What would we be (or do) without pain and suffering?

Im not particularly familiar with Jewish persecutiin in WW1 other than what may have been the very beginnings of the anti-Jew sentiments that culminated in The Holocaust of WW2, possibly (according to the research I did, not my opinion) as a response to the new idea of 'Kazarian' Zionism.

But in general: just because adversity is the driving force to knowledge (and eventually, I believe, 'enlightenment') doesnt mean that we will learn 'the first go-around.' Or the second, or the third...

Im afriad the human race just isnt capable of advancing as quickly as you want it to.

 

It is so easy for you to say,. "oh , just wait, god made you suffer but someday you'll be so enlightened!
All the heinous acts perpetrated on innocent people for thousands of years will SOMEDAY "enlighten" us....."""


That is still the most assinine idea and sorry excuse for suffering that I've heard....

Your complete and total lack of compassion for other human beings in defense of this fiend you call god is deplorable.

AGAIN, just because it isn't YOU suffering you think it's fun and enlightening....and again, that's deplorable and quite sickening....I am so glad I don't believe in your god and have to spout that crap to defend him...

BTW, murdering and starving Jews in WWI was not """beginnings of the anti-Jew sentiments"""...it was murder...but I can see where you'd try to sugar coat it and defend it as so ENLIGHTENING!!!



Humans have been around for about 10,000 years.....how many children were raped orstarved to death or died of horrible birth defects in that 10,000 years? I know you don't care about their suffering but don't you think we should be "enlightened" by now...???

 

Oh , so that’s why they had the holocaust, after all you read it on the Internet so it must be true (sarcasm alert) what an insult to Jews and to how stupid you think people are

 

Yay!! So why not go out and make a success of yourself and others?? With all that knowledge and creativism we have learned, why not be a successful person in this life?? Who knows what 'modern' good things we might be able to arrive at....

 

I completely agree. Thats an excellent goal for everyone.

Perhaps Im mistaken, but I detect either sarcasm or chastizement in your comment, though Im unsure precisely of WHAT...

Are you trying to make a particular point without literally saying it (and if so, what is it?) or am I just off base?

 

You assume too much. Perhaps you would like to share a better source for Jewish persecution in WW1 so I can know what you're talking about?

 

I think 'humans' have been around quite a bit longer than that even. Animal bones found in South America with human tool marks on them date back to well before the 10,000BC crossing of the landbridge from Asia to the Americas. Of course, this breaks with the established doctrine of ancient human history and completely undermines the foundations of what we think we know of our evolutionary past, and as such, is simply not acceptible for consideration. It gets tucked away as 'forbidden archeaology,' like the Egyption pictograms found scrawled on rocks in ancient caves in the American Southwest, the unexplainable properties of the massive rock wall buried surrounding Rockwall Texas, or the 12000 year old Pyramid in Bosnia...

I dont understand how you could expect to know how long it 'should' take for Humans to irradicate all suffering. I agree that its quite frustrating to see people focussed on hurting eachother instead of taming the adversity of their environment to the betterment of all.

But thats how it is. All we can do is try to convince them to change, or be the change ourselves.

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
It is so easy for you to say,. "oh , just wait, god made you suffer but someday you'll be so enlightened!
All the heinous acts perpetrated on innocent people for thousands of years will SOMEDAY "enlighten" us....."""


That is still the most assinine idea and sorry excuse for suffering that I've heard....

Your complete and total lack of compassion for other human beings in defense of this fiend you call god is deplorable.

AGAIN, just because it isn't YOU suffering you think it's fun and enlightening....and again, that's deplorable and quite sickening....I am so glad I don't believe in your god and have to spout that crap to defend him...

BTW, murdering and starving Jews in WWI was not """beginnings of the anti-Jew sentiments"""...it was murder...but I can see where you'd try to sugar coat it and defend it as so ENLIGHTENING!!!



Humans have been around for about 10,000 years.....how many children were raped orstarved to death or died of horrible birth defects in that 10,000 years? I know you don't care about their suffering but don't you think we should be "enlightened" by now...???

Irrelevant ...

WHAT! I don't ! From my post above that you couldn't address:

"""Humans have been around for about 10,000 years.....how many children were raped or starved to death or died of horrible birth defects in that 10,000 years? I know you don't care about their suffering but don't you think we should be "enlightened" by now...???""


The POINT isn't the length of time, the POINT IS there has been NONE of your "enlightenment " that you said would come after many people including innocent babies and children suffered horribly.......

FINALLY you admit all you've got is "that's how it is".

You are correct, there is no reason, that's just how it is....that's just how ALL discussions on the non-existent kindness of your god end..."that's just how it is"....and most other discussions when believers have NO defense and no argument..."that's just how it is"

WHY? We aren't responsible for what others do.....did you try to convince Hitler not to torture and murder Jews? How did that go?

Did you try to convince your god not to inflict innocent children with horrible diseases? how did that go??

 

You can get your own water out of the air if you're thirsty. No god necessary.

 

You dont think we've made any progress in 10000 years?

 

I keep telling those dying people to do what god did....go” poof”

 

What do you mean by "progress"?


Are people still suffering horribly? YES.

Are innocent children still born with horrible deformities? YES.

Are children and women still sold into sex slavery, a life YOU can't even imagine NOR want to, by the millions? YES.

Are people tortured in the name of national security? YES.

Are people still tortured, blown apart, suffer from starvation and INCURABLE diseases? YES.

Are people still imprisoned without cause? YES.





Funny how I answer YOUR question but you have never addressed mine, except to say "Duh, that's the way it is" . That means you have no argument.

 

"...dont you think we should be enlightened by now?"

Yes.

Do you find satisfaction in that answer? Whats the point of the question? The fact remains that we are not, nor likely close to enlightenment (the total irradication of suffering).

'Progress' in the context of this conversation would be 'a reduction in suffering.'

I believe we have made great progress in reducing environmental suffering by advancing technology. We can grow food easier, build shelter easier, clothe ourselves more easily, and we have medicines and procedures to prevent or cure many ailments. We can predict natural dissasters and have systems in place to reduce or negate their effects. Our potential to reduce suffering has advanced immeasurably.

Human-caused suffering is another story. Our food goes to waste instead of feeding the hungry, land is hoarded by the wealthy and powerful while many are homeless. Technologies that would benefit all are kept hidden, classified as 'destabilizing.' We war and enslave.

The bulk of human suffering is now caused by humans instead of the environment.

We have made progress. We have much progress yet to make, especially within the minds and souls of humans.

 

Religion is a major impediment to minds making progress.

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
What do you mean by "progress"?


Are people still suffering horribly? YES.

Are innocent children still born with horrible deformities? YES.

Are children and women still sold into sex slavery, a life YOU can't even imagine NOR want to, by the millions? YES.

Are people tortured in the name of national security? YES.

Are people still tortured, blown apart, suffer from starvation and INCURABLE diseases? YES.

Are people still imprisoned without cause? YES.





Funny how I answer YOUR question but you have never addressed mine, except to say "Duh, that's the way it is" . That means you have no argument.

All that and you still haven't addressed the FACT that if we didn't HAVE the suffering and adversity we WOULD NOT NEED THE (REALLY SLOW) ADVANCEMENTS.

 

Cant disagree with that. The subjectivity inherent in spirituality makes it very easy to redirect humans seeking spiritual answers away from honest pursuit and into the clutches of those who would manipulate minds for their own power and control through the creation of doctrine and the establishment of Religion(s), typically in concert with governing bodies that seek levels of social control that would otherwise be 'unpalatable' to the free spirited.

Unfortunately, those who seek power and control almost never turn out to do so for anyones benefit but their own.

 

Yes I have, ad nauseum. You just disagree with my assessment of its necessity. Theres nothing more for me to tell you on the subject.

 

No, you haven't addressed:

""All that and you still haven't addressed the FACT that if we didn't HAVE the suffering and adversity we WOULD NOT NEED THE (REALLY SLOW) ADVANCEMENTS.

Your only answer was , "that's just the way it is"...

You haven't stated why? You just keep repeating that suffering is a good thing....(suffering YOU don't have to endure)

Many many advancements and creative acts have happened without the person suffering...showing that suffering is NOT needed.


Your premise is totally without logic...."we need suffering to end suffering".....

...and that despite the fact that suffering hasn't ended.

 

'We need suffering to end suffering' is breaking humanity down into unrealistic simplicity. Its always far more complicated than that.
We need suffering to advance. An end to suffering is but one result of our advancement.

 

I don’t need to starve to know I need food. I don’t need to live in poverty to understand what it’s like. You don’t need to be a woman to understand sexism. But I still don’t understand what this has to do with a supernatural God

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
No, you haven't addressed:

""All that and you still haven't addressed the FACT that if we didn't HAVE the suffering and adversity we WOULD NOT NEED THE (REALLY SLOW) ADVANCEMENTS.

Your only answer was , "that's just the way it is"...

You haven't stated why? You just keep repeating that suffering is a good thing....(suffering YOU don't have to endure)

Many many advancements and creative acts have happened without the person suffering...showing that suffering is NOT needed.


Your premise is totally without logic...."we need suffering to end suffering".....

...and that despite the fact that suffering hasn't ended.

Then WHY are you doing that !!!???

NO, we don't....many advancements have been made , many works of great beauty created, without suffering.......



You have NEVER addressed the FACT that:

If we didn't have disease we wouldn't need medical advances....you have NEVER addressed that...NEVER..

YOO-HOOOOOOO!

Suffering hasn't ended !!!

 

Enjoying heaven I suppose? I think's it's fair to ask why God would bother creating mortal beings on some rock in space where they will suffer and die. What does he get out of it?

 

'why' (imo) is adressed throughout this thread. start at the beginning.

'what does he get out of [creation]'

Excellent question that I have yet to find an adequate answer to. Though, might as well ask 'whats the meaning of life?'.

 

Thank you for admitting that you have no answer....you could've done that several pages ago...

 

My point... Be successful.. Rather than using those times arguing with others that will not lead you into success. Unless you are at an age where future success is limited, per say. The average age of retirement is 65, I think. "Sooner or later", said Mike to Barbara, "we all get older".