Israeli Mayor wants East Jerusalem youths shot for stone-throwing

Oh, I know stoning to death occurs, but that is usually village tribals burying people up to their neck and then throwing dozens of stones at an immobile target. Not soldiers with helmets, body armor and weapons. I just think it's curious that you call it lethal force but don't know if it's actually killed an Israeli soldier.

 

No one denies that goal of mandate was Jewish home. The fact is mandate never promised a Jewish state in all of Palestine it promised a Jewish state in Palestine which Israel has been fulfilling since 1948 with state proclaimed(May 14 194 eight) day before mandate ending(May 15 194 eight) giving mandate no legal relevancy since 1948.

 

Rocks have killed more people than any other weapon in history of man? Apparently you haven't heard of guns, explosives, or swords? No one is sending troops or police unarmed. For responding to riots governments have riot police which are armored, carry batons, tasers, rubber bullets, etc. Until you don't address root cause of cycle of violence no response whether lethal(why do you prefer people dying when there is also a response that carries less chance of it(rubber bullets keep in mind while they substantially decrease chances of death and should be used in non life threatening situations they still can kill)?. In case you can't tell lethal response hasn't worked with attacks still occurring. You also ignore that It's also a double standards while Arabs are often shot to death when throwing stones by Jews against Arabs or Israeli soldiers all of sudden the stone doesn't become a lethal weapon and no lethal force not even rubber bullets are used. Israeli soldiers also well armored and can use rubber bullets as less lethal response, making it rare if ever stones have killed Israeli soldiers.

 

Man has been around for a million years, weapons such as guns and swords are only a recent phenomena. Rocks are lethal.

 

You just admitted they are lethal. Like rocks, bullets are only lethal only if the person they are aimed is it hit. I think it's curious that you feel that being the recipient of lethal application of force is ok on one hand but not on the other. Perhaps if the initiators of the action didn't throw rocks to begin with they wouldn't find themselves in danger.

 

I've yet to take a position on this issue, so putting words in my mouth isn't a valid tactic.

You called it lethal force, but can't demonstrate even a single instance of an Israeli soldier being killed by a thrown rock. The only way it becomes lethal is when you have an immobile target who gets hit in the head dozens of times.

Not sure if you've seen the videos, but killing someone with a rock is not a fast or easy process. So obviously there is a discrepancy in your opinion. I mean, I guess it's lethal like hitting your head off a door frame is lethal - just do it over and over again as hard as you can for twenty minutes.

 

The person with whom you are attempting to argue is not reasonable but limits himself to repeating Israeli government propaganda. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) habitually use disproportion in the punishment of Palestinian children and civilians who demonstrate against the occupation of their homeland. It is important to recognize that Israelis themselves, such as the human rights organization, B'Tselem, criticize the IDF for using snipers to kill and maim Palestinian children and youth demonstrators who throw stones. Such use of live ammunition is disproportionate and cruel.

 

You stated " I know stoning to death occurs" so we both agree that rocks thrown can kill. You attempted to qualify this by stating that it normally occurs in villages with people buried but the point is, you know they can kill.

We both agree that thrown with enough force and aimed properly they can kill.

I am not familiar with the law that states a police officer must remain in perpetual motion while carrying out his or her duties and, the inaccurate term used for rock throwers is protesters, not protester singular but rather 'protestors' meaning there are almost always more than one, perhaps more than dozens throwing rocks so your criteria of being immobile and being potentially hit with dozens of rocks is fulfilled. It is entirely possible for one target to be pelted with dozens of rocks in the same body area hence rock throwing is lethal application of force.

Not quite, most of these were not multiple injuries and they were certainly not tied to a chair or buried to the neck.

February 24, 1989: Stf. Sgt. Benny Meisner (25)

October 6, 2000: Bachor Jean (54)

May 7, 2001: Koby Mandell (13) and Yosef Ishran (14)

June 2, 2001: Yehuda Haim Shoham (5-month old baby)

January 29, 1983: Esther Ohana (21)

Point is, we both know it can be lethal therefore, it is lethal application of force. That the throwers aim is not as good as the police and IDF weapons in no way makes the rocks less lethal nor does the protective gear worn by same make the rocks thrown less forceful or more inaccurate. I suppose that these same rioters using slings and throwing Molotov cocktails is also a peaceful action in your world.

Police in any nation will not walk into a situation where they are not better armed and protected than the perpetrators. The perps know this, know their rocks can kill and know the penalties for being caught in the act. If lesser action is taken ..say for example a single unarmed officer going into a crowd of youths throwing rocks and attempting to apprehend one of them I doubt that officer will live hence, the application of lethal force is used - by better trained, armed and protected officers. Nothing wrong with that and, this approach is used the world over however, in Israel there is more of it, so much so that traditional methods of dealing with it cannot be used as the perpetrators are not usually individuals but rather part of a large group. Heck, in many nations, legitimate protesters are shot and killed without conducting violent actions against their government like in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Nepal, China, Ukraine, Libya etc.

 

Hamas propaganda. Palestinians declared war on Israel and have yet to rescind this declarations and have, as the aim of their official policy it's violent destruction hence, the two nations are at war hence, occupation is legal as it is in all conflicts until they are concluded. When the IDF move in to arrest people for crimes committed the cooperation factor is low to the extent that more force must be applied. Cast Lead and Protective Edge resulted when Hamas terrorists refused to cooperate and had to be routed out.

As for your use of the word 'demonstrate' I suppose that since violence is believed by yourself to be legitimate demonstration you could also say that any Israeli counter action is also a legitimate demonstration.

 

Stf. Sgt. Benny Meisner wasn't killed by a thrown rock. He was killed by a large boulder pushed off a rooftop, a boulder so large that most people couldn't even pick it up. As for the rest... Bachor Jean doesn't show up on any Google results. Koby Mandell and Yosef Ishran were killed with a rock the size of a computer and stabbed multiple times. Yehuda Haim Shohamand, the only death you've provided that actually resulted from a thrown rock, is both tragic and completely unable to happen to a grown adult whose skull has actually hardened.

Throwing rocks is not a lethal application of force, nor is it acceptable for any government to use live ammunition in response to thrown rocks as a matter of policy, especially when soldiers have helmets, body armor and access to non-lethal weapons. Honestly, it is quite shocking how willing you are to justify such an extreme overreaction to non-lethal violence. Obviously IDF soldiers have a right to defend themselves, as does every human being, but that right exists to the extent that the response is at least relatively proportional. Shooting with rubber bullets, dispersing crowds with tear gas, all of that is acceptable. Using sniper rifles with actual ammunition is not, at least in the vast majority of situations.

Using a slingshot with a rock is most definitely a lethal action, as a slingshot is exponentially more powerful than any human beings throw. Molotov Cocktails can literally burn a person alive. Comparing these things with children throwing rocks is honestly pretty ridiculous dude.

Also, why is your only example of alternatives a "single unarmed officer" going into a large group of hostile people? That doesn't happen, period. And if it did happen, that officer is entirely responsible, because such an action is beyond stupid, and well outside any regulations or training provided by any police or military force on the planet.

It IS entirely possible for one person to be hit with multiple rocks, and if that is the case, and the situation calls for it, by all means the use of force is justified. If it is bad enough that it will result in death - like if you have twenty people throwing rocks at a single guy who is unable to take cover, then lethal force should be used. The thing is this cannot be a matter of policy. Escalation of force needs to happen according to a reasonably defined spectrum, not as a basic response. A sniper blowing some kids face off because he and three of his 12 year old friends threw rocks at an armored vehicle is murder, nothing more, nothing less.

The problem with the Israel and Palestine issue is that everyone has completely lost their minds about it. Seriously, you and other heres need to seriously reevalute your positions (including the guy who went on some rant about you as if I'm going to listen to what he says about you instead of what you say about you).

 

Forgive me; I meant only a word to the wise. It's rude and inaccurate of you to call my post a "rant". I started this topic and none of my posts are bombastic or unreasonable. You will not hear from me again.

 

Ban Ki-moon alarmed by increased West Bank clashes
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon expressed alarm this week that hostilities in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, appeared to be "spiraling out of control".
In a statement issued by his spokesperson, Ban condemned the recent killings of four Palestinians and urged Israeli authorities "to conduct a prompt and transparent investigation into the incidents, including whether the use of force was proportional".
http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/165004/uns-ban-condemns-killings-of-palestinians
There is no evidence that Israelis see any virtue in being proportional.

 

Killed by a rock. Somebody picked it up and threw it, dropped it, launched it whatever. He was killed by a rock.

October 6, 2000: Bachor Jean (54)

"Killed during the second Intifada by rocks thrown at his vehicle while he was traveling from Haifa to Rishon Lezion. The rocks shattered the windshield and struck his chest. His brother, who was driving the car, sped to the hospital but was too late. The perpetrators were found to be from the nearby Arab village Jisar a-Zarka.Koby "

Strange, only one boulder was found yet the cause of death was from being beaten with 'rocks' not a boulder or stabbed to death.

Yet you have admitted that if hit, a person can die from a rock being thrown. I agree, it may take more than one, dozens, possibly hundreds but really only one is the rock that actually kills and could be the first one thrown.

You said that when a person is hit a dozen times it can be. In the cases I showed you some were only hit once. They can severely injure and possibly kill. Like a 22 round, it can injure and possibly kill therefore, it is not lethal according to the same argument.

Palestinians are more than free to find themselves helmets and garbage can lids to use. Of course, it restricts their ability to throw rocks I suppose and interferes with their aim but, they shouldn't be throwing rocks in the first place no? in any case, 22 rounds aimed at the lower portions of the bodies of those throwing fuel bombs or rocks are not considered to be lethal either.

The force will be trained to use the Ruger .22-caliber rifle, which is generally not lethal, if stone-throwers pose a risk to passengers traveling in cars.

Golly, it's a 22 aimed at the lower body and is considered non lethal, not an 88 mm Anti Aircraft gun.

The two more often than not go hand in hand with rock throwing.

Palestinians hurl stones, Molotov cocktails at police in east Jerusalem

Glad you agree it would be stupid as does the IDF. Since we know that the perps are violent how would you stop them? Telling them to disperse has no effect, it's impossible to arrest them at the time and when they wear disguises can't do it after either so what is your suggestion? Rubber bullets are considered overreacting and lethal in many cases.

So, what the IDF, in your opinion need to do is to have one officer take off his armor, move in front of the rioters and allow himself to be hit a couple of times with a rock and then the rest of them can shoot the perps with their non lethal when aimed at the lower body 22 rounds?

I would agree, that is not the scenario at play though.

The force will be trained to use the Ruger .22-caliber rifle, which is generally not lethal, if stone-throwers pose a risk to passengers traveling in cars.

I haven't. They are at war and Israel is carrying out a legal occupation. When attacked they are permitted to defend themselves as every other nation who has been attacked by their enemy has done throughout history.

 

When you stated "The person with whom you are attempting to argue is not reasonable but limits himself to repeating Israeli government propaganda" you ceased being credible and rather than dealing with the argument you attacked the person. I would challenge you to show where all of my statements are found on Israeli government sites but thankfully you have ceased to be active here as you promised.

 

To put it mildly what you wrote above is so disingenuous I feel like puking!

Well there was never an INDEPENDENT Palestine... That piece of Land was supposedly a southern section of Syria, which was under Ottoman Empire and called <Ottoman> for four hundred years, then came the British Mandate for Palestine for thirty years... so I deduct there was no <Independent Palestine> and the Jewish Home was to be in the Mandated Area... I still wonder if you would EVER digest the meaning of all that?

 

Israeli Mayor wants Jewish citizens to do the shooting not only the IDF
Nir Barkat, the Israeli Mayor of Jerusalem, including annexed East Jerusalem, wants all Jews to be armed now and to follow his example. He carries an assault rifle as he patrols the chaos in the streets. Jews, he claims, will then feel safe.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/guns-and-metal-detectors-jerusalems-mayor-has-plan-to-calm-his-city/
This guy has presided over a brutal occupation which has turned East Jerusalem into a Dodge City. So far he has got all he asked for from Netanyahu. With every Jew armed and ready to shoot, there will most certainly be rivers of Palestinian blood in the streets. The mayor will be relying of the training in killing which Israelis acquire through their conscripted military training.

Meanwhile, as the killing continues, Jordan has condemned the deaths of Palestinians at the hands of Israeli security forces and has urged international intervention. The Palestinian Prime Minister, Rami Hamdallah, also demanded international intervention on Friday, "calling on the United Nations to provide protection for the Palestinians."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/jordan-slams-palestinian-deaths-urges-international-intervention/

 

Golly, seems like it's time for the Palestinians to rescind their declaration of war, take the destruction of Israel from their official policy and make peace at any cost. Maybe even surrender as their war doesn't seem to be doing much for them, just like Nazi Germany and Japan did when they were whipped, did them a lot of good.

 

"To put it mildly what you wrote above is so disingenuous I feel like puking!"
How am I being disingenuous I'm just stating historic facts which again is
"No one denies that goal of mandate was Jewish home. The fact is mandate never promised a Jewish state in all of Palestine it promised a Jewish state in Palestine which Israel has been fulfilling since 1948 with state proclaimed(May 14 194 eight) day before mandate ending(May 15 194 eight) giving mandate no legal relevancy since 1948."

"Well there was never an INDEPENDENT Palestine... That piece of Land was supposedly a southern section of Syria, which was under Ottoman Empire and called <Ottoman> for four hundred years, then came the British Mandate for Palestine for thirty years... so I deduct there was no <Independent Palestine> and the Jewish Home was to be in the Mandated Area... I still wonder if you would EVER digest the meaning of all that?"
I never said there has been an independent Palestine before.There is a Jewish home in what was the mandate area state of Israel so again the fact of the matter is mandate has no legal relevancy since 1948. Why do you want destroy Israel the world's only Jewish home by turning it into a binational/apartheid(especially since rightfully most Israelis don't want to annex entire West Bank giving all Arabs there citizenship)?

 

As pointed out before according to Israeli government including those Bibi, Ariel Sharon, Natan Sharansky, and Yitzhak Moredechai views the charter as changed with
PLO charter even on Israeli foreign ministry website noting
" Amendments
In a letter to Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, Yasser Arafat stated that those articles which denied Israel's right to exist or are inconsistent with the PLO's new commitments to Israel following their mutual reognition, were no longer valid (see Oslo peace process).
The PNC met in a special session on 26 April 1996 to consider the issue of amending the Charter and adopted the following decision:
A. The Palestinian National Charter is hereby amended by canceling the articles that are contrary to the letters exchanged the P.L.O. and the Government of Israel 9-10 September 1993.
B. Assigns its legal committee with the task of redrafting the Palestinian National Charter in order to present it to the first session of the Palestinian Central Council.
The decision was adopted by a vote of: 504 in favor, 54 against, and 14 abstentions.
On January 1998, Yasser Arafat sent a letter to US President, Bill Clinton, outlining the implications of this decision in terms of the specific articles of the Charter that were nullified or amended as a result of that decision. In December 1998, both the PLO Executive Committee and the PLO Central Council reaffirmed this decision"
The 1998 letter to Bill Clinton specifies which articles are not in effect
noting
"
The Palestine National Council's resolution, in accordance with Article 33 of the Covenant, is a comprehensive amendment of the Covenant. All of the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the P.L.O. commitment to recognize and live in peace side by side with Israel are no longer in effect. As a result, Articles 6-10,15, 19-23, and 30 have been nullified, and the parts in Articles 1-5, 11-14, 16-l8, 25-27 and 29 that are in consistent with the above mentioned commitments have also been nullified. "
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/sourcefiles/1998-Letter-Arafat-to-Clinton.pdf

Again Abbas is willing to live by Israel peacefully in a Palestinian state agreeing to most of Olmert's terms in 2008 but ran out of time with Bibi since coming back to office in 2009 has refused to go back to point of 2008 talks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/magazine/13Israel-t.html?_r=0

 

Charter has never been changed. IN fact, Palestinian officials as of 2009 stated it would not be changed.

""It will remain as is. It won't be subject to discussion," Azzam al-Ahmad, a senior Fatah leader, said.

The charter calls for armed struggle "until the Zionist entity is wiped out and Palestine is liberated"."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2009/08/20098435612729372.html

 

The above mentioned supposedly change was NEVER implemented, it was to impress the world that the PLO has changed... (but since the tiger cannot change his spots) the original charter is still alive and through its original rulings... is exactly what happens now.

MOD EDIT - Rule 3

 

Probably your Mayor has these attributes besides being a Communist Jerk!!!

 

Palestinians in Gaza ready to defend Al-Aqsa
Nine Palestinians were shot dead by Israeli soldiers this weekend in Gaza, including two teenagers today as they join with their countrymen in Occupied East Jerusalem in defense of Al-Aqsa. &#8220;Gaza will fulfill its role in the Jerusalem intifada and it is more than ready for confrontation,&#8221; Hamas leader, Ismail Haniyeh, said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/2-gaza-teens-said-killed-by-idf-in-second-day-of-border-clashes/
The Al-Aqsa mosque is the third holiest site in Islam and the Israelis attempting to control access as if it was in Israel and Jewish property is a provocation too far. It is difficult to see how anything short of an all-out intifada can be avoided now.

 

There isn't a child or person in Palestine who hasn't lost a family member or friend to Zionist ambitions.. They have all experienced the loss of homes, farms, businesses, mosques, schools, water and olive trees.

- - - Updated - - -

Ariel Sharon managed to spark the second intifada by taking a stroll around al Aksa with a thousand Israelis soldiers.

 

Time to rescind their declaration of war, recognize Israel and take it's violent destruction from their official position and make peace, even if they have to surrender unconditionally. Unless things really are not that bad ....