North Korea Fired Missile Over Japan

I honestly disagree that a war that begins with an NK attack on Japan is necessarily a bad thing for China. Think about it. If the U. S. did nothing but continue to bluster and blow around about all the crap that's supposedly "on the table", then we are essentially run out of that entire area with our tail between our legs! The U. S. would lose Japan, South Korea, and any real power over Southeast Asia and the South China Sea forever.

China would rule Japan and South Korea through its North Korean puppet, and project undisputed power from the Himalayas to Siberia. Meanwhile, none of this would have gone unnoticed by Russia, which would move even more pervasively into the Middle East while cozying up even closer to Western Europe -- particularly Germany!

Bottom line: unless we smash North Korea HARD, very visibly, and we do it SOON, I see nothing but the greatest foreign policy disasters imaginable following on for the United States. The time for action is NOW, and blowing around about whatever kind of crap that's "on the table" while staging a few showpiece military maneuvers is hardly the same as ACTION!

. The kind of 'table' that the U. S. Government is BEST at preparing.... .

 

Sure ... my proposal is that the next missile started by mad midget should be shot down by the US as warning, as soon as it leaves NK territory. This has 2 reasons...

1. The US can show their abilities to shot down such stuff too, otherwise we the same issue with warnings after warnings in matter of question "are the US really able to shot down such a missile or are they only buffing all about here?".
Also is there no military secret in danger, because which one when the US still claimed all the time to be able to do so, eh?

2. Because in international area and outside NK territory, it is no violence against cease fire treaty or any attack by any law ... but in reverse, it could be told that the US defended only... particularly if mad midget shots again one over Japan.

3. If mad midget take this as war reasons and starts then from his side hostilities ... jackpot!

 

yes economy is important with china, but you forgot china often use nationalism on these issue. if war occur at NK, china will blame the opposition country, and most Chinese will united after it. China is not that fragile that some slowdown economy will cause it to implode. PS don't think china will get involve anyway, since they are also mad at NK.

what do you mean

 

We've given him WAY too many free passes. It's why he thinks he can get away with anything. If he does ANYTHING wrong again, we need to hit him hard.

 

I totally agree. The next missile that violates Japanese air space should be shot down. The problem is if the US systems cannot do this, or are inconsistent in doing this. What are the other options? Surgical strikes on air fields have not worked in the past. The recent attack on Syria by 50 or more cruise missiles was fairly ineffective except as a political statement. The option of massive conventional attack would also result in hundreds of thousands of South Korean and US military lives. A nuclear option would plunge the world into a recession that we can't imagine apart from the annihilation of US ally South Korea and significant damage to Japan. Military options should be on the table but these need to be measured. US pressure on regional players is now moving up a gear. China can do a lot more. It must be finessed so that they see it is clearly in their interests to do so.

This is basically Steve Bannon's analysis and I'm no great fan of him.

 

I think Abe needs to be the guy to initiate a military response. Unless Kim shifts his trajectories to US territories, Japan and S Korea need to demonstrate their military commitment to protecting their own security.

 

Agreed

 

First China is very vulnerable to a severe economic disaster which is why they are mad at NK. Initially the xenophobia would work but short term Xi would see opposition to him start to accelerate. The point in soft power is that China's strategic approach, apart from the South China Sea, Xinjiang and Tibet, is to avoid any view that they are an expanding Empire. But as with all empires they need resources from outside their country and do this with soft power - massive investment overseas. They champion the concept of international law and the status quo as this is central to their strategy. Nations that they are currently courting in order to secure supply of resources would immediately see the hypocrisy of China entered a jingoistic war with Japan. And no matter what historical grievances, south East Asian countries would see China as an aggressor and Chinese influence would be weakened in their back yard. This is why China will only back NK if a pre emptiness be disproportionate attack took place from the US. This is also very likely as US interests would not be served by a massive war with two nuclear powers.

 

Oh, hush up already! Who, do you think, will be having tens of thousands of refugees storming their border? Definitely not USA. Who will have all trade relations in the Far East ruined and will be locked with only Europe left for years? Who will possibly get dragged into that mess because it is RIGHT NEXT TO OUR BLOODY BORDER?

Your "time to act now" is nothing but a problem alternative to a problem. Best you can do is to stay out and let us deal with our neighbours without your military being involved. And as one user pointed above - to let South Corea and Japan to deal with their threats themselves. At least one of them has army not than much smaller than that of North Corea and other has maximum it can squeese out of forced disarmament USA implied on them after WWII.


And by the way, why didn't your anti-missile defences shot down the last missle? Any explanation given by your government?

 

Exactly how? Japan is a weak military power and any conventional war in SK (which would necessarily involve US troops - about 200,000 of them) could not avoid being brought into the war. If shooting down misfiled works then that's straightforward. Otherwise what exactly is this proposal for massive intervention?

Saying something big needs to be done is easy. But what exactly?

 

I guess our 'anti-missile defences' were just sitting there "on the table", doing NOTHING....

The axiom that "nature deplores a vacuum" also applies to foreign policy.... And, I never said that a conflict between North Korea and Japan would be an ecstatic experience for China or anyone else -- but I can see how it would serve China's long-term interests perfectly!

 

I've already said that the warnings would need to be followed through. I'm pretty sure you and I agree that the previous warnings have not been followed up on and that this is not the way to proceed. No more red lines, like the one from Trump that Kim has apparently just crossed, although that is also questionable since he threatened Japan in a big way, but did not threaten us directly. Is that not the game he plays? Act tough and defiant, but don't take things so far that there are real consequences, and continue with military development and demonstrations for bragging rights and scoring points with the frightened population he rules.

How anxious are you to go to war with North Korea and get untold numbers of people killed? How easy is that call from your armchair?

 

Funny you lefties were all over Russia when Crimea voted unanimously to leave Ukraine. You're still beating that cold war drum to this day.

North Korea has directly threatened the United States with a nuclear holocaust.

Must be confusing for you to be SO partisan that you want war, but you don't.

 

Crimea "voted" after Russian troops entered and seized control of it. *L* Not that this is relevant to this discussion in the least.

And North Korea is always blustering about attacking us. Can't take it any more seriously than Trump's blustering.

 

There you go. Drumming up any excuse you can to get butthurt about Russia. You're butthurt that a town in Ukraine (non-ally, non-NATO) decided to leave. I bet you never even heard of Crimea before that.

Yet there's a nation threatening a nuclear holocaust you're just like "oh it's fine. they won't do anything" (meanwhile, they launch a missile over an ACTUAL ally).

I'm glad you don't realize how delusional you are. One day you will and it will make for an interesting apology

 

When has the US fired a missile over Pyongyang?

 

Hey Durandel, cut it out. It wasn't Russia that invaded Crimea, it was Ukraine. ..something the MSM will never tell you:

Ukraine Annexed Crimea in the 1990s

Something else “our” government and its media whores did not tell us is that under the Crimean Constitution of 1992, Crimea existed as a legal, democratic, secular state. Crimea’s relationship with Ukraine was based on bilateral agreements. In 1995 Ukrainian special ops forces and Ukrainian Army troops invaded Crimea and annexed the territory.

Here is the report from Arina Tsukanova:

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/03/28/so-who-annexed-crimea-peninsular-then.html

The Autonomous Republic of Crimea was established by the 1991 All-Union Referendum in which 94% of Crimeans voted in favor of re-establishing their status as an autonomous republic. Crimeans repeated the vote in 2014 by an even higher percentage, and this time prevented another Ukrainian invasion by reuniting with Russia.

Why didn’t you know this? Why instead do you hear nothing but lies about a “Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea”?

​

 

Fake news.

 

I'm not going to accept anything coming from the MSM about N. Korea because our government lies. Russia worked out a proposal on how Kim could get rid of his nuclear weapons without feeling insecure. China agreed with the proposal, and Kim had no objections when he saw it.

According to the terms, all provocations were to stop, and there was to be a gradual disarmament on both sides. Russia would guarantee N. Korea's security, that way Kim would feel secure. Washington's reaction to stopping the provocations, was to send in more destroyers, and install more missile defenses in S. Korea.

Last week Germany agreed with the proposal. Washington's reaction to that was to immediately hold drills with S. Korea. Unless I'm mistaken, this is probably why Kim sent a missile over Japan.

Now Washington is not stupid, so why do they keep provoking Kim, instead of working within the plan laid out by Russia? What is their intent? I recall that Congress passed a law when Trump was in Saudi Arabia, that any nation doing business with N. Korea was to be sanctioned ...and the US had the right to inspect ports to see if nations were complying.

Russia freaked of course since inspecting ports meant war. They also believed that it was to hurt their grain export since they use N. Korean workers. So my question is, are these provocations towards N. Korea that Kim is foolishly responding to, meant to hurt Russia and China through more sanctions? Or is it to sell more arms to S. Korea and Japan?

I'm sure Trump didn't sign the bill, and the sanctions allow Russia and China to hire the same amount of N. Korean workers as before.

 

Army soldier, instead of indulging a silly culture war as above, why don't you help us understand how the real war might work. You are apparently an army soldier, so you will have professional knowledge in this respect. Exactly what action should the USA, South Korea, Japan and the 200,000 US troops in Korea take?

Because most people would like there to be some action. The problem is that when we get into the detail of exactly what action, the likely consequences are even worse than the current intolerable situation.

So I would like to hear from those with professional knowledge - exactly what action should be taken. What would the military objectives be and how would they be won?

That would be a very interesting discussion. Unlike the endless fighting of culture wars.

 

AHEM!

If something referred to by Jeannete does not means it's fake. Check things before you label them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Republic_of_Crimea#History_of_Autonomous_Republic_of_Crimea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histo...public_within_Ukraine_.281991.E2.80.932014.29


She fuсked up dates, but fact is Crimea did established itself as independent republic, and later was absorbed in Ukraine. There have been conflicts, there have been attempts to secede from Ukraine. Actions of ukrainian government in 1995, for example, striped Crimean Tatars from right for representation of themselves as ethnic minority in regional government. Right, that government of Ukraine only returned them AFTER the crimean referendum of 2014. And before you try slapping label again - prooflinks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014 - March 16, 2014
http://zakon2.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/1140-18 - March 20, 2014 - Decree of Upper Rada of Ukraine about "On the Statement of the Upper Rada of Ukraine on the Guarantee of the Rights of the Crimean Tatar People in the Ukrainian State".

Try telling me it's not a dirty political trick of government that decided to abuse strife for recognition of people whose right for recognition they previously taken away.

 

She's telling a very biased version of the story, as always.

It was an earlier attempt by Russians and separatists to get Crimea placed under Russian control. If anything, it helps provide context for more recent actions. Come 2014, Russia finally worked up the gumption to go in with force and steal Crimea outright instead of farting around with puppet politicians and what-not.

 

Does not excuses discarding it in instant. So far nearly everybody on this forum tells bias version of stories - hence it's vital to check every single thing you want to express opinion on by yourself. Better to correct mistakes of others rather than reflect them with mirrored vector.

And seriously, you assume that it all happened PURELY due to government in Kremlin? Do I need to give you a broad analysis of cultural state of Crimea in past quarter of century to make you doubt for a second the version that government in Kiev thies to push through for last three years? While I am having a fuсking train in two days and haven't even packed my luggage yet? You seriously can't doubt things you been supporting WITHOUT overwhelming evidences of them being MAYBE not exactly correct?

 

No matter how much the Kremlin was involved, it was involved, and underhandedly so, and long has been. It helped, no doubt, that the USSR deported many people who would have been more opposed to the Crimean Anschluss..

 

It's neighbouring country and on top of that we had a naval base vital for Black sea fleet in that region, sure Kremlin WAS involved! Don't tell me USA is not at all involved in politics of Mexico and Canada, considering one has constant flow of migrants to you and other is your only land passage to Alaska. Or, for example, that USA is not involved in politics of Venesuela, Kuba, or Puerto Rico!

Turkey involved in Syria, Iran and Greece, Greece involved in politics of Albania and Macedonia, Spain in Portugal and Marocco, and so on. Neighbouring countries are involved in each others politics. Sometimes directly, when like in Tuva, Crimea, New Mexico and Kosovo there are mixed ethnic populations involved, some of which might be disgruntled by others.