Israeli Mayor wants East Jerusalem youths shot for stone-throwing

Anyone knowledgeable about history of conflict knows this and is a deflection from Israeli abuses like house demolition, constant settler attacks,etc which are also well documented; neither side is innocent. Here is a crazy idea what about both sides treat each other well?

 

Hundreds of Israeli Jews and Arabs gathered in Jerusalem tonight calling for international observers at the Al-Aqsa compound
In response to the current round of violence, the peaceful protesters asked the Israeli government to end to the weeks of violence. The head of the Meretz party, MK Zahava Gal-On, demanded that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu not to reject the French proposal to deploy international observers.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-rally-for-peace-in-jerusalem-beersheba/
Netanyahu claims East Jerusalem, including the Al-Aqsa compound is Israel's business and no one else's. I'm afraid the future for Palestinians looks as bleak as the past 38 years of brutal occupation.

 

Israel... my friend <occupies its own realm MINUS 77% that was surreptitiously given to Jordan by the Brits... Jordan is a fiction and has no leg to stand on.

OTH... The local Arabs are <occupying part of Israel today> there is no such a thing called Palestinian for this nomenclature was coined in 1964 by Arafat the Egyptian born.

 

the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to the Arabs, many decades before 1964.

 

Baloney!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not exclusively to the Arabs... Everyone during the Mandate period 1917 - 1948 (30 Years) was Palestinian (short of the Mandate for Palestine)... The Brits also received a Mandate for Mesopotamia I fail to read that <the now called Iraqis> Call themselves <Mesopotamian>...

Before that... during the 400 years of Ottoman Rule there was no denomination called Palestine... the Turks would not allow it!

 

The Palestinian's could get everything they want if they called up the U.S. State Dept. and just said...."OK...we want to recognize Israel's right to exist and we want to follow the Road Map to Peace."

The United States would force the Israeli's to make peace as long as the Palestinian's did this and Palestine would eventually become a state.

But hey....as long as the Palestinian Leadership keeps getting money to steal in the firm of International Aid....they don't want peace.

AboveAlpha

 

Good idea. Let's start with returning to 1948 and the Palestinians rescinding their declaration of war. Then they can take the violent destruction of Israel off their charter and make it defacto for a few years to prove they really mean it.

Run with that one for a awhile and see how it works. If it does then Israel, if they choose can talk about pulling out a few settlements so that if both sides actually sit down with peace in their official agenda making peace, with the ending of the legal occupation can be more easilu facilitiated as a basis of trust has been shown.

 

As already pointed out Israeli governments including right wing view them as amended(with official PA charter on Israeli foreign ministry website stating that) including people like Bibi, Natan Sharanksy, etc. right wing Israelis. The last time both sides sat down was last year with American official involved with talks blaming for the most part Israeli failure.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-envoy-to-resign-after-blaming-settlements-for-talks-failure/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4515821,00.html

 

A third possibility is for Israel to re conquer these Areas, and this time deny the Arabs anything they dreamed of by the supposedly <demise> of Israel.
a) Make them swear allegiance to Israel or pick and follow world Arabs to Europe.

 

That would be ethnic cleansing(no Israeli government even right wing(they seem content with creeping annexation and increasing actions like house demolition which along with other actions like settlers constantly attacking Arabs is why long term this violence will never end as long as occupation continues; if someone destroyed your house(leaving you homeless) if someone destroyed your livelihood(settlers often destroy olive grooves which are for many Arabs in West Bank their livelihood), note that settlers also threaten Arab lives with 24 Arabs in West Bank killed and 308 injured by settlers between 2004-2011 and 93(roughly for 2009-2013 each year) attacks causing Arabs in West Bank to be injured, how would you react? how would you expect an average person to react to that? If you react to this by accusing me of supporting violence that's not what I'm saying, I"m just asking you how would you react and how do you expert an average person to react to these experiences which many Arabs living in West Bank are subject to, Ehud Barak sort of answered question in 1998 when during an interview he said "I were a Palestinian at the right age, I would have joined one of the terrorist organizations at a certain stage." ) would do that since everyone including the West would stop supporting Israel) sparking turning conflict from lone wolf attacks into regional war with Arab/Muslim world. The best out of not really any good options would be what those like famed pilot and former Aman(military intelligence head) Amos Yadlan and Kulanu MK Michael Oren have advocated before withdraw to the fence and Jordan valley to make the fence the border until an arrangement can be negotiated(probably combined with another operation defensive shield to dismantle Tanzim, Martyr Brigade, and Hamas units in West bank, makes sense to remove the extremists from another side while you dismantle extremist communities like Yitzhar, Itamar, etc.). That is the only way to not have this situation of apartheid in West Bank or have a bi-national state that no one wants.
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/32678
http://www.globalresearch.ca/settle...ign-of-terror-on-unarmed-palestinians/5366169
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ehud_Barak

 

this would be a war crime and would lead to Israel's total isolation.

if Israel went forward and attempted genocide/ethnic cleansing, there would be massacres against Jews throughout the world.

 

World Jewry that backed Israel would have nothing to fear...
But J Street and the New Israel Fund will have to fend for themselves.

 

we would have a lot to fear, if Israel engages in ethnic cleansing/genocide.

we would pay the price if they commit such crimes.

 

World Jewry would not back Israel if they did that(again Israeli government will not do this and seem content with creeping annexation). Most American Jews don't back greater Israel too with seven in ten American Jews identifying with or leaning towards democrats. Also nearly half(6 million out of 14 millon Jews world wide) of world Jewelry lives in Israel. Obviously sparking a wide war with Arab/Islamic world by ethnic cleansing causing death of many Jewish and Arab lives would obviously concern world Jewelry.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/bill_boyarsky/article/pew_finds_jews_mostly_liberal

You also ignored my question before
"if someone destroyed your house(leaving you homeless) if someone destroyed your livelihood(settlers often destroy olive grooves which are for many Arabs in West Bank their livelihood), note that settlers also threaten Arab lives with 24 Arabs in West Bank killed and 308 injured by settlers between 2004-2011 and 93(roughly for 2009-2013 each year) attacks causing Arabs in West Bank to be injured, how would you react? how would you expect an average person to react to that?"
can you answer this question?

 

Recently I finished reading the Wall recently(very good book recommend it) it's a fictional historical novel about the ghetto in Warsaw during WW2 and one of its passages struck me. The passage that struck me is one of the conversations between Noach Levinson(modeled after historian Emanuel Ringelblum) in a conversation with Zilberzweig(one of the leaders(in this fictional historic novel) during 1943 Warsaw revolt against the Nazis and leads Warsaw branch of Hashomer Hatzair; a Socialist Zionist Jewish youth movement established in 1913 ) says

"Zilberzweig-No. That is wrong. You see, what has really happened is that I have decided that nationalism is not enough for a man to live by. The "strength" or "hardness" these people thought they saw in me, before, that was artificial: that was my nationalism.
N.L:-This surprises me. Aren't you a Zionist by profession? Isn't nationalism your career?
Zilberzweig-Zionism has been my only profession. I guess you can say that my "strength" and "hardness" have been professional with me most of my life.
N.L..: Why this change?
Zilberzweig:-I don't know. Maybe just seeing younger men than I, the Yitzhok Katz, who were also "stronger" and "harder" and more nationalistic than I... It came to me that extreme nationalism can be as frightful in a Jew as in a me that extreme nationalism can be as frightful in a Jew as in a me that extreme nationalism can be as frightful in a Jew as in a German. What does Nazi stand for, anyhow?-National Socialism. I should not like to survive the ghetto and go to Palestine, only to fall into the hands of Jewish Nazis.
N.L.-Do you mean to say you abandon the hope of getting to Palestine because of such a ridiculous fear?
Zilberzweig-For myself, I abandoned hope years ago-for other reasons..No, I have not abandoned the idea that the Jewish ethical tradition is worth preserving-it is the basis of all Western monotheism,after all;...the Lord Our God is One God-and that the best way of preserving it is to give it a home. No, I have rebelled only against excessive nationalism. The religious zealot ends by being)because of his excesses) anti-religious. In the case of the Jews, the national zealot can likewise become anti-religious- and even, in the consequences of his deeds, anti-Jewish"

The danger of extreme nationalism was also noted by founder of Zionism; Theodore Herzl in his novel called Altneuland(translate to "The old new land") which described his vision of a Jewish state noting "an attempt by a fanatical rabbi(for many that brings Kahane to their minds) to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel."[49]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl#Literary:_Der_Judenstaat_and_Altneuland

This reminds me of extremists like Kahaneists and extremist settlements like Yitzhar.

 

It is the other way around friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Arabs want the <DEMISE> of Israel... but according to you and many other here this is not <ETHNIC CLEANSING>... Ethnic cleansing is just if Jews dare to defend themselves against the attackers (Arabs) that want every single Jew in Israel killed, stabbed, blown up etc...

 

Nope. They consider the announcement stating they would be amended as a good thing. It has yet to be amended as you well know and, senior PA leaders state it will not be amended.

 

ethnic cleansing and genocide are forms of collective punishment, which is illegal under international law.

 

You are calling to expel all West Bank Arabs 2.7 million, calling for specific group to be expelled(which would also led to a lot of deaths) is ethnic cleansing. No one here says this wave of lone wolf stabbing attacks is moral or just, or legal,(any attack against civilians by either side which includes attacks against settlers beside being immoral is against international law). The PA is not behind these attacks with its security services doing their best to suppress violent attacks(most of the recent lone wolf attacks have taken place in areas of Israeli security jurisdiction) although Abbas and senior PA officials have engaged in inflammatory rhetoric accusing in incidents where Arabs have stabbed Israelis of summary execution with most noticeable case of teenage Ahmed Manasra(he wasn't killed by Israelis and is being treated after he stabbed two Israelis);(true leadership on both sides is really needed).
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...r_rising_violence_benjamin_netanyahu_and.html

Another important thing is to keep in mind is that during this round of violence by lone wolf attacks there is also violence against Arabs that aren't these lone wolf attackers causing them to die(41 Arabs, 20 of them identified by Israeli authorities as those that stabbed Israelis and nine Israelis) or be injured. An example of that is Fadi Alloun a 19 year old resident of the Arab neighborhood of Issawiya who was shot by police suspected of stabbing a 15 year old Israeli near Damascus gate after mob nearby urged police to shoot him despite Alloun not posing a threat(Alloun didn't have a knife and turned out to not be one of the lone wolf attackers) which police did causing him to die. In Netanya four Bedouins were stabbed by a Jewish extremist(who was arrested) also in Netanya "Jews(some Jewish Israelis)tried to lynch three Arabs at Kikar Haatzmaut in Netanya, while shouting "death to the Arabs". Two managed to escape, but the third was injured. Police rescued him and saved his life. No suspects have been arrested yet. It apparently started when dozens of residents spotted three Arabs there. According to bystanders, one of the Arabs shouted 'Allahu Akbar' and the crowd began to gather around them. Two Arabs managed to flee while the third was assaulted with sticks and chairs. He collapsed to the ground but they continued to attack him while he was pleading for his life. Shouts of 'death to Arabs' and "Netanya mows down Arabs', were thrown at him
During the confusion a woman was almost attacked as well. Only after she shouted back, "I'm Jewish, I'm Jewish," did they leave her alone
Police arrived on the scene and managed to rescue the Arab. Magen David Adom treated him and took him to Laniado Hospital in the city. His condition was defined as light with bruises all over his body. He was detained at the police station.
The attempted lynch was recorded by citizens who distributed videos on social networks. Police said that an investigation is underway but no suspects have been arrested yet.
Another 30-year-old Arab woman was lightly injured while driving her car in the center of Netanya and treated on the scene by Magen David Adom paramedics on Friday
According to the victim, the attackers were Jewish and the motive was nationalistic."
The most recent case of excessive force used was when an Eritrean migrant in Beersheba three days ago was shot by security guards(after being mistaken as a terrorist this was just after an Arab was killed after he stabbed a soldier and stole his gun; then opened fire causing nine people to be injured). After he was shot a lynch mob beat him to death(to be fair police and some bystanders tried to stop the lynch mob). An Israeli man also stabbed a fellow Jew mistaking him for an Arab.
http://972mag.com/new-video-shows-accused-stabber-posed-no-threat-when-shot/112593/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4708905,00.html
http://www.sfgate.com/news/world/ar...fter-Israeli-guard-shoots-him-mob-6577078.php

In discussions between Israeli defense officials on recent violence they noted
""First of all, the background," he said. "Without digging into the conflict's deep roots, this year's High Holy Days created a special situation. I'll give you an example that wasn't in the headlines: Hebron's Cave of the Patriarchs has an exact division of prayer times for Jews and Muslims, from 10am to 10pm. On Yom Kippur Eve, we wanted to reschedule the prayer because of the fast. Eid al-Adha fell on the same day this year, and Muslims had demands of their own. Only coordination between the two sides prevented a crisis.
"Add to that the friction between Jews and Arabs on the ground," the source continued. "The fact that the case of the Duma attack (an arson attack in which several members of the Dawabsheh family, including 18-month-old Ali, were killed) is still unsolved is a big problem. Solving cases calms anger, abates rage. Notice how the arrests after the murder near Itamar has calmed parts of Israeli society and deepened the rage and suspicion among Palestinians.
"Add to that the reaction of Jewish settlers. Jewish violence toward Arabs is reaching levels we don't recall seeing in the past. Israelis have ripped out hundreds of olive trees belonging to Arabs, ruined houses, smashed cars. The violence motivates counter-violence. There are those who want us to open fire at every Palestinian teenager who throws a stone. We will, of course, put that order into effect against Israeli stone-throwers as well. With us, everyone is equal before the law. Based on the number of Jews throwing stones at Arabs this week, the IDF should have killed 200 Jews."
He was being sarcastic, of course. The IDF doesn't kill Jews.
"Add Fatah's behavior to that. In regular times, there are two or three protests in West Bank friction zones. Most of them have about 20 participants. The current wave has about 40 protests a day, a large portion of which become violent. They're attended by 200-400 people. Fatah is behind these.
"We're attentively following the changes inside the Fatah. So far, other than certain incidents where gunfire was involved &#8211; incidents which were taken care of quickly by the Palestinian Authority's bodies &#8211; Fatah has avoided moving into military activity. The protesters are told to arrive unarmed.
"Add to that the internal shocks in the Palestinian Authority. The enthusiasm that Abbas's speech ignited in the UN General Assembly quickly faded and added frustration to despair. When Abbas asks &#8211; merely asks &#8211; if he may not have make a mistake in his strategic line, Fatah people say, maybe he did make a mistake, maybe violence does help promote Palestinian interests.
"The security coordination with the PA is strained and being refashioned. There's still not an explosion, but there are cracks. This week, when there was a mass demonstration in the Ayosh junction between Ramallah and Beit El, we asked their security forces to stop the violent protests. They didn't comply. We can't disperse a protest against settler violence, they said. We waited for them to act for 14 hours. We had to take care of it with our own undercover troops."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4709310,00.html

It's also important to note that out of 49 stabbing incidents the most (19) have been in East Jerusalem, and second largest (15) in Hebron and surrounding settlements like Kiryat Arba. Again this is not surprisingly that these two areas would have such a disproportionate area of attacks with East Jerusalem an island of extreme poverty and neglect for decades and Kiryat Arba probably the most extreme settlement with its chief rabbi Dov Lior for their yeshiva in a rabbinical ruling called Baruch Goldstein holier than victims of holocaust and one of the settlements most known for attacking Arabs.
http://972mag.com/jerusalem-in-context/112963/
http://www.acri.org.il/en/wp-conten...olicy-in-East-Jerusalem_ACRI_May-2012_ENG.pdf
http://www.acri.org.il/en/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/EJ-Facts-and-Figures-2015.pdf
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/32678
http://imeu.org/article/state-sanctioned-incitement-israels-extremist-rabbis

You still ignored this question.
"if someone destroyed your house(leaving you homeless) if someone destroyed your livelihood(settlers often destroy olive grooves which are for many Arabs in West Bank their livelihood), note that settlers also threaten Arab lives with 24 Arabs in West Bank killed and 308 injured by settlers between 2004-2011 and 93(roughly for 2009-2013 each year) attacks causing Arabs in West Bank to be injured, how would you react? how would you expect an average person to react to that?"
If you do bother to answer this question, seriously think about this; if your house was demolished, your livelihood(like settlers do by destroying olive trees) taken away;(both sides do constantly face risk of death or injury from the other side); could you honestly tell me that at least thought of revenge against people who did this wouldn't occur?

 

I have been to both Israel and the Palestinian Territories several times.

The Palestinian's could get JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING THEY WANT.

All they have to do is call up the U.S. State Dept. and say..."We want peace with Israel. We agree Israel has a right to exist. We will use our security forces to help prevent as best we can any attacks by extremists groups upon Israel. We intend to follow the U.S. Road Map to Peace."

That's all the Palestinian's need to do and the U.S. would FORCE the Israeli's to make peace and give some of the disputed territories back to the Palestinian's.

But this won't happen.

You know WHY????

Because the Leaders of Hamas and Fatah are GETTING RICH STEALING PALESTINIAN AID MONEY!!!

They have absolutely no interest in peace as long as the money keeps flowing in and the Israeli's get $20 Billion a year in U.S. aid.

You think the Israeli's want peace?

NEITHER SIDE WANT'S PEACE!!!

Shut off the money flow....and within 6 months there will be peace!

AboveAlpha

 

I agree. Until both sides are ready to negotiate an agreement(in PA's case also stops being an extremely corrupt(embezzling aide money to fund it) autocracy) United States should disengage from the conflict as Thomas Friedman suggested in a 2009 article which would mean stop funding both sides.
http://www.politicalforum.com/middl...s-suggested-israeli-palestinian-conflict.html

 

We along with everyone else who is donating money just perpetuate this conflict.

AboveAlpha

 

Three points'

1. Israel never said the charter had been changed but that the PA promised it would be changed. As we know, it has not been changed.

2. From your articles, they are peace talks which mean that Palestine is still at war otherwise they wouldn't be having peace talks as they had a) either had already had them and are at peace or; b) the official position of the charter had been changed and Palestine is at peace in which case they certainly would be wasting time talking about something that already occured.

3. The Palestinian leadership has already stated that they view the charter as the most importan thing since sliced falafel and that it will never be changed from the most offensive document it was.


""It will remain as is. It won't be subject to discussion," Azzam al-Ahmad, a senior Fatah leader, said.

The charter calls for armed struggle "until the Zionist entity is wiped out and Palestine is liberated"."

Abbas still preaches that it is quite relevant, and the Likud Charter does not call for the violent destruction of Palestine.

May 28 2013 - Abbas;

"(Ahmad) Shuqeiri was asked to figure out what the Palestinians wanted, and he returned with the convention for the PLO," Abbas said at a meeting to mark the 49th anniversary of the PLO's founding.

"We should remind ourselves that this is the most important and significant event in the history of the Palestinian people," the president added.

"Before the PLO we had no political presence but after its creation we did."

 

It's all about....Money, money, money, Mooooeny!!

AboveAlpha

 

"Israel never said the charter had been changed but that the PA promised it would be changed. As we know, it has not been changed."
Completely false statement. Israeli government views it as changed. This has been said by Bibi, Ariel Sharon, Yitzhak Moredechai, and Natan Sharansky as shown below.

"Israel was pleased to note that at a meeting in Gaza on 14 December 1998, the PNC adopted a resolution amending the PLO charter, as required by its outstanding obligations from: the exchange of letters between Chairman Arafat and Prime Minister Rabin dated September 1993, the exchange of letters attached to the Gaza-Jericho Agreement of May 1994, the Interim Agreement of September 1995 and the Note for the Record attached to the Hebron Protocol of January 1997. "
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfa-archi...memorandum- status of implementation feb.aspx

"Prime Minister Netanyahu expressed his satisfaction at the result of the PNC vote today, achieved as a result of the firm stance taken by the Government of Israel on the issue of the vote to revoke those clauses in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of the State of Israel."
The Defense Minister said that the clear support of those PNC members present and the representatives of the other senior Palestinian institutions in the ratification of Arafat's letter to Clinton, with the cancellation of those clauses in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel represents an important and crucial step in the carrying out of basic Palestinian commitments undertaken in agreements in Israel and particularly the Wye Agreement."
http://www.israel.org/mfa/foreignpo...sraeli reactions to the pnc vote in gaza.aspx

Today has been a very important day for the state of Israel. Fifty years after the state has been established, and so many years after the acceptance of the Palestinian Covenant calling for the destruction of Israel, and five years after the Palestinians originally decided to abolish it, this has been achieved today.This was achieved because we insisted that the charter should be abrogated. I think this is a very important move because it is the first time that every Palestinian home and every Palestinian child will know of that and will have heard of that. This has not happened before.It used to be whispered. It used to be whispered in English, in foreign languages, but today, for the first time in Gaza toward the whole Palestinian people, toward the whole world, but above all,toward their own people, those clauses of the Palestinian Charter which call for the destruction of Israel have been abrogated.
http://likud.nl/1998/12/palestinian-authority-has-yet-to-honor-all-of-its-wye-commitments/

"Yesterday they took a positive step, they abrogated the Palestinian Covenant which called for the destruction of Israel, through a vote of the members of the PNC. I would remind you that almost until yesterday, and certainly until the day before that, we were told that this is an impossibility, that not enough delegates would come, and that they certainly wouldn't raise their hands, and wouldn't take a vote. They did so primarily because we were adamant that this condition of the agreements be carried out. I also appreciate and thank President Clinton for the assistance he extended to us regarding this justified demand to comply with the obligations of the Wye accord."
http://www.israel.org/mfa/mfa-archi...f pm netanyahu and fm sharon - erez- dec.aspx

It's indisputable that Israeli government including the right views PLO covenant has been amended. Keep in mind all those statements above are from official Israeli government sources with all but one source from Israeli foreign ministry website and that one source statement from government press office.

"2. From your articles, they are peace talks which mean that Palestine is still at war otherwise they wouldn't be having peace talks as they had a) either had already had them and are at peace or; b) the official position of the charter had been changed and Palestine is at peace in which case they certainly would be wasting time talking about something that already occured."
It's indisputable that there has been peace talks. Arafat wasn't a sincere partner. Abbas was; with both Olmert and Abbas agreeing they were months away from a deal with Abbas accepting most of Olmert's terms like all of settlement blocs except for Ariel(which sits on fertile land reserves). In last peace talks during 2014 Abbas accepted border outline which would have 80% of settlers stay where they are.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/magazine/13Israel-t.html?_r=0
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4515821,00.html