Egyptian army slaughters protestors (Thread #2 )

allegoricalfact · Aug 20, 2013

Abu Sina said: ↑

neither do I

it's just beyond belief to me that Westerners can support this!!!
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It is too complicated to try to unravel the minds of the great brainwashed .

Most of us like it simple. A is the goodies and B is the baddies and we can't cope with it if our chosen goodies do anything bad but it never is that simple, people are not just good or bad are they?

I liked the speech, thank you for posting it Are you all sleeping OK ? and are the shops open ect. Do you feel safe ?

allegoricalfact · Aug 20, 2013

politicalcenter said: ↑

Westerners do not support it.

But we do know that no matter what happens the U.S. will be blamed.

Did you not blame us when the army under Mubarik was using tear gas? Now you want our money and our involvement?

This is an Egyptian problem....sad but true. We do not need more soldiers dying and money spent supporting people that hate us.
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I don't think they do want your money though, there is a group of Egyptians collecting names on a petition asking that Egypt refuse your 'aid' and they certainly don't want your soldiers, what for?

Abu Sina · Aug 20, 2013

No one is sleeping properly

I live in compound and we have own security and we also have army installation across our main road so I don't feel threatened inside the compound and all shops are still open till about 3am and life is normal inside.

I try to avoid East of Cairo or Downtown now with ikhwan going crazy but it goes up and down really.
Life is actually going on as normal unless they are protesting out in streets.

It's quiet now but Friday they will all be back going crazy again

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allegoricalfact said: ↑

I don't think they do want your money though, there is a group of Egyptians collecting names on a petition asking that Egypt refuse your 'aid' and they certainly don't want your soldiers, what for?
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Americans are so out of touch with reality that we often don't even respond to their nonsense like this

allegoricalfact · Aug 20, 2013

Abu Sina said: ↑

No one is sleeping properly

I live in compound and we have own security and we also have army installation across our main road so I don't feel threatened inside the compound and all shops are still open till about 3am and life is normal inside.

I try to avoid East of Cairo or Downtown now with ikhwan going crazy but it goes up and down really.
Life is actually going on as normal unless they are protesting out in streets.

It's quiet now but Friday they will all be back going crazy again

- - - Updated - - -

Americans are so out of touch with reality that we often don't even respond to their nonsense like this
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Of course you're not sleeping .........poor darlings you all need a good holiday You must all be exhausted. Glad the shops are open and that you and yours live in a safe place. So frightening for you all. The whole of Egypt must be in shock.

I can only wish peace for you all as soon as possible and that your Land prospers in a while and that the Ikhwans' childen get better educations for your future peace

Friday nights can be crazy here to but I won't swap our drunks for your Ikhwan ...................

I don't usually respond to silly ones either but sometimes can't resist.

Abu Sina · Aug 20, 2013

allegoricalfact said: ↑

Of course you're not sleeping .........poor darlings you all need a good holiday You must all be exhausted. Glad the shops are open and that you and yours live in a safe place. So frightening for you all. The whole of Egypt must be in shock.

I can only wish peace for you all as soon as possible and that your Land prospers in a while and that the Ikhwans' childen get better educations for your future peace

Friday nights can be crazy here to but I won't swap our drunks for your Ikhwan ...................

I don't usually respond to silly ones either but sometimes can't resist.
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shukran habibti

Injeun · Aug 20, 2013

Abu Sina said: ↑

neither do I

it's just beyond belief to me that Westerners can support this!!!
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Most Americans either support the Egyptian military or are unsure. The support here for Morsi is a minority. And it's not because they support the MB. It's because they believe the majority of Egyptians elected Morsi. And the way Democracy works is to wait until the next election and vote him out. This, Americans who support Morsi believe is the civil path to change. Still it is Egypts choice, and not Americans, to make.

alexa · Aug 21, 2013

I began open to the coup because it appeared to have the will of the people but more because I was against the rebels in Syria and that was the turn that Morsi took – in saying it was all right for Egyptians to go and fight there and standing by some man collecting fighters – that was the main reason, I was open to the coup.

However I said from the beginning it would only work if no charges were made against Morsi and it was solved extremely quickly. Otherwise it is civil war that is being started and particularly in this area at the moment, not a good future.

I felt unsure when when a report came in that Morsi had made agreement to all the conditions, except he would stay on as President and would arrange prompt elections rather than stepping down and going into exile. At that point it showed that Morsi was going regarding to anything he did. I stll stayed open to it but had doubts. The arrest of journalists and closure of their ability to report also gave a red light – it is not necessary to do this unless one has a reason to provide propaganda and hide the other point of view.

Then bit by bit as things happened I became more and more sure that this even if it managed to get public support was not primarily a civilian rebellion but a carefully and craftily carried out Military Coup.

Moon stayed one hundred percent along with his values. He has been about the strongest supported for the Assad regime here so to suggest it would be in his interests to have Egyptians going to fight with the Saudi's as rebels is ridiculous. He was going on a strong belief that you do not do coups on democracy for any reason.

I stay by both my values, my knowledge of psychology and my reading of the situation based on a lot of and on going investigation. No one here has supported any violence done by anyone and the repeated attempts by some on this forum to suggest that of people who follow the title of this thread, illustrate a lack of argument to issues presented and attacking posters rather than argument.

What is strongly reported in the UK is the amount of misinformation which is given in Egypt, in an attempt to tarnish all Brotherhood as terrorists. For that I leave it to one of our journalists, Patric Kingsley who was at the Mosque at the w/e to speak He was arrested twice, one time after having been attacked by people telling him he was a Muslim Brotherhood member, been taken away on a moter bike beaten up, had his laptop and other things stolen and then taken to a police station.

Egypt's cruellest week

Since troops moved in on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt has erupted in violence. It has been grim to witness, says Patrick Kingsley. But worse must surely follow

The police lieutenant put his boots up on the desk and casually reloaded his machine gun. "The problem is," he said, nodding at a television that was live-broadcasting the siege of a nearby mosque, "these people are terrorists."

It was mid-afternoon last Saturday, and for nearly 24 hours, the lieutenant's colleagues in the police and army had surrounded the al-Fath mosque in central Cairo, inside which were hiding a few hundred supporters of ousted president Mohamed Morsi. On screen, it seemed like it was the soldiers doing the terrorising. But for the lieutenant, the terrorists were the ones on the inside. They had bombs, the policeman said: they deserved what they got. And a mob of locals agreed. "The police and the people," chanted a crowd that had gathered to lynch the fugitives as they exited the mosque, "are one hand."

It was a wretched scene – but one that has become familiar in Egypt. Here was yet another symptom of the widespread hatred of the Muslim Brotherhood, which in the space of a year has gone from being Egypt's most powerful and most popular political group – to fugitives. Here, also, was brutal violence. A shortage of humanity. And above all: scant regard for the truth.

For those inside the mosque were not terrorists.An armed man may have later been filmed on top of the minaret, but the mosque's imam claimed access to it was controlled by security forces who had by that point breached parts of the building. For certain, when I visited the mosque the day before – shortly before troops surrounded it – it mainly housed doctors and corpses. After the police fired on nearby Morsi supporters – who had gathered to oppose not just the 3 July overthrow of the group's scion, Mohamed Morsi, but also the massacre of hundreds of Morsi backers last Wednesday – the mosque had been turned into a makeshift field hospital to deal with the fallout of Egypt's fourth mass killing in six weeks. "After they finish outside, [the police] will come in here," a doctor, Mahmoud el-Hout, said, "and arrest all the wounded." He wasn't far wrong, with only women and the dead later granted a safe exit.

Inside and outside the mosque, then, two parallel realities existed – much as they do across Egypt as a whole. The country is largely polarised between, on the one hand, those who believe their livelihoods and way of life were threatened under Morsi's incompetent and divisive presidency, and that his Muslim Brotherhood are violent traitors who must be destroyed – and, on the other, the Brotherhood and its dwindling Islamist allies, who remained camped in Cairo's streets after Morsi's ousting to defend his democratic legitimacy.

The split is not even. Millions marched on 30 June to call for Morsi's departure, and the vast majority of the country is firmly behind the army who deposed him days later. But perhaps less than 25% of Egyptians now have strong Islamist leanings, if Morsi's quarter of the vote in the first round of last year's presidential elections is anything to go by.

Here and there, activists prominent from the 2011 uprising that toppled Hosni Mubarak reject this binary division and express disgust at both the new fascistic army-backed regime and the authoritarianism of Morsi's own government. Army rule may be counter-revolutionary, they argue, accompanied as it is by a return to favour of figures, institutions and policies that buttressed the Mubarak era. But so too was Morsi, who tried to co-opt corrupt state institutions, rather than reform them – and who had little interest in building consensus, reigning in police brutality, or increasing social freedoms beyond those of his once-oppressed Islamist allies.

Yet few share this nuance. Most so-called liberals have thrown their lot in with the army, since the current environment has forced almost everyone into a with-or-against-us mindset. When Mohamed ElBaradei, Egypt's leading liberal politician, resigned as interim vice-president in protest at last Wednesday's massacre of Islamists, he was roundly attacked – even by former allies. Sayed Bedawy, leader of Egypt's oldest liberal party, told a breakfast show that he didn't want to call ElBaradei a traitor – before strongly implying that he was. "Mohamed ElBaradei is a son of a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)," summarised one woman in the mob outside the al-Fath mosque on Saturday.

Haranguing western media's lack of support for the army's crackdown, an otherwise measured psychologist recently told me that he felt Muslim Brotherhood members – many of whom have obediently remained in the streets on the say-so of their leaders – were suffering from some sort of collective psychosis. Yet if the Brothers are delusional, then it seems only fair to apply the same rhetoric to their opponents, who seem to be under an equally debilitating spell.

Spurred on by a jingoistic and uninquiring media (some Egyptian television presenters cried with joy on air the day Morsi was overthrown) much of Egyptian society is convinced that the former president's supporters are wholly a terrorist force bent on making Egypt part of some wider Islamic state. "We are not against any protesters – but we are against terrorists. We have a war with terrorists," says Mohamed Khamis, a spokesman for Tamarod, the grassroots campaign that successfully encouraged millions to march against Morsi in June.

Khamis said he accompanied the police last Wednesday, when security forces murdered hundreds at two six-week-old pro-Morsi campsites. "We asked the police officers to shoot them with pistols and the police officers refused to shoot them," Khamis counter-claimed. "Really, that was what happened. So I am surprised people died. How come so many people died then? I think it was the Brotherhood who killed them – not the army or police."

But while the Brotherhood is no stranger to violence – not least during clashes last December outside the presidential palace when Brotherhood members attacked anti-Morsi protesters – their recent involvement in acts of aggression, to be fair, remains unproved. Certainly, jihadi insurgents outside the Brotherhood's command – but nevertheless angered by Morsi's removal – have mounted a terrorist campaign in the lawless Sinai peninsula during the past six weeks. Twenty-five police conscripts were murdered in cold blood by Sinai insurgents on Monday. Undeniably, Morsi sympathisers of some form have attacked dozens of police stations since Wednesday's massacre – and desecrated at least 30 Christian churches, following prolonged sectarian incitement from some Morsi supporters at Brotherhood-led sit-ins over the past month. And if the crackdown against the Brotherhood and its allies continues, it is hard to see how more extremist violence can be avoided.

But the central charges – that most Brotherhood supporters are violent, that their two huge protest camps were simply overgrown terrorist cells, and that their brutal suppression was justified and even restrained – are not supported by facts. My experience during six weeks of reporting at Rabaa al-Adawiya in Cairo suggested the vast majority of protesters there – including many women and children – were peaceful. Many may have failed to face up to Morsi's own incompetence and autocratic governance, and some may have turned too blind an eye to sectarian attacks recently completed in their name. Others have actively incited them. On the day of the coup, an imam from Minya, in southern (or "Upper") Egypt, ominously said backstage at Rabaa: "It's going to be a civil war – and it's going to be very bad in particular for the church in Upper Egypt, because everyone knows they have spearheaded this campaign against the Islamic project." Anti-Morsi sentiment stems from both Muslims and Christians, but some members of the Brotherhood have disgracefully scapegoated and attacked the latter.

But many Rabaa protesters have simple, sincere reasons for their anger: they are upset at the theft of their votes, and fearful of a return to the anti-Islamist oppression of the Mubarak era. "We all voted for democracy," housewife Aza Galal told me last week, six-year-old son Saif in tow. "And then, because some people gathered in Tahrir Square [on 30 June], they put our votes in the rubbish bins." Morsi's government hardly promoted the wider democratic values on which a successful democracy relies – but Galal's anger is understandable: Morsi or his allies won five consecutive votes between 2011 and 2012.

"If we leave the square, it will be worse than the 90s," added Suzanne Abdel Qadir, referring to Mubarak's treatment of Islamists. "We're back to the days of oppression under Mubarak. If we go home, then the fight is over."

The pro-regime propaganda comes right from the top. On Sunday, Egypt's state information service published a public memorandum to foreign correspondents in Egypt, rebuking western media for failing to acknowledge that the 3 July coup reflected the will of the people, and for being overly sympathetic to the Brotherhood – apparently unable to distinguish between support for Morsi's disastrous and autocratic presidency, and criticism for the flagrant human rights abuses of his successors. Among many other false claims, it justified the siege of two mosques used by pro-Morsi doctors last week to house, respectively, a makeshift morgue and a field hospital – on the grounds that they had, in fact, harboured terrorists.

As one journalist noted, such claims would have been amusing had they not further endangered the lives of foreign journalists in Egypt (several of whom have been either assaulted, detained, or even killed last week while trying to cover Egyptian news) – and had they not flown in the face of the truth. At the Iman mosque, where hundreds of dead bodies were taken from the site of one of the massacres on Thursday, there were no insurgents – just corpses. Filling the floor of the mosque in its entirety, many of them had already begun to rot, and one was so badly burnt that it looked less like a body and more like a blackened tree stump. Doctors said it was the remains of a boy in his early teens – and an old woman squatted beside it in the belief it was her lost relative. But only its sunken eye-sockets and internal organs identified the corpse as that of a human.

The next day, at the al-Fath mosque, there were again no obvious terrorists, but simply unarmed and injured protesters, many of whom were bleeding to death. One man, Mohamed Said, was carried in, barely conscious – a gunshot wound to his back – and leant against a pillar. Then his head slumped, and doctors rolled his eyelids shut.

Egypt has been awash with cruelty – from the desecration of Christian churches by Islamists, to the burning of corpses at Rabaa. But perhaps the most heartbreaking sight has been the street outside the Zeinhom morgue, Cairo's main mortuary. Due to the massacres, morgue staff, already severely stretched, struggle to deal with the unprecedented number of bodies arriving for autopsies. As a result, dozens of grieving families have clogged the street outside, their dead relatives rotting in the heat. A curfew is in place in Cairo, but families dare not leave the queue until their relatives are admitted to the morgue – decomposing though they may be. "Curse the curfew," said Atef Fatih, whose brother was shot dead last week. "We don't care about it. We will wait until they let the body inside."

Some pile the coffins high with slabs of ice to stop the rot. But the ice melts fast, leaving the ground a sludgy mess of mud, blood and corpses. To add to the injustice, many families report that the police have refused to sign off their corpses as murder. Humanity and truth are in short supply.

And nor are they the only virtues to have been sacrificed in Egypt. So too have logic and common sense. Amid the rhetoric about Islamic terrorism, few seem to recognise that most of the terrorising has in fact come from the state. The government justifies the state-sponsored violence as a necessary step towards avoiding civil war. But it does not seem to realise that its provocative brutality is the thing that makes such a horrific outcome more likely – further alienating and radicalising Islamists, and pushing some towards violence. (One commentator suggests that this may, in fact, be the state's desired outcome – a heightening of extremist violence, which gives the government more cover to increase their powers.) Similarly, few seem to have seen the irony in appointing a new cabinet whose primary objective is to fix Egypt's economy, but which has since given its full backing to the state massacres that have further frightened away the very investors on which a revived economy would depend.

With the state seemingly unwilling to reign in its violence, the Brotherhood unlikely to curtail its street presence, and unwilling or unable to prevent its allies and harder-line followers from violence, the future looks utterly bleak. Here and there, there are moments of fleeting dark humour. Egypt's leading private broadsheet, al-Masry al-Youm, published last week an interview with a Republican "senator", one Maurice Bonamigo, a man very approving of Egypt's controversial new domestic direction – but one who also sadly later emerged to have never been elected to higher office.

There have also been moments of unexpected personal kindness. They range from the soldier photographed aiding a grieving woman during last Wednesday's massacres to the police lieutenant who, putting his machine gun to one side and switching off his television, handed me a carton of guava juice – bringing to an end a two-hour-long detention at the hands of both police officers and an angry mob of vigilantes. "You are welcome in Egypt," the lieutenant said, and smiled.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/20/egypts-cruellest-week-muslim-brotherhood

In a rush as I have a day of child minding but one sentence I wanted to reference again and can't find it. Basically some people have a difficulty in differentiating between the problems of Morsi politics and the brutality and lack of human rights of the coup.

moon · Aug 21, 2013

Good post, alexa. Intelligent diplomacy.
As a rule of thumb, anything which is good for neoZionist Israel is bad for the Middle East and vice versa. A weak Egypt, a weak Syria, Lebanon, Libya- all these catastrophes strengthen the US/Zionist power base. Worse, they pave the way for further war, Iran being in the sights of their military-industrial motivators. The only scenario which I can see which will halt the pro-Zionist war machine is for Russia or China, maybe both, to step up to the crease and say ' No ' . The short-sighted weaklings in Egypt, however, just sold themselves as spear-carriers to the Judeo-christian invaders. It's a set-back for justice, world peace and the rule of law, just as the election of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was a set-back for the enemies of Islam. There should be no effort spared in shoring up the next two pressure points of Syria and Lebanon. The war is on if they fall.

Meanwhile, a spot of bother for Alice in Washington-

“Off with her head! ”

trout mask replica · Aug 21, 2013

moon said: ↑

Good post, alexa. Intelligent diplomacy.
As a rule of thumb, anything which is good for neoZionist Israel is bad for the Middle East and vice versa. A weak Egypt, a weak Syria, Lebanon, Libya- all these catastrophes strengthen the US/Zionist power base. Worse, they pave the way for further war, Iran being in the sights of their military-industrial motivators. The only scenario which I can see which will halt the pro-Zionist war machine is for Russia or China, maybe both, to step up to the crease and say ' No ' . The short-sighted weaklings in Egypt, however, just sold themselves as spear-carriers to the Judeo-christian invaders. It's a set-back for justice, world peace and the rule of law, just as the election of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was a set-back for the enemies of Islam. There should be no effort spared in shoring up the next two pressure points of Syria and Lebanon. The war is on if they fall.

Meanwhile, a spot of bother for Alice in Washington-

“Off with her head! ”
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An exceptional post, concise, lucid and spot on.

Abu Sina · Aug 21, 2013

Prediction
Next Egyptian President

Hamdeen Sabahi or General Al Sisi

moon · Aug 21, 2013

trout mask replica said: ↑

An exceptional post, concise, lucid and spot on.
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alexa is generally quite stimulating You too, old chap- and a brave band of others. We are all targets of the surveillance robots though and I'm out of here unless they scrap the ban on proxies. It's under debate.

Abu Sina · Aug 21, 2013

alexa said: ↑

I felt unsure when when a report came in that Morsi had made agreement to all the conditions, except he would stay on as President and would arrange prompt elections rather than stepping down and going into exile. At that point it showed that Morsi was going regarding to anything he did. I stll stayed open to it but had doubts.
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seriously!!!

even after all this time and you are still repeating this old dead ikhwan line?

Gilos · Aug 21, 2013

moon said: ↑

Good post, alexa. Intelligent diplomacy.
As a rule of thumb, anything which is good for neoZionist Israel is bad for the Middle East and vice versa. A weak Egypt, a weak Syria, Lebanon, Libya- all these catastrophes strengthen the US/Zionist power base.]
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How so ? what's to gain by a lawless border and Jihadist stronghold in Sinai ?

Isreal main problem is the defense budget, most of the annual budget goes to defence on expence of education, social services, welfare etc', the peace agreement is supposed to cut throu defence expense to the benefit of Israel, how does your claim assist in that ?

Abu Sina · Aug 21, 2013

October 1997 Luxor

Ikhwan slaughter 52 Swiss German Japanese British tourists visiting Hateshpsut Temple in Luxor

Few months ago the terrorist who led them in the attack was made the Governor of Luxor by Morsi and his cabinet.

One of the many things that Egyptians could no longer tolerate when they asked Army to intervene and remove Morsi and Ikhwan 30th June 2013

Dusty1000 · Aug 21, 2013

Abu Sina said: ↑

seriously!!!

even after all this time and you are still repeating this old dead ikhwan line?
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I heard that Morsi issued a decree calling for elections last April, but the court of Mubarak-era judges, that had ruled the 2011 elections to be ''unconstitutional,'' annulled Morsi's decree.

Is that not correct?

Abu Sina said: ↑

why don't all 3 of you grow beards and head down to Raba'a
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Abu, these are people you normally agree with, on topics such as Israel and US imperialism.

You would normally be opposed to whatever Israel wants, and also to Saudi influence.

Yet here you are, supporting the military rulers of your own country that both Israel and the Wahhabi police state supports, and those who are agreeing with you are those with whom you would normally disagree.

Dusty

Abu Sina · Aug 21, 2013

A message to the world from the children of Egypt

in English
[video=youtube;XJqVCnPD-_M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJqVCnPD-_M[/video]

Gilos · Aug 21, 2013

Dusty1000 said: ↑

I heard that Morsi issued a decree calling for elections last April, but the court of Mubarak-era judges, that had ruled the 2011 elections to be ''unconstitutional,'' annulled Morsi's decree.

Is that not correct?

Abu, these are people you normally agree with, on topics such as Israel and US imperialism.

You would normally be opposed to whatever Israel wants, and also to Saudi influence.

Yet here you are, supporting the military rulers of your own country that both Israel and the Wahhabi police state supports, and those who are agreeing with you are those with whom you would normally disagree.

Dusty
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Israel had no problem with Morsi, he didnt do anything to harm Israel, he was even more efficient than Mubarak guarding the Gazan border.

Assad - Rebels, same thing.

Dusty1000 · Aug 21, 2013

Gilos said: ↑

Israel had no problem with Morsi, he didnt do anything to harm Israel, he was even more efficient than Mubarak guarding the Gazan border.
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That's besides the point.

“I think that the whole world should support Sisi ” Ehud Barak, a former prime minister and defense minister of Israel, said on CNN’s “Fareed Zakaria GPS” just days before the violent crackdown.

http://jamiat.org.za/blog/israel-rallies-global-support-for-egyptian-military-regime/
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Assad - Rebels, same thing.
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Not really. The ''rebels'' in Egypt have deposed the government, whereas the ''rebels'' in Syria are still attempting to do so.

Abu Sina · Aug 21, 2013

Dusty1000 said: ↑

I heard that Morsi issued a decree calling for elections last April, but the court of Mubarak-era judges, that had ruled the 2011 elections to be ''unconstitutional,'' annulled Morsi's decree.

Is that not correct?
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Morsi wanted his Islamist controlled parliament re instated
The court dissolved it because it was not constitutional and there was a problem with the list system

Abu, these are people you normally agree with, on topics such as Israel and US imperialism.

You would normally be opposed to whatever Israel wants, and also to Saudi influence.

Yet here you are, supporting the military rulers of your own country that both Israel and the Wahhabi police state supports, and those who are agreeing with you are those with whom you would normally disagree.

Dusty
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Just because I agree with them on some things does not mean I am a robot and agree with everything they say.
I speak as an Egyptian who lives in Egypt and know what is going on.
They speak as Ikhwan who just repeat the same lines of the Murshid over and over again.

It's bad enough listening to them here in Egypt never mind on PF talking nonsense

I have the ability to change my views when I see something not right and will admit I was wrong. I wanted to give Morsi a chance even though I am not supporter of Ikhwan BUT we see now their clear agenda and I will not support that.
If they love Ikhwan so much then they should start a petition and ask their own governments to give them visas and let them move in next door to them . AND you can bet that none of the three here have ever been to Gaza, or Palestine or fought or shed one drop of blood for the Palestinians because it is easy to sit typing in your salon thousands of miles away from it all YES so BRAVE!!! and they dare to tell me the Egyptian whose families are in graves because of Balfour that I am a traitor!!!

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Gilos said: ↑

Israel had no problem with Morsi, he didnt do anything to harm Israel, he was even more efficient than Mubarak guarding the Gazan border.

Assad - Rebels, same thing.
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yes as the Murshid said

He could stop the attacks in Sinai in one hour if they release Morsi so it is obvious who controls the terrorists in Sinai

Gilos · Aug 21, 2013

Dusty1000 said: ↑

That's besides the point..
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Im not denying that, Israel tried to lobby the revolution to the west as well, more than anything Egypt needs to resume control over itself, chaos left unattended is not good for anyone,

Dusty1000 · Aug 21, 2013

Abu Sina said: ↑

Morsi wanted his Islamist controlled parliament re instated
The court dissolved it because it was not constitutional and there was a problem with the list system
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When the court ruled the 2011 elections to have been unconstitutional, they stated that the government could remain in place until new elections were held.

Is that not correct?

Morsi issued a decree calling for new elections back in April, but the court annulled the decree.

Is that not also correct?

Just because I agree with them on some things does not mean I am a robot and agree with everything they say.
I speak as an Egyptian who lives in Egypt and know what is going on.
They speak as Ikhwan who just repeat the same lines of the Murshid over and over again.

It's bad enough listening to them here in Egypt never mind on PF talking nonsense

I have the ability to change my views when I see something not right and will admit I was wrong. I wanted to give Morsi a chance even though I am not supporter of Ikhwan BUT we see now their clear agenda and I will not support that.
If they love Ikhwan so much then they should start a petition and ask their own governments to give them visas and let them move in next door to them .
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I would have no objections to the Muslim Brotherhood contesting elections in my country, but I doubt they would have much luck.

It appears to me that just as many Israelis, for example, have been fooled into thinking that Israel's rulers are right and their opponents are wrong, by their own state and media propaganda, the same seems to have happened to many Egyptians WRT their own country, unfortunately.

yes as the Murshid said

He could stop the attacks in Sinai in one hour if they release Morsi so it is obvious who controls the terrorists in Sinai
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I don't believe he did. AFAIK he said that ''the attacks would stop'' if Morsi was released.

Abu Sina · Aug 21, 2013

All you need to know in 7 minutes on why Egyptians are fighting Morsi and Ikhwan

It's all here if you are interested to know the truth and debate about Ikhwan

[video=youtube;4pfQjtGsyys]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4pfQjtGsyys#t=44[/video]

Abu Sina · Aug 21, 2013

Dusty1000 said: ↑

When the court ruled the 2011 elections to have been unconstitutional, they stated that the government could remain in place until new elections were held.

Is that not correct?
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yes

Morsi issued a decree calling for new elections back in April, but the court annulled the decree.

Is that not also correct?
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yes BUT as I said if the elections went ahead the ikhwan would have won again because the list system had to be changed

Dusty1000 · Aug 21, 2013

Abu Sina said: ↑

yes

yes BUT as I said if the elections went ahead the ikhwan would have won again because the list system had to be changed
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How could they have won if most Egyptians would have voted for someone else?

Some electoral systems favour smaller parties, while others favour bigger parties.

But big parties only become big parties, if lots of people vote for them.

Dusty

Talon · Aug 21, 2013

allegoricalfact said: ↑

Because I know we can't look at anything in isolation. It is true that Egypt is in a lock down and it is true that it is a Military lock down but why? Is it as others of my Isles think simply because the Military want back their old controls or is it bigger than that .............. I think it is bigger than that, they don't. Either way it isn't pretty and either way we are not blameless.

The Arab Spring was never going to have a five minute fairy story happy ending. I do not believe that it is over though but they could not, they just could not, what ever their reasons, let Fundis take root in Egypt. I also believe we wanted them in power as we want the Fundis causing havoc all over the Middle East ........................ Was it all a purposeful gamble ? I don't know, Is it all being manipulated by us ? Not anymore I don't think.
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There's a lot going on here, and I agree that there are bigger, deeply profound things going on in the Middle East that transcends mere politics. I can't help but note the similarity between what is happening in the ME today and what happened in Europe after Gutenberg's invention, and I'm talking about the impact of communications revolutions on individuals and societies.

There's another thing going on that I've only seen SyrianGirl mention and that's the Muslim Brotherhood's relationship to the Arab Spring. Several months before the Arab Spring broke out, Barry Rubin noted that the leader of the Ikhwan, Muhammad Badi, issued a call to action, and lo and behold, the Arab Spring broke out shortly thereafter:

http://www.gloria-center.org/2010/10/muslim-brotherhood-declares-war-on-america/

In fact, there's so much going on it's enough to make your head swim. I thought Middle Eastern politics were ridiculously complex before all this started unfolding.

I think we have simply gone to far and they are taking back The Power. To a huge extent we are out, they are finally kicking us out and we might even be forced to have to deal in a fairer trading World.
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I'm cool with that.

What ever this is bigger than most are seeing at the mo and the consequences to all of us will be massive.
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No question about that. Vive la change...
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