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Donald Idiot on Finland Fires prevention.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Bush Lawyer, Nov 19, 2018.

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  1. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    And much of California's forest have gone untouched for decades! I guess residents can rest assured knowing all that kindling will no longer be a risk or contributing factor now!
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
    ButterBalls, Nov 20, 2018
    #176
  2. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    And if you remove the dead trees what will happen to the erosion around the creeks?
     
    Bowerbird, Nov 20, 2018
    #177
  3. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Best laugh of the day MPO :) Erosion control come from root systems.. Roots from dead trees decay very slowly, allowing plenty of time for new growth from other species to take their place LOLOL..

    Are you suggesting forest management remove the roots of harvested dead tree's :wierdface:
     
    ButterBalls, Nov 20, 2018
    #178
  4. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Forestry product companies large and small pay for the privilege of maintaining forests. When they aren’t allowed to there are unintended consequences one of which is large scale uncontrollable fires.

    Permaculturists have a saying, “if you don’t want pigs, you must do the pig’s work”. Same applies to forest management. If you take away or otherwise interfere with the natural things like grazing, browsing, frequent small scale fires, etc. you must replace these activities with mechanical controls/manipulations.

    CA thought they knew better and killed a bunch of people.
     
    557, Nov 20, 2018
    #179
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  5. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    New trees can grow. Dead trees aren’t very effective erosion controllers.
     
    557, Nov 20, 2018
    #180
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  6. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    i think the point would be to have a study really assess what finland is doing and how applicable it is to our situation.

    For example.... the head of japan could tell donal trump how japan handles guns... and then say using this approach japan has no problem with guns. Would it then be reasonable to conclude that we should adopt japanes gun control policies?
     
    ARDY, Nov 20, 2018
    #181
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  7. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Hell there are folks that live their lives in cities that very seldom see a star, let alone a forest :)

    [​IMG]
    Light pollution affects primarily the observations of faint objects, such as nebulae or distant galaxies. Bright objects such as the Moon, the big planets, or some of the bright stars, are not affected by light pollution.
     
    ButterBalls, Nov 20, 2018
    #182
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  8. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe we should hand a rake to each caravan asylum seeker, and send them to the forest to earn a visa.
     
    Hotdogr, Nov 20, 2018
    #183
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  9. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Btw, i suspect that finland has laws and policies in order to accomplish their forest management objectives. Those laws and policies are sometimes known as REGULATIONS. And we all know trump wants fewer regulations not more

    It also happens to be the case that large portions of forest are federally owned and managed. Ergo a federal responsibility

    There is also a large amount of privately owned lands. It is unclear how california could change how these lands are managed without hated regulations
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
    ARDY, Nov 20, 2018
    #184
  10. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstand. Regulations caused the problem.
     
    557, Nov 20, 2018
    #185
  11. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Humm, would that happen to include donald trump? I doubt trump has ever gone camping in his entire life
     
    ARDY, Nov 20, 2018
    #186
  12. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which regulations...? Are you saying that the finish forest raking trump refered to would naturally happen if we got rid of regulations
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
    ARDY, Nov 20, 2018
    #187
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  13. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
    kriman, Nov 20, 2018
    #188
  14. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Environmental regulations preventing management of forests.
     
    557, Nov 20, 2018
    #189
  15. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    He has owned a few nice yachts ¯\_(º¸º)_/¯
     
    ButterBalls, Nov 20, 2018
    #190
  16. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Bet the stars are spectacular from a yacht. :)
    Sadly I wouldn’t know firsthand though.
     
    557, Nov 20, 2018
    #191
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  17. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    Tree farms in the west are forests. There is no difference whatsoever. The type of tree farm I own is completely natural forest and cannot be planted. The trees are not evenly spaced and they are over steep difficult terrain. The western United States is nothing like Australia and I do not believe comparison are helpful or useful. There may be more board feet of lumber in the county I live in than the entire continent of Australia.

    Feel good environmentalism which is not rooted in scientific and sustainable forest management practices is a much greater threat to the forests than climate change is.
     
    Lee S, Nov 20, 2018
    #192
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  18. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    And he didnt jerk austrailias chain either

    so you are wasting our time fishing for a debate with me
     
    Mac-7, Nov 20, 2018
    #193
  19. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    I respectfully suggest that we really do not need another study when we have thousands of studies which are site specific to the western United States. All the studies say the same thing, clean the forest floors of fuel or risk catastrophic fires. The problem isn't knowing what to do to make things right or even having the resources to fix the problem. The real problem isn't even regulations. The problem is forest management practices are not conducted by those individuals who are trained to manage forests in an intelligent manner using sound scientific principles but are carried out by judges who have no knowledge of sound forest practices backed by scientific principles through lawsuits filed by feel-good, know nothing environmentalists who also have no knowledge of sound forest practices. In the United States, far too often we are using some of the least qualified individuals to manage forests.
     
    Lee S, Nov 20, 2018
    #194
  20. MissingMayor

    MissingMayor Well-Known Member

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    See, that is the problem. I am not familiar with ANY "private forrest". In NJ and PA we have several large forests, none of which are private. None of them are raked and cleared.
     
    MissingMayor, Nov 20, 2018
    #195
  21. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That could all be true. I remember this issue came up in conjunction with a huge fire that was allowed to burn in Yellowstone park for the reasons you specified. The fact is that sound forest management as you mention is in conflict with various other interests who do not like letting fires burn out the undergrowth

    I suspect that people who want to harvest trees would not be thrilled about letting fires burn out the undergrowth. Also, once you supress fires, and therefore accumulate undergrowth... there is no easy way back, because the undergrowth is there and any fire risks exploding out of control. It is simply not economically viable to pay people to go in and clear millions of acres of forest undergrowth

    I am sure that there have been lots of studies (as you say)
    But, i doubt that finnish forest management practices could be effortlessly applied to our forests,
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
    ARDY, Nov 20, 2018
    #196
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  22. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    I will cede that you are correct on this in the eastern United States where almost all forests are deciduous and either privately owned or state owned. In the west we have coniferous forests which are maybe 50-50 privately and government owned. To my defense, the original subject was wildfires in the west.

    I admit I am woefully uninformed concerning deciduous forests, but I don't think the inherent burn properties of deciduous trees compares to the burnability of fir and pine trees.

    In the west there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of acres of private and public forest lands. Most catastrophic wildfires occur on public land. There are some wildfires that occur on private land, but they are generally not as severe and do not spread as far. The contrast, in my opinion, is that private forest land are allowed to practice scientifically based forest management without interference from the courts.
     
    Lee S, Nov 21, 2018
    #197
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  23. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    If you are growing Douglas fir trees, then occasional small controlled fires are not a bad thing. The extremely thick bark of the trees will not be damaged by the small fire and there has been some studies about the benefits of allowing small fires to burn and clean out the underbrush and kill insect infestations in the lower bark of the tree.

    The type of trees I grow, I don't want any fire anywhere around them for any reason. I clear the underbrush by hand (Okay, I use chainsaws and power ground scythes) and after a labor intensive initial cleanup, it is real easy to maintain a fire safe forest.

    I think one shouldn't look at the cost of the initial forest floor cleanup without balancing that cost against the monetary damage to property and the cost of human lives of a catastrophic fire such as the Paradise Fire.
     
    Lee S, Nov 21, 2018
    #198
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  24. MissingMayor

    MissingMayor Well-Known Member

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    I found this on California forests:

    It appears that less than a million acres would be owned by anyone with land over 50 acres. And the timber companies are having economic issues due to lack of demand.

    https://ucanr.edu/sites/forestry/California_forests/
     
    MissingMayor, Nov 21, 2018
    #199
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  25. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thks
    Sadly people tend to avoid large upfront costs for claimed long term benifits. Even private forest owners do not make such investments in their property as far as i know
     
    ARDY, Nov 21, 2018
    #200
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