Does the Bible support forceful coercion as a means to true morality?

These are the posts I refer to.

 

Sounds like he abandoned the Presbyterian ministry before he ever attained it.

 

Whoa whoa whoa, 2 hard core christians disagreeing on christianity? Peace, love, joy, forgiveness.

 

Every single thing you wrote in that last post is based on the Bible, or arguments made by others that are based on the Bible. That is no different from the arguments made by Muslims based on their Quran. You keep saying you're getting X from studying your book, but the Muslims can't say the same. They say they can. This is not about measuring anyone's theology against another. It's about backing up your assertions with more than a single, demonstrably contradictory and inaccurate source. The Muslim comparison is meant to show you how silly your argument looks. "My religion is right, and all others are false, because my religious book is right and their religious books are wrong." That is an absurd argument that may work with others who agree with you, but means nothing to the rest of us.

 

You lack reading comprehension. I did not say that the Muslims religious book is wrong by simply asserting that my book is right. I am saying my book is right because of the coherency theory. The book gives me a complete coherent theory. The other does not.

 

Again with the books but I can already see from your posts you are good at typing words.

Did I say science was a philosophy? No but now that you mention it I would certainly consider philosophy to be a science.

Can you not think of any? How about the Chinese?

Science is the reason we have the internet. The bible has never quantified anything.

A Government of Christians no doubt.

God has been the leading cause of death since the beginning of time. We should all aspire to be more like our creator should we not?

You suggest science is the cause of death rather than human beings, human beings who have never shown their morality to be more malevolent than when under the direction of their religions.

There is always room for improvement in the human experiment and to me not having someone knock a whole in my head to release the demons just because I have a headache is certainly an improvement.

What an intellectual response. Your books must be real page turners.

The fundamentalist anger is never hidden that far under the surface. You think I love my country for all it has done? I personally don’t like the idea of countries any more than I like the idea of ideologies. We are a dramatic consequence of dramatic beginnings and so the failures will be equally dramatic. But if I have to choose between the ideology of an arrogant assumption and the trials and tribulations of human inquiry, reason and a growing understanding as how best to progress into the future I choose the later.

 

If you believe the bible passes the coherency test, your books must be a hoot, as you clearly have very poorly developed reading skills.

 

You say that the Quran doesn't. They say that it does. You're still essentially saying that the Bible is true because it appears to be so, and that it has been revealed to you to be so. Which is exactly the same thing Muslims say about the Quran. Your OP ends with the declaration that those of us who don't agree with you simply don't believe the Bible. Well you haven't offered any reason to believe the Bible. We aren't any more likely to believe you and your book simply because you say so than you are to believe the Quran simply because the Muslims say so.

 

Let's talk about hubris.
You sit and masturbate at a keyboard and produce pages and pages of ejaculate that you call "books". Have you ever sold one? Have you ever published one? Has anyone ever read one? What criteria do you bring to the table that would compel someone to take them seriously as the work of a competent expert in your field?

 

Since we can not know from the Bible how one gets into heaven due to contradictory stories, how can you claim a coherent theory ?

 

I am seeing my words being twisted, and ignored. I am also seeing this being turned into a personal inqusition and I suffered enough of that already at the hands of the State Church (501 (c) 3) here in America which I abandoned long ago. I am well aware of the inquisitional qualities of the moden day atheist. I'm done here.

 

A lot of people run when faced with questions they cannot answer.

 

When we wonder how people become ignorant or sustain it that is how it happens.

“17. CLAIM YOUR OPPONENT IS BEING UNREASONABLE OR WON’T LISTEN TO REASON, AND LEAVE IN A HUFF.”

http://battalions2.wordpress.com/2006/06/21/good-old-liberal-debate-tactics/

He pretty much used them all.


“I suffered enough of that already at the hands of the State Church (501 (c) 3)” (Olivianus)
http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-...-Requirements-Section-501(c)(3)-Organizations

Oh, my…

******

“Since we can not know from the Bible how one gets into heaven due to contradictory stories, how can you claim a coherent theory ?” (Giftedone)

We have Red Letter editions of the Bible for a reason, because what Jesus said is the way:

“16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

You see one question asked at the Fundamental Baptist Madrassa, that kind of stuck with me, “what about those who have never heard of Jesus?” Well, Jesus answered that. Even a homo or Carl Sagan (even if he could not believe in a little god), and quite a few of different beliefs could do all those things. "Go and sin no more?"

 

Wait this is the reason I haven't received a response to my last post?

What strength his God must give him.

 

Yeah, pretty hilarious.
Persecution!!!!
Inquisition!!!!
MOM! They were mean! They asked questions!

 

So...we should accept this god thingy simply because you say so or you will feel buthurt and run away.


Typical.

 

There is only a very small problem with applying the coherence theory of truth to the bible.

You have to start out with a known set of propositions that the believer accepts as true. A small yet significant exercise in self referential philosophical support. this is called the specification objection. Nothing in the coherence theory actually indicates if a proposition is in fact true.

Then again, many propositions are not related in any way to any one particular proposition. These truths are said to be transcendent of any proposition, and coherence theory has no mechanism for accomodating them.

Its laughable that anyone would apply the coherence theory of truth to tthe bible. The starting proposition must include such know "truths" as god exists, jesus is his son/aspect, noah built a boat, there was a global flood etc. etc. OR the starting propositiion is the bible is god's word and therefore everything in the book of god's word is true.

Simplistic nonsensical philosophic sleight of hand. But that is the nature of philosophy I guess, you can essentially explain or justify anything and everything given that evidence is not required, merely semantic consistency applied to some proposition or observation.

 

"The House on Pooh Corner" also passes the coherency test.
Amen.

 

You give a passage from Jesus showing a works based salvation.

Sola Fide (salvation by faith alone) is the Protestant doctrine and the doctrine preached by Paul. Are the Protestants wrong and should we discard Paul ?

 

I think that we should, but here's Annette Funicello's opinion. (A person who, imho, is far more worth mourning than Margaret Thatcher.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne2yFQPYYmU

- - - Updated - - -

Here's Annette Funicello's opinion. (A person who, imho, is far more worth mourning than Margaret Thatcher.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne2yFQPYYmU

 

Not only are you to accept that there is a God, you are also to accept that these humans know exactly the nature of this God. They know what this God thinks, and what this God likes and dislikes.

You must accept that God regularly talks to them about various social issues that crop up such as Abortion, Alcohol, Dancing and head scarves for women.

They know what this God thinks and they speak for this God so you must obey.

 

Depending upon the sense of the word, Satan has faith and he believes in Jesus and God with all his evil heart. The rich want it to be all about belief so they can be saved-uh, God be praised they go to church in their finest, then as Church treasurer go to their store on Sunday to deposit the collections in the safe on the north facing wall, which is across and to the left of the file cabinet that has on top the shoebox full of laws they have broken. Then when they die and it is standing room only; knowing that I have not achieved such good works I have it in my will not to have a funeral. So does faith with a shoebox full of crimes, like Hamlet Act III Scene III says, “my words fly up, my thoughts remain below, words without thoughts never to heaven go,” mean that we are saved by faith alone? When the church going republican county attorney (who is sole arbiter of all ethics violations right up until being fired after a 28 year perfect record of defending the county from lawsuits) and his minions bear false witness, so the rich man’s church going criminal widow does not have to obey the law either, are they all SAVED?

Notice how this is presented as an argument:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:14-26&version=NKJV

Certainly blessed are those that believe and have not seen the shoebox full of crimes on top of the church treasurer’s file cabinet or that of his widow, or stuck fingers in Jesus, and so without good works we might as well just call belief in ghosts insane.

Never discard anything, that shoebox is evidence you cannot hide from God; {do you hear me cousin?} An argument is presented because we are adults and not robots; so think on it, and you might find that the belief in the name on the paper a professor wants you to stomp on will not save you, but giving up a crown for the shoebox might.

 

I have quoted from James 2 many times and his comment "even demons believe" is classic. James 2 is a response from (James, brother of Jesus and leader of the Jerusalem church) to what he saw as a flawed doctrine that was being professed by various Christian groups of the day. This doctrine of course was that which Paul was preaching.

At one point James calls this doctrine (salvation by faith alone) foolish. Jesus seems to concur with James as every time entrance into the kingdom of heaven is mentioned Jesus speaks of works.

So what is to be done then ? Do we toss Paul completely or just ignore his (Salvation by faith alone) doctrine.

 

Tossing everything is like burning books. We should accept that it is repeatedly put forth that we all have fallen short of the glory of God, what someone sees as contradictions is just proof of what Jesus said in that regard. It is why I had the guy flipping pages at the Wilds Christian camp trying to prove the Bible with the Bible; such proof cannot be done.

I think forgiveness requires us to accept there are situations where someone could be truly repentant and yet not have the time for life of works, like that thief on the cross. Would a rich man who has the means to be more charitable receive a greater crown than a poor person that would have to do without food to tithe? No.

Simply following the Golden Rule at times could be a work. Like say walking down the street seeing someone who is Muslim…treating them like you want to be treated, greeting them as a brother…and not assuming they are a terrorist with a salami bomb up their butt. I worked in a church once and was working on a Saturday during some kind a youth conference meeting and was dirty, got lots of dirty looks and heard bad comments from the clean ones who were there to party.

It is really up to each person to apply the philosophy of the Golden Rule to any scripture (canonized Bible or otherwise) or situation, not to take one verse, chapter, or book of Paul (or Old Testament) as God’s word excluding all else.

I do not consider the Bible or any book such as the Koran is revealed, or is as the pure Word of God, men are inspired by God, but Jesus did not say any man was perfect. I think any contradictions or differences in the Gospel, which would be consistent with psychology 101 passing a whisper around the class and it come out wrong, prove the point. Jesus did not say we would be given a book, but a Holy Spirit, and Paul should have no more of lock on that one than anyone.

Believing that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” is one thing, but removing our own filter of the Golden Rule (the law of the prophets) and claiming Paul’s Holy Spirit was a better filter than another only makes any contradictions a shot to the foot.

Christians should spend a little more time thinking, and understanding that no man is perfect, than following blindly a cannon or dogma of a favorite that was shoved down their throat by equally imperfect men under the direction of Constantine…as if the Christian of today has no potential Holy Spirit of their own to deal with the reality of today.

I cannot be God’s mouthpiece, only inspired by him. If we make a mistake and accept Homos, and feel that is it is better for them to marry than burn in lust, let God be our judge.

 

Your philosophy makes a great deal of sense IMO and mirrors the message of Christ very well. One part where I thought Paul nailed it was when he describes judgement saying that at the end of days it is our secret thoughts that will be judged.

Intent matters Some folks have nasty thoughts and evil plans and some do not.

It is very common for religious folk to use religious belief as justification to control others. Sometimes this control is exerted through state violence or coercion by passing laws.

You mentioned this but it is also one of my pet peeves when someone claims to speak for God (God's mouthpiece). No human speaks for God. Not the Imam, not the Pope, and certainly not the local minister.