MH 17 Plane crash is discussed again

milorafferty · Jul 17, 2015

It was Russia that shot it down. In fact, I was there with Putin when it happened. Putin pushed the button himself. We were just standing around talking and drinking vodka when we heard a plane overhead, then Putin handed me the vodka bottle, laughed and said "Watch this..."

Yep, that's what happened.

Hoosier8 · Jul 17, 2015

milorafferty said: ↑

It was Russia that shot it down. In fact, I was there with Putin when it happened. Putin pushed the button himself. We were just standing around talking and drinking vodka when we heard a plane overhead, then Putin handed me the vodka bottle, laughed and said "Watch this..."

Yep, that's what happened.
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You only got one thing right in that whole claim, Vodka.

Ronstar · Jul 17, 2015

milorafferty said: ↑

It was Russia that shot it down. In fact, I was there with Putin when it happened. Putin pushed the button himself. We were just standing around talking and drinking vodka when we heard a plane overhead, then Putin handed me the vodka bottle, laughed and said "Watch this..."

Yep, that's what happened.
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Russia didn't do it, russian-rebels in Eastern Ukraine did.

Jeannette · Jul 18, 2015

Blinda Vaganto said: ↑

Year, but this makes you think, if they somehow managed to obtain this video, what esle evidence do they have? And what if they have proof that it was Russian millitary crew who shot down this plane? Not pro-Russian rebels but officially serving Russian soldiers. What are they going to do with this information? To bring up such accusations means to bring the confrontation with Russia the whole new level.
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Blinda if they had proof that anyone connected with Russia shot down the plane, it would have been all over the propaganda networks the same day. That they were accusing the Donbass Freedom Fighters and even Putin without being able to show an ounce of proof, means they have nothing other than their lies.

Russia knows that an American satellite was above the site, and yet Washington refuses to produce the photos. Here's the video again:

[video=youtube;9HFKD0xh7l4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HFKD0xh7l4[/video]

Ronstar · Jul 18, 2015

Jeannette said: ↑

Blinda if they had proof that anyone connected with Russia shot down the plane, it would have been all over the propaganda networks the same day. That they were accusing the Donbass Freedom Fighters and even Putin without being able to show an ounce of proof, means they have nothing other than their lies....
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there is a great deal of evidence, which you choose to ignore or deny.

the Dutch report will blame the Russian rebels.

this is why Putin doesn't want an international tribunal.

Sly Lampost · Jul 18, 2015

Ronstar said: ↑

On 22 July, a soldier revealed to an Italian reporter that fellow separatists had told his unit the aircraft had been shot down under the assumption that it was Ukrainian.[174] This information was verified and confirmed on the same day by a German newspaper.[175] Unnamed American intelligence officials stated that sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel patterns in the wreckage, voice print analysis of separatists' conversations in which they claimed credit for the strike, and photos and other data from social media sites all indicated that Russian-backed separatists had fired the missile
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German and US intelligence do not think that. They think that a rogue Ukrainian outfit had the plane shot down.

But what we have here is the use of MH17 as the focus of a anti Russian propaganda war where the truth is, as always, the casualty.

From Robert Parry:

But the propaganda linchpin to the Wests extreme anger toward Russia remains the MH-17 shoot-down, which the United States and the West continue to pin on the Russian rebels and by extension Russia and Putin. The latest examples are media reports about the Dutch crash investigation suggesting that an anti-aircraft missile, allegedly involved in destroying MH-17, was fired from rebel-controlled territory.

Yet, the U.S. mainstream media remains stunningly disinterested in the dog-not-barking question of why the U.S. intelligence community has been so quiet about its MH-17 analysis since it released a sketchy report relying mostly on social media on July 22, 2014, just five days after the shoot-down. A source briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the reason for the intelligence communitys silence is that more definitive analysis pointed to a rogue Ukrainian operation implicating one of the pro-regime oligarchs.

The source said that if this U.S. analysis were to see the light of day, the Ukrainian narrative that has supplied the international pressure on Russia would collapse. In other words, the Obama administration is giving a higher priority to keeping Putin on the defensive than to bringing the MH-17 killers to justice.
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Source

Sly Lampost · Jul 18, 2015

Ronstar said: ↑

In June 2015, Buk manufacturer, the Russian concern Almaz-Antey announced that MH17 had been downed by a 9М38М1 Buk-M1 missile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

The German Federal Intelligence Service reportedly concluded that the plane was shot down by pro-Russian separatists using a captured Ukrainian Buk system
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Oh yeah? German intelligence says does it? Perhaps you should check your sources before you allow your fingers to fly wildly over your keyboard in your haste to jump on the propaganda bandwagon to blame Russia.

The truth is far more prosaic.

Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case
October 20, 2014

Exclusive: For months, Western governments and media have accused Russia of supplying the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 killing 298 people. But now German intelligence has reportedly determined the missile came from a Ukrainian military base, writes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

The Wests case blaming Russia for the shoot-down of a Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine last July appears to be crumbling as the German foreign intelligence agency has concluded that the anti-aircraft missile battery involved came from a Ukrainian military base, according to a report by the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel.
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Source

Sly Lampost · Jul 18, 2015

Ronstar said: ↑

there is a great deal of evidence, which you choose to ignore or deny.

the Dutch report will blame the Russian rebels.

this is why Putin doesn't want an international tribunal.
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I would be astonished if the Dutch report didn't blame the Russian separatists. The Netherlands are part of NATO and there is now a NATO campaign to finger Putin and Russia for far larger geopolitical reasons.

The national security imperative is blaming and then containing Russia.

MH-17 Mystery: A New Tonkin Gulf Case?
July 17, 2015

Exclusive: In 1964, the Tonkin Gulf incident was used to justify the Vietnam War although U.S. intelligence quickly knew the facts were not what the U.S. government claimed. Now, the MH-17 case is being exploited to justify a new Cold War as U.S. intelligence again is silent about what it knows, writes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

One year ago, the world experienced what could become the Tonkin Gulf incident of World War III, the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine. As with the dubious naval clash off the coast of North Vietnam in 1964, which helped launch the Vietnam War, U.S. officials quickly seized on the MH-17 crash for its emotional and propaganda appeal – and used it to ratchet up tensions against Russia.

Shocked at the thought of 298 innocent people plunging to their deaths from 33,000 feet last July 17, the world recoiled in horror, a fury that was then focused on Russian President Vladimir Putin. With Putin’s face emblazoned on magazine covers, the European Union got in line behind the U.S.-backed coup regime in Ukraine and endorsed economic sanctions to punish Russia.

Russian-made Buk anti-missile battery.
Russian-made Buk anti-missile battery.
In the year that has followed, the U.S. government has continued to escalate tensions with Russia, supporting the Ukrainian regime in its brutal “anti-terrorism operation” that has slaughtered thousands of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. The authorities in Kiev have even dispatched neo-Nazi and ultranationalist militias, supported by jihadists called “brothers” of the Islamic State, to act as the tip of the spear. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Ukraine Merges Nazis and Islamists.”]

Raising world tensions even further, the Russians have made clear that they will not allow the ethnic Russian resistance to be annihilated, setting the stage for a potential escalation of hostilities and even a possible nuclear showdown between the United States and Russia.

But the propaganda linchpin to the West’s extreme anger toward Russia remains the MH-17 shoot-down, which the United States and the West continue to pin on the Russian rebels – and by extension – Russia and Putin. The latest examples are media reports about the Dutch crash investigation suggesting that an anti-aircraft missile, allegedly involved in destroying MH-17, was fired from rebel-controlled territory.

Yet, the U.S. mainstream media remains stunningly disinterested in the “dog-not-barking” question of why the U.S. intelligence community has been so quiet about its MH-17 analysis since it released a sketchy report relying mostly on “social media” on July 22, 2014, just five days after the shoot-down. A source briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the reason for the intelligence community’s silence is that more definitive analysis pointed to a rogue Ukrainian operation implicating one of the pro-regime oligarchs.

The source said that if this U.S. analysis were to see the light of day, the Ukrainian “narrative” that has supplied the international pressure on Russia would collapse. In other words, the Obama administration is giving a higher priority to keeping Putin on the defensive than to bringing the MH-17 killers to justice.

Like the Tonkin Gulf case, the evidence on the MH-17 case was shaky and contradictory from the start. But, in both cases, U.S. officials confidently pointed fingers at the “enemy.” President Lyndon Johnson blamed North Vietnam in 1964 and Secretary of State John Kerry implicated ethnic Russian rebels and their backers in Moscow in 2014. In both cases, analysts in the U.S. intelligence community were less certain and even reached contrary conclusions once more evidence was available.

In both cases, those divergent assessments appear to have been suppressed so as not to interfere with what was regarded as a national security priority – confronting “North Vietnamese aggression” in 1964 and “Russian aggression” in 2014. To put out the contrary information would have undermined the government’s policy and damaged “credibility.” So the facts – or at least the conflicting judgments – were hidden.

The Price of Silence

In the case of the Tonkin Gulf, it took years for the truth to finally emerge and – in the meantime – tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers and millions of Vietnamese had lost their lives. Yet, much of the reality was known soon after the Tonkin Gulf incident on Aug. 4, 1964.

Daniel Ellsberg, who in 1964 was a young Defense Department official, recounts – in his 2002 book Secrets – how the Tonkin Gulf falsehoods took shape, first with the panicked cables from a U.S. Navy captain relaying confused sonar readings and then with that false storyline presented to the American people.

As Ellsberg describes, President Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara announced retaliatory airstrikes on Aug. 4, 1964, telling “the American public that the North Vietnamese, for the second time in two days, had attacked U.S. warships on ‘routine patrol in international waters’; that this was clearly a ‘deliberate’ pattern of ‘naked aggression’; that the evidence for the second attack, like the first, was ‘unequivocal’; that the attack had been ‘unprovoked’; and that the United States, by responding in order to deter any repetition, intended no wider war.”

Ellsberg wrote: “By midnight on the fourth, or within a day or two, I knew that each one of those assurances was false.” Yet, the White House made no effort to clarify the false or misleading statements. The falsehoods were left standing for several years while Johnson sharply escalated the war by dispatching a half million soldiers to Vietnam.

In the MH-17 case, we saw something similar. Within three days of the July 17, 2014 crash, Secretary Kerry rushed onto all five Sunday talk shows with his rush to judgment, citing evidence provided by the Ukrainian government through social media. On NBC’s “Meet the Press,” David Gregory asked, “Are you bottom-lining here that Russia provided the weapon?”

Kerry: “There’s a story today confirming that, but we have not within the Administration made a determination. But it’s pretty clear when – there’s a build-up of extraordinary circumstantial evidence. I’m a former prosecutor. I’ve tried cases on circumstantial evidence; it’s powerful here.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Kerry’s Latest Reckless Rush to Judgment.”]

Two days later, on July 22, the Director of National Intelligence authorized the release of a brief report essentially repeating Kerry’s allegations. The DNI’s report also cited “social media” as implicating the ethnic Russian rebels, but the report stopped short of claiming that the Russians gave the rebels the sophisticated Buk (or SA-11) surface-to-air missile that the report indicated was used to bring down the plane.

Instead, the report cited “an increasing amount of heavy weaponry crossing the border from Russia to separatist fighters in Ukraine”; it claimed that Russia “continues to provide training – including on air defense systems to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia”; and its noted the rebels “have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems, downing more than a dozen aircraft in the months prior to the MH17 tragedy, including two large transport aircraft.”

Yet, despite the insinuation of Russian guilt, what the public report didn’t say – which is often more significant than what is said in these white papers – was that the rebels had previously only used short-range shoulder-fired missiles to bring down low-flying military planes, whereas MH-17 was flying at around 33,000 feet, far beyond the range of those weapons.

The assessment also didn’t say that U.S. intelligence, which had been concentrating its attention on eastern Ukraine during those months, detected the delivery of a Buk missile battery from Russia, despite the fact that a battery consists of four 16-foot-long missiles that are hauled around by trucks or other large vehicles.

Rising Doubts

I was told that the absence of evidence of such a delivery injected the first doubts among U.S. analysts who also couldn’t say for certain that the missile battery that was suspected of firing the fateful missile was manned by rebels. An early glimpse of that doubt was revealed in the DNI briefing for several mainstream news organizations when the July 22 assessment was released.

The Los Angeles Times reported, “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “The Mystery of a Ukrainian ‘Defector.’”]

The Russians also challenged the rush to judgment against them, although the U.S. mainstream media largely ignored – or ridiculed – their presentation. But the Russians at least provided what appeared to be substantive data, including alleged radar readings showing the presence of a Ukrainian jetfighter “gaining height” as it closed to within three to five kilometers of MH-17.

Russian Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov also called on the Ukrainian government to explain the movements of its Buk systems to sites in eastern Ukraine and why Kiev’s Kupol-M19S18 radars, which coordinate the flight of Buk missiles, showed increased activity leading up to the July 17 shoot-down.

The Ukrainian government countered by asserting that it had “evidence that the missile which struck the plane was fired by terrorists, who received arms and specialists from the Russian Federation,” according to Andrey Lysenko, spokesman for Ukraine’s Security Council, using Kiev’s preferred term for the rebels.

On July 29, amid this escalating rhetoric, the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, a group of mostly retired U.S. intelligence officials, called on President Barack Obama to release what evidence the U.S. government had, including satellite imagery.

“As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information,” the group wrote. “As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence.”

But the Obama administration failed to make public any intelligence information that would back up its earlier suppositions.

Then, in early August, I was told that some U.S. intelligence analysts had begun shifting away from the original scenario blaming the rebels and Russia to one focused more on the possibility that extremist elements of the Ukrainian government were responsible, funded by one of Ukraine’s rabidly anti-Russian oligarchs. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Flight 17 Shoot-down Scenario Shifts”and “Was Putin Targeted for Mid-air Assassination?”]

Last October, Der Spiegel reported that the German intelligence service, the BND, also had concluded that Russia was not the source of the missile battery – that it had been captured from a Ukrainian military base – but the BND still blamed the rebels for firing it. The BND also concluded that photos supplied by the Ukrainian government about the MH-17 tragedy “have been manipulated,” Der Spiegel reported.

And, the BND disputed Russian government claims that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to MH-17, the magazine said, reporting on the BND’s briefing to a parliamentary committee on Oct. 8, 2014. But none of the BND’s evidence was made public — and I was subsequently told by a European official that the evidence was not as conclusive as the magazine article depicted. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case.”]

Dog Still Doesn’t Bark

When the Dutch Safety Board investigating the crash issued an interim report in mid-October, it answered few questions, beyond confirming that MH-17 apparently was destroyed by “high-velocity objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside.” The 34-page Dutch report was silent on the “dog-not-barking” issue of whether the U.S. government had satellite surveillance that revealed exactly where the supposed ground-to-air missile was launched and who fired it.

In January, when I re-contacted the source who had been briefed by the U.S. analysts, the source said their thinking had not changed, except that they believed the missile may have been less sophisticated than a Buk, possibly an SA-6, and that the attack may have also involved a Ukrainian jetfighter firing on MH-17.

Since then there have been occasional news accounts about witnesses reporting that they did see a Ukrainian fighter plane in the sky and others saying they saw a missile possibly fired from territory then supposedly controlled by the rebels (although the borders of the conflict zone at that time were very fluid and the Ukrainian military was known to have mobile anti-aircraft missile batteries only a few miles away).

But the larger dog-not-barking question is why the U.S. intelligence community has clammed up for nearly one year, even after I reported that I was being told that U.S. analysts had veered off in a different direction – from the initial blame-the-Russians approach – toward one focusing on a rogue Ukrainian attack.

For its part, the DNI’s office has cited the need for secrecy even as it continues to refer to its July 22 report. But didn’t DNI James Clapper waive any secrecy privilege when he rushed out a report five days after the MH-17 shoot-down? Why was secrecy asserted only after the U.S. intelligence community had time to thoroughly review its photographic and electronic intelligence?

Over the past 11 months, the DNI’s office has offered no updates on the initial assessment, with a DNI spokeswoman even making the absurd claim that U.S. intelligence has made no refinements of its understanding about the tragedy since July 22, 2014.

If what I’ve been told is true, the reason for this silence would likely be that a reversal of the initial rush to judgment would be both embarrassing for the Obama administration and detrimental to an “information warfare” strategy designed to keep the Russians on the defensive.

But if that’s the case, President Barack Obama may be acting even more recklessly than President Johnson did in 1964. As horrific as the Vietnam War was, a nuclear showdown with Russia could be even worse.
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Source

Ronstar · Jul 18, 2015

Sly Lampost said: ↑

I would be astonished if the Dutch report didn't blame the Russian separatists....
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all the evidence points to the rebels being responsible.

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Sly Lampost said: ↑

Oh yeah? German intelligence says does it? Perhaps you should check your sources before you allow your fingers to fly wildly over your keyboard in your haste to jump on the propaganda bandwagon to blame Russia.

The truth is far more prosaic.

Source
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haha!!!

your source links to this article, which says the German Intelligence Services blame the russian rebels.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...an-separatists-for-mh17-downing-a-997972.html

funny how your link is really just an advertisement for Robert Parry's new book, costs only $34!!! buy now!!!

Jeannette · Jul 18, 2015

Sly Lampost said: ↑

German and US intelligence do not think that. They think that a rogue Ukrainian outfit had the plane shot down.

But what we have here is the use of MH17 as the focus of a anti Russian propaganda war where the truth is, as always, the casualty.

From Robert Parry:

Source
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Robert Parry also claimed in one of his first articles on the shoot down that a murky company called Burisma Holdings was handing out big bucks in Washington to keep the blame on Putin. In a later article he traced it to Igor Kolomoisky who has his own 'Nazi' armies in Ukraine. Kolomoisky also owns airlines and is quite familiar with the Amsterdam and Kiev airports...and their security as well.

What the propaganda mechanists will now do, or have been doing is discredit Robert Parry who is well known as an investigative reporter in the same way they have been trying to discredit the top expert on Russia Prof. Stephen Cohen, and Reagan's former economic minister Dr. Craig Roberts. ..if you can believe it.

Ronstar · Jul 18, 2015

Jeannette said: ↑

Robert Parry also claimed in one of his first articles on the shoot down that a murky company called Burisma Holdings was handing out big bucks in Washington to keep the blame on Putin.....
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Robert Parry links to an article in Der Spiegel where he claims the German Security Services say the Ukranians brought down the plane.

when you click on the link, it says the exact opposite!!!

plus Parry is selling a book, for only $34!!!!

buy now!!

Jeannette · Jul 18, 2015

Sly Lampost said: ↑

I would be astonished if the Dutch report didn't blame the Russian separatists. The Netherlands are part of NATO and there is now a NATO campaign to finger Putin and Russia for far larger geopolitical reasons.

The national security imperative is blaming and then containing Russia.

Source
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There might be more to it than just covering up Kiev and blaming Russia for propaganda purposes. It might involve some rogue nation with a political grievance towards Malaysia, or a criminal group within that nation. Otherwise why would Malaysia conduct both jet losses as one investigation?

Ronstar · Jul 18, 2015

Jeannette said: ↑

There might be more to it than just covering up Kiev and blaming Russia for propaganda purposes. It might involve some rogue nation with a political grievance towards Malaysia, or a criminal group within that nation. Otherwise why would Malaysia conduct both jet losses as one investigation?
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silly conspiracy theory with zero evidence, just baseless and very biased speculation.

all the real evidence, points to the russian rebels.

Jeannette · Jul 18, 2015

Sly Lampost said: ↑

I would be astonished if the Dutch report didn't blame the Russian separatists. The Netherlands are part of NATO and there is now a NATO campaign to finger Putin and Russia for far larger geopolitical reasons.
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There are other reasons to distrust the Netherlands. One of them would be that Royal Dutch Shell was heavily involved in that area of Ukraine for fracking together with Burisma Holdings Kolomoisky's firm. Also the passengers boarded the plane in Amsterdam, and if the intent was to shoot it down, the security might have known who was on it and who wasn't.

It's only a personal suspicion of mine, so take it as you will.

Eleuthera · Jul 18, 2015

Ronstar said: ↑

all these conspiracy theories, are getting kinda pathetic.
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Because they're so damn true?

Ronstar · Jul 18, 2015

Eleuthera said: ↑

Because they're so damn true?
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lol...cause they're soo damn pathetic and baseless!!!

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Jeannette said: ↑

There are other reasons to distrust the Netherlands. One of them would be that Royal Dutch Shell was heavily involved in that area of Ukraine for fracking together with Burisma Holdings Kolomoisky's firm. Also the passengers boarded the plane in Amsterdam, and if the intent was to shoot it down, the security might have known who was on it and who wasn't.

It's only a personal suspicion of mine, so take it as you will.

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again, silly conspiracy theories with no supporting evidence

Eleuthera · Jul 18, 2015

Ronstar said: ↑

lol...cause they're soo damn pathetic and baseless!!!

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again, silly conspiracy theories with no supporting evidence
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Then why pay them any mind?

Ronstar · Jul 18, 2015

Eleuthera said: ↑

Then why pay them any mind?
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i don't like propaganda

Eleuthera · Jul 18, 2015

Ronstar said: ↑

i don't like propaganda
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As long as I can change the channel, I enjoy watching it just to check it out and see what end is sought.

Sly Lampost · Jul 19, 2015

Ronstar said: ↑

all the evidence points to the rebels being responsible.

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haha!!!

your source links to this article, which says the German Intelligence Services blame the russian rebels.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...an-separatists-for-mh17-downing-a-997972.html

funny how your link is really just an advertisement for Robert Parry's new book, costs only $34!!! buy now!!!

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Shoot the messenger - ignore the message he carries. Yup, this is you in a nutshell.

The source of the article was Robert Parry, an award winning American investigative reporter who has first class intelligence sources in the USA and in his articles has spoken of these numerous times - because they conflict with what the White House and various pols state publicly in connection with MH17. Parry has had top intelligence sources since before he broke the Iran-Contra story for AP and Newsweek - plus many other important stories.

You, Ronstar, can try to diss him as much as you like in your dishonest and twisted approach to facts and stories, but others here will continue to regard reporters like Parry as credible. Whereas everyone else on this forum knows you're not. You're just a flame-bating troll and repetitive nay-sayer.

ararmer1919 · Jul 19, 2015

Sly Lampost said: ↑

Shoot the messenger - ignore the message he carries. Yup, this is you in a nutshell.

The source of the article was Robert Parry, an award winning American investigative reporter who has first class intelligence sources in the USA and in his articles has spoken of these numerous times - because they conflict with what the White House and various pols state publicly in connection with MH17. Parry has had top intelligence sources since before he broke the Iran-Contra story for AP and Newsweek - plus many other important stories.

You, Ronstar, can try to diss him as much as you like in your dishonest and twisted approach to facts and stories, but others here will continue to regard reporters like Parry as credible. Whereas everyone else on this forum knows you're not. You're just a flame-bating troll and repetitive nay-sayer.
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Mods! This guy called someone a troll!!!

But seriously though. Nobody but paid Russian propagandists actually think Robert Perry is a credible source. Deal with it. He was big news 30 years ago. He lost that spot light and now he's seen his chance, pathetic though it may be, to get back in it.

Sly Lampost · Jul 19, 2015

Jeannette said: ↑

There might be more to it than just covering up Kiev and blaming Russia for propaganda purposes. It might involve some rogue nation with a political grievance towards Malaysia, or a criminal group within that nation. Otherwise why would Malaysia conduct both jet losses as one investigation?
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Yes, I tend to agree. Usually in these things there are a confluence of reasons to do something (the two birds with one stone approach). The fact that a Malaysian aircraft was chosen again, ultimately causing Malaysian Airlines to file for bankruptcy (see HERE).

So, why would elements in the US want to punish Malaysia? Well, it seems pretty clear that there was some revenge involved and also a "don't f*ck with Uncle Sam" in all this, because back in 2011 Malaysia was the only nation in the world that dared to hold an independent and international war crimes trial on the US-UK attack on Iraq and found George W Bush and Tony Blair guilty of war crimes using the Nuremberg principles as their methodology (see HERE). Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld (and others) were later found guilty of torture.

Sly Lampost · Jul 19, 2015

ararmer1919 said: ↑

Mods! This guy called someone a troll!!!

But seriously though. Nobody but paid Russian propagandists actually think Robert Perry is a credible source. Deal with it. He was big news 30 years ago. He lost that spot light and now he's seen his chance, pathetic though it may be, to get back in it.
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Nobody? What a laugh.

And the rest of your statements are simply uninformed nonsense. Like Ronstar, you can't be bothered with even the bare minimum of research to support your balls.

AboveAlpha · Jul 19, 2015

MH 17 was accidentally shot down by a Russian Speaking Speratist Group that Spetsnaz allowed....STUPIDLY....to run a Russian Made BUK SAM Launcher.

The United States has complete SATELLITE RECON. SATURATION of this area of the world and the NSA was forced by Obama to release the taped communications between the Seperatists that actually shot Mh17 down to their Spetsnaz bosses and the NSA has recordings of Spetsnaz to the Big Russian Military Brass and them from them to Putin's Aid and then all the way to Putin.

We also have the Missile Tracking as it was launched from Seperatist Terrirory.

It was a mistake as Spetsnaz had a bunch of ill trained MORON'S shooting SAM's at a target they did not have the training to properly identify.

Still...these MORON'S should have known that a radar return THAT LARGE AND FLYING AT 33,000 FEET AT 550 MPH could never have been a Ukrainian Su-25 as the Ukrainian Su-25's had been flying low level Attack Runs in support of Ukrainain Forces for days.

It was a mistake....but Putin should come right out and admit they never should have placed such weapons in the hands of IDIOTS!!

AboveAlpha

Lord of Planar · Jul 19, 2015

AboveAlpha said: ↑

The United States has complete SATELLITE RECON. SATURATION of this area of the world and the NSA was forced by Obama to release the taped communications between the Seperatists that actually shot Mh17 down to their Spetsnaz bosses and the NSA has recordings of Spetsnaz to the Big Russian Military Brass and them from them to Putin's Aid and then all the way to Putin.

AboveAlpha
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I have never seen proof of this. Only hear-say.

Explicit evidence please.

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