Abortion FOUR TIMES DEADLIER Than Childbirth!

The point is that abortion-seeking women are complaining about pro-lifers forcing them to deal with the medical risks of pregnancy, but the truth is that the other option, abortion, isn't any better.

 

Though if a woman is told that if she continues with the pregnancy she will die I think she has the choice in that case. Though this is extremely rare and abortions that late on are almost never done except in cases like this.

 

And how often does that happen, exactly? Even in the rare cases that it does, most of the time it simply isn't true.
I have already explained this in much detail in another thread:
http://www.politicalforum.com/abortion/266663-late-term-abortions-real-reasons-they-performed.html

 

I don't think it's as much that but indicative of the fact that those who discuss issues intelligently do so.

If you can't spell, or even have the sense to download Mozilla Firefox, how smart can you be?

 

Usually if the maternal health or life is at risk she is given the option to abort early if however it is late term and particularly post viability we will simple caesar and deal with the premature infant. Late term abortions are almost always for foetal conditions incompatible with life

 

You really have to stop believing the rubbish on the so called "pro-life sites" their lies simply put them and anyone who quotes them at risk of looking disingenuous

Your original "study" was a misquoted cherry picked crock

Now you have offered us 20 year old statistics again misquoted - these are referring to "late term abortions" as being those over 16 weeks\



As you can see this is a very small minority of women - in that interim ultrasound has made a huge impact on pregnancy and RU486 has made a huge impact upon abortion - allowing earlier and easier access

It would be interesting to do a questionnaire today and compare results

 

It depends on when you define late term but even then I never denied it was rare I said as much in my post. My point was it happens and if such things happen then it should be available.

 

True though that was the point I was trying to make in my first response didn't make that clear later on.

 

Completely false. You should admit your mistake.

Ruth Padawer of the Bergen Record revealed that one clinic in Englewood, N.J., had performed 1,500 IDEs in 1994 alone! 1,000 more than pro-choice groups claimed had been performed in the entire country.

Columbia journalism professor Ruth Padawer of the Record of Bergen County wrote: "We have an occasional amnio abnormality, but it's a minuscule amount," said one of the doctors at Metropolitan Medical, an assessment confirmed by another doctor there. "Most are Medicaid patients, black and white, and most are for elective, not medical, reasons: people who didn't realize, or didn't care, how far along they were. Most are teenagers."

The Washington Post reported: Furthermore, in most cases where the procedure is used, the physical health of the woman whose pregnancy is being terminated is not in jeopardy.... Instead, the "typical" patients tend to be young, low-income women, often poorly educated or naive, whose reasons for waiting so long to end their pregnancies are rarely medical.

Key Facts on Partial-Birth Abortion

quote: Partial-birth abortions are performed thousands of times annually on healthy babies of healthy mothers. In 1997, Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers (1997), estimated that the method was used 3,000 to 5,000 times annually. In the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along, Fitzsimmons said. (The New York Times, Feb. 26, 1997, p. A11.)

Fitzsimmons estimate is conservative naturally, he was the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers after all.

Please don't serve as an apologist for an industry that lies and has been caught torturing 1000's of near-infants to death. Torture is the right word as unborn babies feel pain.

Doctors on Fetal Pain

 

From an article which boiled down to "someone said something to someone else but we have no real proof" No real definition of "late term abortion" of don't even go there with Fitzsimmons because the "national coalition of abortion providers" is a TRADE ASSOCIATION and even the pro-life sites admit he was a lobbyist and a liar - "but you still can believe him about what he said about the bad bits"

Meanwhile there has been multiple changes to the legislation since 1994 so this no longer applies.

It certainly does not apply to early abortion

 

Skeptical Heretic said,

Will go get the link. Of course this topic can be debated without even mentioning God. Science is on the side however of life…and is clear when a new human life starts. Ones faith certainly explains where they are coming from, and science can be included in that makeup…but if what I say threatens you so sorry. I believe this issue affects all others in a persons worldview.

If it is not a human being what is it? A rock? A piece of paper? A child because they are smaller is not an adult but still a human being, a person. A person in a coma, are they not still human beings, people? Even someone who is brain dead…but still on life support….are they not still human beings,people due respect?

That which is in the womb from conception…is human. Two humans created it…and that human is newly conceived person. You can't see this because your blinded by the power you want to give women. And that power kills living human beings.

I said…there are those on your side who have said…its not human…not a being. What you are saying then…its a human being…and yet you think women should be able to kill it. Right? How is that pro-life?

I never said your view was not like Hitlers? I said it was on life in regards to abortion. I am not even going to discuss Mother Theresa with you….your comments make me sick. And your lack of faith in God…not wanting to even talk about God….shows me where your heart is. I will say this….you couldn't walk in that woman's shoes…because your hearts are completely opposite…she values life and tries to preserve it…you want to kill it all in the name of the power of women.

 

I'll try to sum this up as briefly as possible. You keep going on about life like I said life does not equal personhood. Every self replicating cell is life, a plant is life and every known case of personhood is life (as it is a product of the brain) though there is a clear distinction from a person or even a conscious life and a non conscious life this is undeniable. Though there is a reason I want to keep the issue of God out it's because I have never really concerned myself with peoples religious beliefs if you want to believe in something like a God fine I just don't share that opinion so someone else's beliefs in religion won't change my opinion on the subject so it's not really going to add much to the conversation. Science however can change the minds of people as that's what facts do or should do.

Though it's clear what a fertilized egg is in medical terms it's called a zygot don't know what rocks have to do with it, it has human DNA so could be characterized as such though it might be better medically speaking to call it a human zygot though it having human DNA does not make it a person the same as not individual cell in your body is a person, a human being implies consciousness if it doesn't have it then it's not really a being though can still be considered a life. Though your analogy of a person in a coma is not valid they still have consciousness albeit not fully aware consciousness but the brain activity still indicates a conscious person, kind of how when you go to sleep you are not suddenly not a person. As for someone who is brain dead they are not being brain dead literally means you have no brain activity that's why we leave it up to the family to decide as someone who is dead cannot make a decision though if you really want to go by this we have technology to keep bodies alive for a very long time should we link every brain dead person up to them and keep billions of bodies alive? By definition this would be a pro-life advocacy as it is protecting what you consider a person is it not?

I have said all I really need to now on this, the reason I support a women's right to choose should be sort of self evident with what I said. Though I don't see how my lack of belief in a God is relevant to anything as being an atheist says nothing about me except that I don't believe in a God.

 

Skeptical Heretic

We are NOT TALKING ABOUT PLANTS OR ANIMALS….BUT THE LIFE IN A WOMANS BODY. THAT LIFE IS A HUMAN BEING, A PERSON. What does the abortionist kill? A plant or animal or inanimate object? No….a living human person…whose heart has already started beating. Your opinion won't change anyway…so what do you care? You dismiss the faith of God like its nothing? How do you explain the billions of believers in God on this planet? Are they all idiots? You insinuate that people of faith in God are stupid. I think your stupid for not believing…there ya go. You know why? Cause you can't begin to explain the first cause. All you could possibly do would be to throw your hand up in the air and say….I highly doubt there can't be a god…but I DON'T KNOW. I don't feel like an idiot…because I am good company, and think you are the one in the minority. Science is clear on life…when it starts…DNA….fetal gestation…and yet people with your worldview still don't care. With all the scientific information we have about the womb..and the life in it…ya still think women should be able to kill it.

Our world views are miles apart…..I will not change and you won't either. If you cared about the life in the womb…you would not be pro-abortion, and you are.

It does not matter what you know….you want abortion legal period. You support the right to choose…..but then you said CHOOSE ONLY UNTIL….? WHEN?

Your lack of belief in God affects everything about you…your entire worldview. And for someone who does not believe in punishment from some God….then hey lets get away with what we can…..who cares. Hitler didn't care did he? You have no one to answer too….so anything should go.

 

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure. Later term abortions are happening much more often than you may think. Somtimes the ambivalent woman just changes her mind. Sometimes it is that her boyfriend breaks up with her. Or in some cases, the woman is just so morbidly obese that she doesn't realise she is pregnant until well into the pregnancy.

 

Suuure they are - got proof??

BTW define what you mean by "Late term pregnancy" first

 

Nope! Not a person - does not have a birth certificate and has no identity as far as society is concern

May BECOME a person - may not

 

The smartest people in the world make typo's all the time when submitting journal articles and many do not have "Mozilla" because they can not be bothered.

This is an internet forum. Folks are rushing through posts many times. Only an idiotic fool does not realize that these folks are prone to make a typo once in awhile and that all are not English majors .. nor is being an English major the only indicator of intelligence and nor does every English major down load Mozilla, and nor does every English major not make typo's once in awhile.

Further .. English is not the first language of everyone on this site .. nor is speaking English fluently requisite to being "intelligent" nor is downloading Mozilla.

On the other hand .. what is an indicator of an inferior intellect is someone who engages in logical fallacy.

In your case "non sequitor" Now go educate yourself a little and try to figure out your fallacy hint "non sequitor"

 

Sorry if this response isn't that great I had a full response and it was deleted.

I can not think of one time I have ever called you or anyone stupid for believing in a God. Also my atheism doesn't address anything except the philosophical response to the claim there is a God to which I don't believe in because of lack of evidence it says nothing about my worldview as it has no inherent dogma or beliefs rather it's a lack of belief. Atheism provides no moral outlook of life you can be an atheist and be a humanist, a nihilist, a murderer, a charity worker etc. Also I don't know why you are bringing up quantum mechanics I could argue about it but I would rather stay on topic of biology or even morals.

As for plants I was making a comparison to conscious and unconscious life as a human zygot is an unconscious life a heart beat doesn't prove consciousness or the ability to feel pain I could keep a clinically dead persons heartbeat going by hooking them up to a machine it won't make them any more conscious. Also I have changed my opinion many times it just requires good evidence or a good argument depending on the claim. For this I think the evidence is against you well as far as peer reviewed papers go in the field if you want good evidence I would suggest you read through bowerbirds recent posts she posted better evidence than I have.

I had more detail in my original post so I apologize if this is slightly lacking in that regard.

 

Got proof they don't happen?

Late term pregnancy…you are the ones who should answer that one. If you think abortion should suddenly be stopped and the woman's rights taken away, when would that time be?

They have shut down just last and this year three huge late term abortion clinics around the country. Google…and you will get all the information you need.
Late term abortions go on all the time at the hands of abortionists who want to MAKE THE BIT MONEY.

 

Skeptical Heretic said,

Our religions define us. Mine affects the decisions I make and yours affects your morality.

It defines you because your entire wold view is based on that. You are living without God and it shows. You live by your own morality that you have made up. That morality could include honor killings, adultery..etc….both which you might find moral. They should be actually because if there is no God telling you what is moral…it is left up to you to decide for yourself. You find abortion ok…..that is your morality.

They are like apples and oranges…..plant life to human life. Look we could go around and around on this…so why bother. You are pro-abortion because you believe women should have additional power to kill her living offspring, and because that which is in the womb simply is not really there. You do not value the life in the womb in any state…any fetal gestational time.

You are simply pro-abortion, you want NO PROTECTION FOR THE LIFE IN THE WOMB.



I had more detail in my original post so I apologize if this is slightly lacking in that regard.[/QUOTE]

 

Boy is the world full of pompous and conceited people…self absorbed…in this case with the killing of innocent human beings in the womb.

 

Always a may not in your worldview…your the pro-abort not me. You get off on the killing the power you appoint to every woman. You don't see anything in the way of the woman who wants to kill her child. And its a child…you can argue all you want…but when a woman keeps the baby the terminology changes. It's the "little one", my baby. You don't use those terms because then you give it the personhood you deny so you hide behind words…that makes the abortion all the more acceptable. That is why you pro-aborts don't want women to have sonograms…so that they can see this humanity sucking its thumb, moving around looking like a baby.

Oh its a person alright….and that is why the morality of this issue will never go away. That is why some forty years later abortion is still at the top of all debates. It always will be….and science is on our side.

 

[/QUOTE]

I don't have a religion I already explained that my worldview isn't and will never be based on atheism. If you want a better representation of my morals I derive mine from secular humanism and certain philosophies, the golden rule is a popular example which was originally coined by Confucius but is now more commonly known because of Jesus the do unto others as you would like done to yourself philosophy. Though I prefer to think my morals derive from evidence like the golden rule I would not like to be killed so I would benefit from having a law that protects me from this and it would benefit society if we have people working together though that's more egoism on the other hand utilitarianism says we want to help our fellow man because we want people to live healthy and happy lives both can intertwine but these are two popular examples of morals. Though in my experience religious people already have moral beliefs and use religion to have some validity because I doubt you believe all atheists are evil or you would kill people if a God wasn't real or you only believe killing is wrong because your God says so I give you more credit than that.

Though it's not really completely different the only thing that separates different life is genes and consciousness and in the case of a human zygot it only has human DNA this does not make it a person I've already explained every cell in our body is a life and if we used our cells in a test tube it would show human life but it would not be a person this is where the argument of abortion derives from not whether it's a life yet you continue to say this over and over about life yet when I explain life is not inherently consciousness you just ignore it.

 

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/...bortions-facts-stories-and-how-you-can-help-0

The above is an excellent article and I loved the point made earlier in the article

And it is true - to believe that women are having abortions because of "convenience" or because they are "tired of being pregnant" is fly in the face of logic and reason

 

Wait, WHAT ?!
If that's not why women are getting abortions (in the vast majority of cases), why are they??