China plans double-digit boost in military spending

This is my defence, common law, capitalism, democracy and enlightenment.

 

I said that you did not know enough about it to put up a good argument and I was right. All you could come up with is one sentence.

Common Law? You mean laws that upheld British officials while robbing the natives of their land and their rights.

Capitalism. Fighting the Opium wars to make China buy the opium the British got from India and basically making many in China opium addicts or destroying the Indian weaving industry so that the British could pushed goods made in the north of England.

Democracy? Are you having a laugh? How do you have democracy when your country is owned and run by an invader?

Enlightenment? Do you mean that we lightened them of their money,goods and resources? We sure did.You might as well call it robbery as that is what it was.

 

No, I mean giving them law and order, and giving them the means to farm their land, under British control.

The Opium wars have nothing to do with capitalist, but the UK taking out a rival, something I wouldn't mind the west doing now. UK gave India railways, and increaced it's population by 70 million, and Britain did that because it didn't want to end up like the USA, setting styles but not making the cloths.

Yes democracy, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and the rest of the empire once we left. Also the US takes much of it's values from English common law, so does Canada.

No I mean new ideas and schools, getting rid of the power of religion and replacing it with science.

And guess with these are the 4 western ideals, do you think the west is bad?

Half a line is all I need to defend Britain.

LONG LIVE THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

 

They were farming their land fine until the British turned up and stole the best land for themselves and pushed the natives on to less productive land and they already had law and order and you certainly do not need law and order from an invader which puts their interests above all the native population.

We could also include the slave trade in the British empire where British slave traders took people from Africa to be sold to work on British colonies in the west Indies and money from that trade fuelled the industrial revolution in the UK. Liverpool,Bristol grew through the slave trade and that trade will always be linked to the foundation of the British empire.

The Opium wars were a set of wars against the Chinese government who did not want the British to import Opium from India which broke Chinese laws,seems they had a thing about their population becoming opium addicts. Going to war to push drugs is no way a fine achievement of the British empire and it had nothing to do with taking out a rival,it had to do with the British wanting to force trade on China.

Also the population of India has been increasing forever and it has nothing to do with the British and everything to do with the Indians. The British were exporting rice from India when there was famine as part of colonial policy and 10 million Indians died. I have already covered what the British did to destroy the Indian weaving industry so that they could push British made fabrics on India and they also brought in trade tariffs which made it difficult for Indian businesses to import to the UK,thus producing a monopoly.

I will quote Nehru the first Prime Minister of India on the British. He stated that every area of India where the British were the Indians got poorer or words to that effect.

Once we left pretty much destroys your argument. The natives in the empire never got to vote when the British were there as there was no democracy.You have named 3 white colonies and left out all the others. In Africa,no democracy,India no democracy,Malaya no democracy etc etc while the British were there.

Really? So you are claiming that the Christian religion was not involved in the British empire when the evidence says otherwise.Like China and India did not have any science before the British turned up. The Indians and Chinese had schools and universities while the British were living in mud huts.

The British empire is gone so no point claiming a long life for it,is there?

 

the radar is base on french tech. if you want get into that, isn't our radar technology base on UK radar 100yrs ago. they modify, improve, change based on existing technology. its ridiculous to say all their tech is direct copy of some foreign country. they study the technology, learn how it work, then make a new improve one for their domestic stuff. we do that too if we belief some foreign design is better.

as i said it before in the 90s they don't have any experience or technology to build advance military platform. study, steal, buying, is the best way to shorten this gap. if situation are reversed, US would do the same thing. US even has department specfic for reverse engineering foreign design. this is show how most people locking knowledge regarding china.

you even mention the design is old, but if you look at spec on new chinese ships its not equipped with 30yrs old tech. seriouslly when is it gonna get through your head that china build their current stuff by improving each generation of their military tech. only the 1st/2nd gen might be similar to original tech they acquired, all the later one change signficantlly from the origin. even the s300 change alot from russian version.

so again the components on the ship is not a direct copy of the origin, but variation of design changed over the decade. just like cars evolved throughout the century. if improvement made upon original stuff consider copying than almost all technology are copied from somewhere.

heck gun powder was invented in china, by your logic later version of gunpowder, tnt etc is also a copy.

 

just notice you said 52, not 52C, those two are total different ships in term of technology, equipments.

yes type 52 use french radar, GE engine etc, but that ships is pretty outdated and old. 52c use techonology design by china, and these technology are derve from things china acquire decades ago, and has significant difference vs french radar etc. for starter the radar is PAR.

 

And this is where we have major issues.

You talk of colonialism like it is a good thing. White Man's Burden and taking care of the poor wogs. Imperial expansion and denying people the choice of self government.

This is why we revolted against the Empire 236 years ago, and many other now free nations did the same thing since then.

If that is what it takes to be a Right Winger, call me a Left Winger.

 

No, not really. The Radar that the US has used for decades is hardly based on the original radar at all.

The system you are thinking of was based on the UK. This used a magnetron with an oscillator to send the signal through a modulator. This is the classic "revolving dish" that you saw from the 1940's through the early 1970's.

In the US military, this has been dead for decades (other then for collision advoidence). The US military for tracking and guidence all use phased array radar systems. This was designed by Nobel Prize Winner Lius Alvarez, from California.

There is almost no connection between the traditional RADAR system and Phased Array. Other then they both send out signals and then listen for the return. The way they do it are totally different.

But the fact is that most of the equipment on the Type 052s (new or old) is still heavily based on technology they acquired from others. Your article mentions the HQ-9 as an "indiginous missile". However, it is not. It started that way, but did not work as expected. So they got the plans from the Soviet S-300 series missiles, and basically recreated it to fit the HQ-9 launchers (to be more accurate, we are talking about the HHQ-9, not the HQ-9).

You may not like this, but that does not really matter to me. China has long been known in the military to be more of a copycat then an originator. Almost everything they have designed until the last few years have been nothing but locally made modifications of earlier technology they obtained from other countries.

 

Not surprisingly the US denied the Right of Self-determination to the People of Iraq and Afghanistan by invading those countries. We invaded and then imposed a "Top-Down" government upon the People. It was basically the "My way or the highway" imposition of government by the United States. I remember when the Iraq Constitution was voted on. The Iraqis were given a single Constitution, basically dictated by the US military, and the Iraqis were told either "Vote for this or face chaos" and that was the only choice they were given. Of course they ended up getting both because the Iraqi People did not define their own government. It was dictated to them by a few power hungry Iraqi's and the US military.

 

Oh, did you go through that list? It is interesting how much you claim is Chinese and is not.

HQ-9, already talked about that, Soviet S-300.
YJ-62, mentioned that earlier, it is an original Chinese invention.
100mm cannon, as your article also says, based on a French design.
Type 730 CIWS, modified version of the French SAGEM VOLCAN.
Fire and Control, based on a French design (but may be their own now)
Type 517H-1 search radar, Chinese made copy of the Soviet P-8 (NATO code named "KNIFE REST").
Type 327G "Rice Lamp" CIWS radar. This is an upgrade of the older Type 347G "Rice Bowl" radar, which was acquired from Italy.
Helicopters are Soviet/Russian Ka-28.
OK, engines are not longer GE. They are either made in the Ukraine, or a locally made copy of a British design.

Out of that list you gave us to show this is "Chinese", there is only one thing that is really "Made in China". Everything else is pretty much made in another country, or a direct copy of an item made elsewhere. Your own list states that a lot of this came from other countries like Ukraine, France and Russia.

Looking at this, it makes me realize how often they do this. Just look at the Comac ARJ21. Their new commercial airliner. Nothing but a copy of the MD-90, with the engines made by GE. Even the avionics are built by Rockwell and Honeywell. But like so many other things, it was supposed to fly in 2005, and the first to be available for purchase by early 2007.

However, it did not even fly until 2009, and they then announced commercial sales in 2010. Pushed back again until mid 2011. Then late 2011. We are now in 2012, and they still have not completed flight testing.

And even though they claim it is entirely "Chinese made and designed", that is simply not the case. The engines and avionics all come from the US, the design itself is simply a modified US design they purchased, and they had a lot of help from the Russian Antonov company.

If you look at "Chinese Made" large equipment, this is seen over and over and over again.

 

Did you forget the international conference on Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban? The UN and everybody else was present except the Taliban.

 

and the Afghans??

 

And the Taliban is still excluded from the government of Afghanistan although they represent a significant percentage of the population. It would be like banning Republicans or Democrats from the political process in the United States and then claiming that it's a representative government.

 

The Afghans were present in the form of Afghan Tajiks, Afghan Uzbek, Afghan Pashtun and Afghan Hasaara.

 

Taliban are a minority of Pashtun tribes straddling the Pakistan/Afghanistan border.

Edit: There is no unified Taliban movement. There are at least three separate Pashtun insurgencies...one of which involves Pakistani Taliban.

 

You mean they invited some expats and some warlords who supported the northern alliance,everyone else they ignored.

 

Do you remember the Loya Jirga they held? Everyone was represented there except the people who would come to dominate the Quetta Shura.

 

You were talking about the international conference in Bonn and now you have gone off in a different direction.

 

as i said before, china study foreign technology in the 80-90, even now, then create their own after study it. with each generation, the technology become more different compare to the original tech. now is 52C are total indigenous design, probably not, but compare to 52B it has more indigenous components, this is the pattern we seen over and over again. they adapt and study foreign technology, then made improvment upon it, with each generation, the difference become larger and larger. a good example is the bullet train, they bought technology/design from europe, then study it, and made changes to the design everytime they come up with new buillet train design, so the final version is too different to call it copy. china luck the experience/knowledge in engine design, hence why their jets use russia engines. in the 80s they can't even design their own Radar, but that changed over time. its naive to think J10, 52C, j20 is direct copy of foreign technology.

again is not made in other coutry, if you do a search on 52C, and read the spec youll know the technology are derving from foreign design, and there are major changes. can you said the current mustang is direct copy 90s or 2000 mustang, there are major difference.

the HQ9 may use russia motors, but its eletronic, guidance are much more different than russia version. china typically has better/same electronic compare to russia, one of the reason for this is because almost all the electronic are made in china, they acquire extensive knowledge because of this. many electronic can be dual used.

a copy is everything identical without any change, this is not what the chinese is doing, its not a copy & paste process. what the chinese doing is learn, acquire as much technology, information, experience as they can then use these knowledge to created their own stuff, this is a ongoing process, even now.

and yes i've been tracking alot chinese stuff since 90s, and no they are not direct copy of the technology they bought or acquired some other way. all the recent stuff has signficant modification compare to original tech. heck by your logic even some of the electronics in US military are made in china, so is that mean we are copying from china.

 

There was a loya jirga and an international conference. Everybody was present except the people who would become the Quetta Shura.

 

I would point out that not only was the Taliban, which represents a significant portion of the Afghan population, excluded from the political process but that the US also incarcerated members of the Taliban solely because of their religious/political beliefs. Five of these individuals maybe released to Qatar after ten years of being held as political prisoners. There is no evidence that they ever engaged in any terrorist acts or even any actions on the battlefield when the US lead invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. They were not terrorists and did not violate the laws and customs of war based upon what I've read.

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_new...es-to-be-transferred-out-of-guantanamo-prison

They will still not be allowed to participate in the politics of the country that is their country, not ours, under the conditions of release.

 

You are probably right, unfortunately.
.

 

The problem is not with having the best, most powerful, advanced and high tech military on the planet. We have that many times over. The problem is with our use of that military power and the cost of that use.

We could easily maintain the best, most powerful, advanced and high tech military on the planet for about 1/4th of the cost of our current military budget. All it take is to continue the annual investment of about $70 billion per year in R&D and convert from predominately a standing US military to predominately a reserve military and we could slash the cost of US defense spending dramatically. Of course such a military would be dedicated to actually defending the United States as opposed to foreign military interventionism that violates the Rights of the People of those nations.

 

and they still manged to form a government which is corrupt and full of drug dealers.

 

As you now admit, everyone but Mullah Omar and his gang were involved in the political process.