Defeating the bogeyman of single payer healthcare

Sounds good but in other countries like Canada you wait many months for procedures that happen here in days.

 

Government adds 100% through inefficiency.

 

You can't shop around for someone to save you from a heart attack, or stroke, or car accident like you can for a land scaper.

Which is why healthcare isn't a commodity, and can't function as a free market system.

 

Of course not. That is why we have catastrophic health care insurance. But most of health care offers the opportunity to indeed shop around and compare prices and results via evaluations on the internet. Look at lasik eye procedures for an example of how quality and price have moved up and down respectively.

 

You still think healthcare is a commodity? 25 years ago there was a joke about that... "Do you want fries with your pap smear"?

 

Thank you for acknowledging it isn't a commodity, and can't operate in a free market system.

 

There you have it, health is taken for granted. We have just as much right to poor health as we do good.

I don't have a problem with a single payer system if it solves the problems we have now with health care. The problem i have is the US government in its current form being that payer.
I don't trust them.

 

Please re read my post and my discussion throughout this thread.

 

I'd rather have EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY have the ability to get orthopedic surgery regardless of their economic station in life. If that means I have to wait a couple more months for non life threatening surgery, I think I can live with that trade off.

another thing I could live with is this situation - another example of the out of control costs in America.

Avg cost of knee replacement surgery in the US - $49,500 ( https://www.healthline.com/health/total-knee-replacement-surgery/understanding-costs )
Avg cost of knee replacement surgery in Canada - $16,500 (http://www.knee-replacement-explained.com/cost-of-knee-replacement.html )

I'd say waiting a couple of months to save $33,000 is not a bad deal either.

 

WTF? I consistently go to the ORIGINAL source material of whatever story is used as a link. Apparently you never learned to question sources, despite this being a fundamental aspect of all academic and scientific endeavors.

Alinsky would be proud? My momma would be prouder.






No that is NOT the issue. Amazing how it doesn't seem to penetrate when I tell you that of those estimated 52,000 procedures, at any one time there are roughly a couple of million Canadians in the US for long periods of time.

I don't deny there is a small % of Canadians that are medical tourists. But putting it in perspective and considering the migratory nature of the large number of snowbirds, it ain't a problem and certainly not an indication of the quality of the Canadian healthcare system.

And yes, Canadian provincial healthcare plans will cover out of country medical expenses to a degree. But only to a certain maximum amount per procedure.. That's why there is a booming travel insurance business, but that typically doesn't cover non-emergency surgeries for pre-existing conditions. (to avoid fraud, not to stiff for pre-existing).

 

No the canadian system is not running out of money.

Wait times are not expanding they are contracting almost across the board.

the system is not "moving to privatization" it is examing the role of privatization in supplementing existing services and elminating bottlenecks as do a large number of other nations that also have universal healthcare. As it stands right now there are both private clinics and hospitals in Canada right now - all accepting provincial insurance. there is also private supplemental health insurance that covers the patient for the roughly 30% of medical services not covered by their provincial plan, including but not limited to such things as private rooms, rehab services, chiropractic, physio, etc. etc. Most diagnostic clinics are private. the difference is that they can't charge whatever the hell they like for standard services.

As for homework, you apparently aren't that good at doing your own.

But keep diggin' if you want. the Facts and reality won't change but quite possibly with a tad more knowledge your opinion might.

 

Get back to me when your hip is grinding bone on bone for 30 extra weeks.

You won't see any of that "savings" neither will the rest of us.

The cost for 2 adults without children is $11,381, that's $5690.50 per adult or $474.20 per adult per month in additional taxes. My employer sponsored health care costs me $32 a month with $20 co-pays for everything.

 

Thank you.

These are exactly the kind of trade off's we should be discussing in healthcare. You are getting rationing either way. Do you want it based on price or availability? Your side"s inability to admit there are any trade offs usually make the discussion between healthcare plans irrelevant. But hopefully others on your side can start discussing this from a reasonable position.

 

How about honestly understanding the flaws in the Canadian health care system that drives that growing number of Canadians out of the country for medical treatment because they cannot get that treatment in a timely manner in Canada.

 

The facts are contrary to all you have posted above. Do your homework.

 

The ol' broken record defense. Effective on the playground where you never have to prove your own assertions, not so much when dealing with people who actually know stuff.

 

I honestly understand the flaws because as I have repeatedly pointed out to you I have lived it on an extremely intimate personal basis. I went thru all the usual parental Medical freak outs with my four kids, gone thru the end games of my parents and in-laws and had my own tribulations.

So my "UNDERSTANDING" is based on experience over DECADES where as your in depth knowledge appears to be based on a quick google search and zero experience.


I fail to see how your blatant intellectual arrogance can be merited when it appears so predicated on clownishly stubborn intellectual dishonesty not to mention one dimensionality.

 

It is what's going on now that is important. The Canadian Health Care System is collapsing just as any socialist system eventually does. The increase in illegal immigration is accelerating the process.

I fail to understand why this is not apparent even more so to those who live in Canada.

 

You still think healthcare is a commodity? 25 years ago there was a joke about that... "Do you want fries with your pap smear"?

Its pointless. He knows nothing about healthcare.

 

I want an equitable balance between price, availablity and quality while providing universal accessibility. that requires trade offs and compromises which every complex system requires. Even donnie eventually learned that its complex.




As for your admonishment, you would do well to accept your own advice.

 

Hide your head in the sand or show some curiosity and initiative. That's your choice. I could care less what you choose to do.

 

That's funny. But expected from lib progs whose faith based ideology is called into question.

 

And the best way to achieve this is by competition in a free market for health insurance and health care. The trade offs are made by consumers based on what they want to purchase. BIG GOV health care cannot make general decisions (which is the only thing that can be done via regulation) which make sense to the entire spectrum of health care consumers.

 

Guess you've never heard of triage or pain killers. It ain't first come first serve.

That wasn't the point.

that aint' how it works but nice try.

That $11K (cdn) is a fictional number representing the total cost of healthcare divided by the number of wage earners/families to arrive at fictional Insurance premium cost.


By comparison the costs in the US are $10345US for EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN which if the same "wage earner/family" algorithm is applied it would be (3,350,000,000,000 / 126,000.000) something on the order of $26,500 per household. Oh and that doesn't include the exchange rate.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/new-peak-us-health-care-spending-10345-per-person/

In ONTARIO the most a family of four will pay with one wage earner is around $950 per year (at $250K). If the wage earner also has employee benefits then they may pay an additional couple of hundred dollars per year.[/QUOTE]

 

I totally disagree that is the best way.

The "free market" you are proposing isn't "free" at all in the capitalist sense. But it does sound nice on a bumpersticker.

Guess you are unaware that there is a rather healthy private health insurance market in Canada. The compete vigourously and they even make a profit.