our own currency in the fullness of time is something of little importance in the immediate scheme of things..but it is less than realistic for Unionists to be demanding that the day after we vote for Independence, we must have a fully fledged Central Bank and new currency ready to go just because they do foot-stamping and irrationality.

We don't know what our politics will be either.......but it is a pretty safe bet it won't be a right wing Government....Scotland hasn't voted for a right wing Government since 1955....that was the election in which the Tories in Scotland claimed to have won more than half the Scottish vote, and a majority of seats, if you care to count the six National Liberals/Liberal Unionists as Tories (which they obviously did.) What we do know is that it will be one we choose for ourselves.

And we do know that if our plan A does not succeed in achieving what we thought it would, we will come up with a Plan B.....we are that clever.

We will decide our future...by ourselves for ourselves. We will decide on our own Government and the shape of our own democracy. We will decide for ourselves if we wish to be a monarchy or a republic, be a part of the EU or NATO, if we keep nuclear weapons, take part in illegal wars etc...all things over which we have had no say, anymore than we did over our lives in 1707 when the Union Treaty was signed.

In 1707, the Earl of Seafield said 'There's ane end of ane auld sang'. In 1999, Winnie Ewing said 'The Scottish Parliament, adjourned on the 25th day of March in the year 1707, is hereby reconvened'. I hope that in 2014, we get our self-confidence back, say "Yes, Scotland" and take our country out of the Union which incorporated it into England and lost us our voice and our independent place in the world.