The claim of Hell is not real.

The Bible does not really teach of any burning HELL as the word in the Bible only means the grave or garbage dump where they use to throw or bury dead bodies.

Many religions beside Christianity has taught people this wrong barbaric idea as their religious doctrine, but it is not real.

1) Any God that burns people for any reason is not only a monster but a criminal and a sinner and an evil entity.

2) Burning people is not "forgiveness" as it is rather the opposite of forgiveness.

3) Burning people is not "just" as it is rather the opposite of justice.

4) Putting any person into a Hell link is not justice and it can not be.

5) To "love" means no pain and no more hurting for anyone, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." KJV. Link here = Revelation 21:4.

God is love, link = 1 John 4:8, and God does not hurt people, and that means no one ever goes to any hell.

Everyone is a sinner at various degrees and depth, and there is no one as righteous.

Nobody goes to some fire and torment of any hell, and the saying of "Hell on earth" in this lifetime now is far more accurate.

In the end everyone gets saved and not even one sinner nor one evil sheep gets lost or left out because salvation is for all of mankind.

Jesus said "Love thy enemies" just as God loves His enemies, link = Matthew 5:43-48, so love does not burn people and love does not hurt people, and that means not even those that are sinners and enemies.

The plan is to have a great salvation, and it would not be great if some people were excluded.

 

Of course it's not.....

The idea of hell was created when the christians were trying you convert the Norse.

Hell is the ancient Norse Goddess of Torture.

The Christians made up a place of torment and torture and named it after her to frighten the Norse into conversion.

 

I have an entire book about the concept of Hell. The Hell we know is really a medeival concept.
It's an amalgamation of a lot of things, some Judaic and some pagan.

There is Sheol in Judaism, something most Jews don't take seriously today. Sheol is a remnant of the Sumerian mythic afterlife-- and it sucks. You eat dust and live underground. And EVERYBODY goes. It wasn't until the Egyptians came along, particularly during the reign of the Osiris Cult, that any positive afterlife came about for good people.

In the bible, there's a place (I forget the name) that's a place of fire and horrible smells. It actually refers to a literal place on earth. The Hebrews used to deny criminals of some sorts religious burial and toss them into a pit. This pit became a cesspool of disease, so they burned the bodies.

The Book of Revalations is the only place where you see a lot of detail about eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation in Christianity. According to Bart Ehrman, the theologist who lost his faith from learning too much about it, that book has no good reason to have been included in the canon. In other words it got there due to church politics. Think about how much the Religious Right references this book and it should come as no shock.

The Greeks and Romans had Hades, an undergound place, mostly miserable, for the dead. Christians used this imagery early on to convert Greeks and Romans.

And then there's Hel.

 

How do you interpret this verse?


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather (A)fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in [a](B)hell.

 

Destruction of the soul and body.
That's quite different from the popular conception of Hell (eternal suffering).

 

So Hitler, sadam, and stalin get off easy? So God has no justice system?

 

Yes. And there's this, it's obvious implications so at odds with the common (orthodox) interpretation of it:

John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Thsi simplies that eternal life is only for the believer. If you do not believe, you die. There is nothing in here at all that implies eternal torment for the failed soul. According to John 3:16, failed souls are simply discarded.

 

You're discarding the other scriptures that speak of the weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

When does the Christian necessity of forgiveness end? Isn't it enough that they can do no more harm and will not enjoy eternal life? What could truly be gained by torturing them eternally other than to feed the base human emotions of the "good" dead (who, being "good" shouldn't be giving in to those base emotions)?

From Revelations.
I covered that.
Revelations was a letter written hundreds of years after Jesus' life and was no more deserving of being included in the canon than the other apocrypha. It was written by a guy named John, not St. John.

Looking at the early history of the church, it's obvious this book was added for political reasons, either favoritism of a church official or to create further incentive to converts.

 

Hell is real.

I have no idea why the concept of consequence produces such a profound fear in atheists?

I mean, what a scary thing:

a. If you live an imperfect life, but try your best to do what is right and repent those things you do wrong along the way ... be an honorable person, you will go to heaven.

b. Live a villianous life of Sin, violence, exploitation, denial, meaness, etc., and you will be face the consequences of what you sew.

Even atheists think there is something called universal rights, but for some reason, when people throughout history have trampled them and faced rebellion and denouncement as a result .... we are afraid of the concept of hell because it is mean spirited ... and seems to reflect reality quite well?

I think Hell to atheists is just another concept they can twist and spin to attack other people. Its not about hell at all, it is about bad mouthing other people in order to derive self worth.

And that behavior, whether it be temporal or eternal, has consequences. Its not an accident that people don't like atheists who spew deliberately spun crap.

 

Hell is real.

I have no idea why the concept of consequence produces such a profound fear in atheists?

I mean, what a scary thing:

a. If you live an imperfect life, but try your best to do what is right and repent those things you do wrong along the way ... be an honorable person, you will go to heaven.

b. Live a villianous life of Sin, violence, exploitation, denial, meaness, etc., and you will be face the consequences of what you sew.

Even atheists think there is something called universal rights, but for some reason, when people throughout history have trampled them and faced rebellion and denouncement as a result .... we are afraid of the concept of hell because it is mean spirited ... and seems to reflect reality quite well?

I think Hell to atheists is just another concept they can twist and spin to attack other people. Its not about hell at all, it is about bad mouthing other people in order to derive self worth.

And that behavior, whether it be temporal or eternal, has consequences. Its not an accident that people don't like atheists who spew deliberately spun crap.

 

I have forgiven all of the above, but has God? Now from your earlier posts i'm going to ask, are you christian?

 

I have forgiven all of the above, but has God? Now from your earlier posts i'm going to ask, are you christian?

 

Elijah - Hitler, Saddam & Stalin all tortured people! The people they tortured were in severe pain until they died. You are saying that God is much worse, his torture is eternal and far worse than anything Hitler, Sadam and Stalin ever did. Theirs was short lived, his is eternal.

 

Most "sins" or bad deeds are done with good intentions. Many people don't believe in God, not because they have a desire to be wicked or in denial, but because they just truly don't believe he is real.

To my knowledge, in Christianity, even in some of the more lenient versions like Lutheranism, lacking faith is pretty much the ultimate factor in someone going to Hell.

That's MY problem with Hell.

 

So now 'popular conceptions' are classified as validations of something?

 

Fear is the greatest motivator.

 

I don't think atheists are afraid of consequences. I think that they just don't see those consequences outliving them. That certainly does not preclude them living honourable lives and eschewing violence, exploitation etc. Atheists dont' call it sin, they just call it criminal behaviour.

As for the concept of hell, I think atheists merely think that its part of some religions dogma, and has absolutely no effect on their lives. They live honourable lives not out of fear of eternal retribution, but because they value honour and integrity.

 

God loves all of his children equally. God is all forgiving and all-merciful. If you accept these gifts from God, and make them your own compassion then you will have heaven on Earth. If you do not, then you will wander in hell until you do so. Hell is a place of your own making and you may leave whenever you want to. Sometimes, one slides back into it. We are, after all, human.

 

Absolute delusion on your part. If you really believe that or presume to know that atheists are not afraid of consequences, then if you are an atheist, then pick up a gun and go shoot a cop. Whatsamatta ? Afraid of the consequences????? Now let us hear the rationalizations.

So, you do fear the consequences when the consequences are relevant to "criminal behavior"... well, 'criminal behavior' relates to some 'law' which makes a particular behavior a 'criminal behavior'. Which particular set of laws are you referencing that would name something as a 'criminal behavior'?

What is your own private and personal interpretation of "honour and integrity"? If 'hell' is just a part of "some religions dogma", then why do you concern yourself with other people talking about 'hell' and some actually believing in the existence of 'hell'?

 

So be good so you get a reward in the end? Perhaps not doing immoral acts is it's own reward. You are saying we should set up a moral system that bribes people to be good so they will get eternal bliss later. If you didn't get the prize at the end, would you still try to be a moral person?

Um. Christian theology says anyone who is not a Christian will go to hell (under most interpretations). According to this, Ghandi goes to hell. Anyone who shares a different religion goes to hell. It isn't about works under Christianity, it's about grace, which is partially what makes it so suspect morally. Jeffrey Dahmer could repent at the end of his life and get eternal bliss, while Ghandi suffers unimaginable torture that never ends.

Also on a side note, the idea of hell seems like the fallacy known as appeal to force http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adbacula.html. It's called the believe or burn philosophy!

 

so they deserve to be let off?

 

Christians that want to discard the belief in hell will often talk about wanting to focus on the positive teachings of Jesus Christ in the Sermon on the Mount rather than the "doom and gloom" of Final Judgement and eternal punishment. Ironically though, nowhere is hell mentioned more in the Bible then in the Sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 5:22- But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:29-30- If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, but it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members that your whole body go into hell.

While it is true that God is love. One shouldn't think of Hell as simply a place God sends you to suffer for an eternity if you have been bad. Hell is simply being entirely cut off from God's love. It is the sinner that chooses it as a consequence of his actions. By not choosing to follow God's commandments, he has chosen hell.

 

It's a small town in Michigan.

It doesn't. Really it just irritates us, because it means that a bunch of people who like to go around talking about "love" believe we deserve to burn alive for all eternity.
Most of us have no such sadistic beliefs about Christians.
Hell, even the people Christians refer to as "atheists who committed mass murder" just wanted them to die.
Most of us just want them to quit demonizing us and the more fundamentalist ones to stop getting in the way of sustaining the planet!

I'm under the impression that God is supposed to be above all the worldly stuff, thus not reflective of reality. If he does reflect a bleak reality, why is he worthy of worship?
Fear?

Hey, we're not the ones who came up with the idea.
It's your second most annoying self-righteous concept that rubs us wrong.
The first is the idea that "faith is required to do good works."
Evangelical Christians come up with concepts that call us evil (incapable of actual good works anyway) and say we deserve to suffer eternally.
Are we supposed to not point out why these beliefs suck?

I'm not a Christian anymore. And on the other point, if God is incapable of forgiveness that a human is capable of, why should he be worthy of worship?

I don't understand what you're asking.
In practical terms, popular conceptions are what compose a religion. You can go on about obscure verses or theological points all you want, but it's popular conception that defines a religion.
If you're going to speak in general terms, you're speaking of the general population.
Some Christians don't believe in Hell at all and many believe it something different than an eternal place of torture. They are not the majority as far as I know. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be pleasantly surprised.

Are you claiming to read minds?

As to your claims about consequences, there's a big flaw.
No one is afraid of consequences that are not credible. Are you afraid of angering Zeuss by not making the proper sacrifice, getting struck by lightning?

Sure I'm afraid of prison (though that is not the reason I don't kill or steal; it's more likely the reason people avoid committing petty crimes because prison isn't worth it). But prison is real.

That isn't a reasonable question.
They're dead. If they cease to exist, they can do no harm. They don't know suffering but they also don't know pleasure.
And if we were to believe in pure retribution, wouldn't their Hell be up once they suffered as much as all the people they tortured collectively? That's how Hindus would see it. Makes more sense (though I'm a utilitarian and am fine with them just being gone).

Also, if I understand Christianity right, the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin were not why they would go to Hell. They go to Hell for their disbelief. Without faith, one sin is enough to condemn them.
In other words, I deserve to suffer as much as them in the eyes of God.
So do you, but you get let off on cronyism (that's what the faith thing really seems to mean).
This is the kind of stuff that boggles and infuriates us about the concept.

I do not think faith is truly a matter of choice.
Since all people are sinners and sin is only forgiven through faith, people are condemned on the basis of something they do not choose.

That brings us to the third most irritating belief in evangelical Christianity:
that lack of faith is a conscious choice to defy God.