What would we be (or do) without pain and suffering?

All of our advancements are the result of humans trying to prevent past suffering of themselves or others.

Without suffering, we would be living naked in the woods eating berries. Forever.

Do you find that vision of 'humanity' preferable to its current state?

 

What do you not understand about this:

If there hadn't been babies suffering ( or any other afflictions and diseases) for hundreds of years we wouldn't have needed medical advancements....

?????


I doubt that lack of great suffering would've stifled human's curiosity, creativeness, inventiveness, development, growth, artistry....

No, you're just trying to say that "innocent babies suffering, the awful atrocities humans committed against each other, are good things because god told me so"


Why did humans have to suffer for thousands of years from heat before inventing air conditioners? Don't ya think that would be one of the first things they invented ?


and AGAIN, if there were no people suffering from disease and afflictions then there would be NO NEED FOR MEDICAL ADVANCEMENTS.

 

But if we never suffered we wouldn't have needed to develop various paths of science or need science since your deity and his angels would be there to do everything for us and nothing bad would ever happen, the issue might be human reproduction being too promiscuous since delivering babies wouldn't hurt either, but god could use his magic juju to limit fertility and when needed magically plant humans on other planets.

I don't see the issue we wouldn't advance in lots of areas but who would care I would be fit, healthy, getting my dick wet and making children without pain or worries sounds nice to me.

 

Rediculous and baseless accusations of monstrosity aside...

Necessity is the mother of invention. Adversity is the mother of necessity.

People dont make fires when they are already warm. We dont plant crops when we have abundant food, and we dont explore the mysteries and wonders of the universe without first building a scientific/technological/industrial base originally intended to make our lives easier in the face of adversity and suffering.

How would we invent air conditioners without first mastering fire to keep us warm, inventing tools to make our work less strenuous?

 

Do you consider yourself to be an adventurous person?

 

So now you are admitting that god is an emotional being so he acts out his emotions instead of being entirely calm, logical and rational?

Care to explain what exactly god is fearful of happening? What makes god so emotionally insecure and needy that he requires "love" from his own "creations"?

 

You studied art and yet you failed to recognize that number 2 was by a highly acclaimed artist?

Actually number 1 was done by 3 different elephants but what I considered interesting was that the 2nd and 3rd recognized the image done by the first and replicated it without obscuring the prior images. That means that the elephants themselves can appreciate the images of their fellow elephants.

This confirms that art is just another form of communication and that the elephants were communicating via that artwork. It would be fascinating to determine if the image sizes related to their own status within their herd. If that is the case then no, they are not just "printers" but using art as a means to communicate.

 

Why do children have to be sacrificed in the attempt to advance humans? You would think that an all powerful being could figure out a way of advancing humans without having to resort to the torture of thousands (millions?) of innocent children who don't have the slightest idea what is happening to them, who could care less if humanity advances and could care less about your god.

 

Emotions only effect actions when we let them, when we lose control of ourselves. Theres no reason to presume that God loses control of his actions when experiencing emotions. Emotional Resilience is the ability to act reasonably, rationally despite the emotional urge to lash out. If anyone has perfect emotional resilience, surely it would be God.

Fear is the mortal human base negative emotion, most typically as a result of uncertain future. I don't expect that God experiences fear, but rather pain as His base negative emotion.

'Love' in the Bible is 'patient, kind, not jealous, not boastful, not easily angered...' God is merely telling us to treat Him the same way we're supposed to be treating eachother. Thats not 'insecurity,' its respect.

 

Actually, many discoveries were made from accidents and observations. Astronomers look into space with telescopes, not to overcome any adversity, but because they have questions. The same is true with archeology and paleontology. The laser was invented when some scientists wondered if it was possible create a beam of coherent light. They didn't have a purpose it mind, they just wanted to know if if could be done.

I would argue that adversity has kept humans from advancing as far as we could have because we have to spend so much time and resources on survival, that we don't have time and resources on true exploration, research and philosophy. In the modern, developed world, many of our discoveries and inventions are not out of need, but out of want. Was there a need (and by "need" I mean a life threatening adversity) for smart phones, movies, or search engines? Was there a need to climb Mt. Everest or explore Antarctica?

 

So I guess these parts of the Bible are wrong?

For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. - Deuteronomy 4:24

For the LORD will strike Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water; and He will uproot Israel from this good land which He gave to their fathers, and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, because they have made their Asherim, provoking the LORD to anger - 1 Kings 14:15

I will set My jealousy against you, that they may deal with you in wrath. They will remove your nose and your ears; and your survivors will fall by the sword. They will take your sons and your daughters; and your survivors will be consumed by the fire. - Ezekiel 23:25

 

I 'failed to recognize' that the 'art' was creatively designed. Whether it was by a 'highly acclaimed artist' is immaterial. 'Highly acclaimed artists' have gained their acclaim by literally framing their feces. I dont hold 'acclaim' in the art community in-and-of-itself in very high esteem.

The picture confirms nothing except the ability for elephants to be trained to copy human creations. In order for it to prove what you claim, some impartial observance, research and documentation is necessary.

 

No.

Those are Old Testament. God's original relationship with man was one of Law and obediance... and punishment. IMO God was overseeing humanity from the perspective of God- the all powerful, rightful ruler, keeping order with the iron fist.

Something happened (perhaps our abject failure to live up to His expectations). God decided to gain the perspective of His creations (yes, I believe God is capable of learning). He came to exist fully in our reality in the form of Christ and experienced life as we do. And decided to replace Law with Love. Blanket forgiveness replaced the expectation of absolute obedience. It was a monumental shift.

 

There are over a thousand verses in the bible referring to god being angry. Plenty of others where he acts out his vengence. Both of those are examples of a failure to maintain control over his emotions.

Then there is the classic phrase about being jealous and killing those that don't worship him.

Those are all examples of the failure of god to control his negative emotions.

The emotional insecurity of god is on display for those who are unbiased.

 

Perhaps you might benefit from reading a little more about the topic. Here are some useful links.

http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/mission.php

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140723-are-we-the-only-creative-species

The free form art by animals like bowerbirds, the chimp in England and the elephants at the conservation project are not copies of anything that any human has taught them.

 

And yet there is no evidence that the god of the OT is any different to the one of the NT.

He still ignores prayers, allows children to suffer and die and kills off millions of fetuses on a regular basis.

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
What do you not understand about this:

If there hadn't been babies suffering ( or any other afflictions and diseases) for hundreds of years we wouldn't have needed medical advancements....

?????


I doubt that lack of great suffering would've stifled human's curiosity, creativeness, inventiveness, development, growth, artistry....

No, you're just trying to say that "innocent babies suffering, the awful atrocities humans committed against each other, are good things because god told me so"


Why did humans have to suffer for thousands of years from heat before inventing air conditioners? Don't ya think that would be one of the first things they invented ?


and AGAIN, if there were no people suffering from disease and afflictions then there would be NO NEED FOR MEDICAL ADVANCEMENTS.

Are they ridiculous? It IS what you claim...suffering and adversity are good things because it made people invent medical advances...YOU said it..

Nope, they make them when they get cold...they shouldn't need to freeze to death first
!!!

YES, "we" do.....and have since humans first planted crops...

Tell that to Davinci....and all the people before him who explored the mysteries and wonders of the universe WITHOUT a scientific/technological/industrial base

It wouldn't be needed if WE DIDN'T HAVE ADVERSITY AND SUFFERING........

That last sentence is just nonsensical...we wouldn't NEED air conditioners if humans didn't SUFFER from the heat.

 

But I thought God was omniscient? If God is all-knowing, why would He have to change His mind?

 

I'd like you to address post 85.....seems you ignored it for some reason....

 

OT stuff, see my reply at 1:40am

 

Im on phone, no numbers. what was the timestamp of the post?

 

2:22 AM

 

God changes His mind often in The Bible. I believe this may be because He created individials with new perspectives, and every now and then one or some of those individuals had a perspective on a specific situation that was superior to God's perspective from the mortal point of view.

In short, God can learn. After all, how omniscient can one be if one is incapable of learning? Prior to humans, there was no precedent (that we know of) for an entity with Free Will and creativity and a spirit and the capacity for logic and emotion, good and evil, all bundled together. I think it was impossible for God to truly understand our perspective until He experienced life as we do.

Some see Christ as sort of a 'Rebel' from God, a new version of God that was an unintentionally result of this new perspective gained by an immortal power having a mortal experience and rewriting all the rules. It seems to me that God likely had to split himself (temporarily at first) in order to live as Jesus, and after having done so, decided to stay that way, sort of 'God going against God' (hows that for a conundrum?).

 

You're equating allowance with causation. Given Free Will as a declared priority, some allowances must likely be made. Humanity chose self determination, once in The Garden and perhaps once again with the murder of Christ (Im still mulling that theory around). Its possible that this new convenant between God and Man, where we have access to blanket forgiveness, requires a high degree of 'nonintervention' on Gods part.

 

Utter nonsense!

The same imaginary deity presented as something different doesn't make it any less of a figment of the imagination.