What would we be (or do) without pain and suffering?

So...what happens if, in heaven, you change your mind and want to inflict suffering on someone?

 

That does not appear to stop god from doing it all the time!

 

I dont know, Ive never been there. Speculatively, that wont happen. If heaven is a spiritual realm, the nature of our spirit will be finitely set prior to 'entry.' If Heaven is a physical place that we create in our 'enlightenment' (as I tend to believe), then it will be after we've progressed spiritually beyond the capacity to cause suffering.

Contrary to common expectations of the spiritual by the skeptical, I dont have all the answers, nor claim to.

 

The only people living in the world in a perfect, classless society, where big government takes care of all their needs are going to be in Godless, pagan Communist nations like North Korea, China, Cuba, Laos and Vietnam.

 

That requires the assumption that an omnipotent deity would immediately remedy its own suffering.

 

I don't believe in a god but without adversity humans would be:

Happy, stress free, much more loving and tolerant of each other, better off financially(no health insurance/Drug companies/doctors ripping us off), having the ability to feel pure joy because everyone can feel joy, not being horrified and depressed about the atrocities humans commit on one another, not saddened at the sight of innocent children with horrible afflictions like cancer, the freedom of not having to watch their children die from starvation or blown up in war or terrorist attacks, the happiness knowing that all the water and air is clean and safe for all the coming generations,


...I could go on but it's sounds pretty swell already.......I would never buy into that religious crap about how suffering is good....it's just their flimsy explanation for why their god is so nasty...

 

(now that Ive had time to research this...)

...as I suspected:

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/why-making-an-elephant-paint-is-cruel-not-cute/

They're taught to memorize the process of painting a specific picture... typically (though Im sure not always) through abuse. Their ability to remember is admittedly astonishing... but its no more a sign of 'creativity' than a parrot mimicking a tune.

You've been had.

 

While one might argue that many mating displays have a touch of "art" to them, there is no documented evidence that any animal other than humans have art.

If the recent reports of the discovery of cetacean culture are verified its possible that they may also appreciate abstraction, but that's mere speculation at this point.

 

Hmm... umm...

Perhaps live full healthy productive lives and learn how to love each other individually and as a collective human body ?

But let's not do that. Let us continue to run our society(s) on fear and intimidation. Let us have wars to traumatize generation after generation.

Let us build monuments to our violence against each other and encourage the psychologically damaged populations to worship them.

Yes, it is GOOD for you !

 

Define 'productive' in the context of a society where everything needed already exists and no work needs to be done.

 

That does not refute anything.

If the imaginary deity in question is a masochist then it might be willing to spend eternity in pain and suffering and impose the same on all of it's creations.

 

Ironic that you had to find something that disparages what the elephants are doing.

Yes, training elephants is cruel but to claim that it is only done to teach them how to paint is disingenuous.

The paintings are not memorized and many are just abstract art.

1.


2.





3.





Without clicking on any links could you tell which of those 3 paintings is done by an artist, which was done by an elephant and which was done by a child?

 

Actually, according to the fairy tale, God never intended that humans suffer. He intended that we all live in the garden of Eden forever, dumb and blissful.

But he gave humans curiosity, which led to Eve's sin. So of course he punished all of mankind.

When I program a system and it doesn't work the way I intended, I don't punish the robot. I guess god is a lousy programmer who can't take responsibility for his own screw ups.

But more to the point, Eve's sin was curiosity. So it seems we don't need to suffer to desire knowledge and advancement.

 

Please justify how torturing of babies helps humanity:

 

So either remedy immediately or spend eternity in pain are the only options?

What happened to feeling the pain, healing, moving on and growing from the pain emotionally to become a stronger individual?

People do that, why cant God?

 

Nope. But I have a bachelors degree in art. I took enough art history and appreciation to know that literally anything can be called art. An elephant playing with a paintbrush and paint is not necessarily an elephant showing creativity. Its not transfering any emotions or ideas into a communicable media (and IMO neither is a human who just makes a random mess and frames it).

Your example 1 shows creativity. If the elephant painted that, then I would like to see the documentation that it was done without specific training or instruction on how to copy an image, basically turning an elephant into a printer; a means to replicate human creativity.

The other two 'paintings' are not, IMO, creative. They both look like what would happen if I threw a cat and a mouse in an empty room with spilled paint on the floor. Its just the result of a paintbrush being moved chaoticly. I could see either of them being the result of an elephant mimicking a human painting a picture by making random marks on a canvas, and neither would convince me of any creative potential in the elephant.

 

Thats a difficult one. One possibility is medical advancement. Repairing horrifying/painful deformities is a driving force behind advances in surgery and preventing such altogether a driving force in genetic engineering. Both technologies are pivotal in human advancement. Perhaps this childs suffering is the driving force behind a new revolutionary medical technology that advances humanity into the next phase.

 

Why must it be 'punishment?' Seems to me that curiosity often leads to suffering simply as a natural effect of venturing unprepared into the unknown.

 

And enormous reward.

 

well yes. I thought that was a given

 

So that baby (and MILLIONS MORE) suffering is OK with you if it helps you.......

Where was "medical advancement " 40,50, 300, 3,000 years ago? It wasn't doing a thing for babies like the one pictured...they ALL suffered

 

Stop. There is nothing in what I said to indicate that suffering babies is 'OK' with me. Its not. You're projecting unreasonable assumptions on to me based on an emotional response to a specific disagreement. It might be a good idea to regain control of your emotions and return to a rational state before trying to debate further.

Medical advancement hadnt advanced yet, obviously. The advances we have now are a direct result of past suffering and the desire of humanity to do something about it. If there hadnt been any suffering, we wouldnt have made those advancements.

 

If there hadn't been babies suffering ( or any other afflictions and diseases) for hundreds of years we wouldn't have needed medical advancements....

YES, you clearly state that adversity is "good".......you just don't want to see the specifics of that "adversity"

 

So our children are just pawns in the game of human advancement. So it doesn't matter if a thousands of children have to suffer or the parents are made to feel helpless? It doesn't matter if it may take hundreds if not thousands of years for a cure to be found and humans to advance?

 

'Matter' in regards to what? I dont understand the question. Nor do I understand why you think human advancement is a 'game' or that any of us would be 'pawns' in its pursuit.

Could you rephrase?