For a change, how about an actual and honest discussion of Noah's Ark-

It would be more teachable, IMO, if all things on earth vanished in a fraction of a second except what God wanted left that he put on an ark.

That would make more people believe.


Out of curiosity, what did it teach all those things that died? What did it teach most all the asians we have today? Or anyone? God can make it rain and kill off the planet if he chooses?

 

If it's beyond reason, what basis is there for something other than pure faith.
Reason is what makes human, human. It's how things get discovered.
We'd still be dragging women around by the hair if we had to lock our thinking to ancient rules and logic.

 

But they're valid questions. Because the story is unbelievable as written. If there aren't answers, so be it, then it just remains a mythical story that grew and grew into an enormous legend.
Don't pretend it actually happened unless you can explain the unexplainable.
You can even say God can do anything, because that really is the only explanation.

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So if it's not from a fraud or an apologetic christian website, it won't count?

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There are none here making claims.
There are few in the USA, trying to tell others how they have to live.

 

I think we agree on the non-historicity of a world-wide flood...or the logistical even logical possibility of a 450 foot long boat surviving 3 months afloat with every animal species on board, tended to by 8 people.

Clearly, belief in the "historicity" of the ENTIRE Old Testament is vital to some.

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True...why wouldn't God just make it so the animals on the Ark didn't eat AT ALL?

(BTW, look for that argument some day from a Literalist. )

 

Or he could make it so that all the animals breathed water, negating the need for an Ark. But with all the crap that had to fit in the Ark when its dimensions were so small, I think I know the name of the boat: the S.S. Tardis.

 

Perhaps this will help shed some light on these clearly historical and in no way made-up events:

Gilgamish unto him spake, to Uta-Napishtim the Distant:
"Uta-Napishtim, upon thee I gaze, (yet) in no wise thy presence
Strange is, (for) thou art like me, and in no wise different art thou;
5.Thou art like me; (yea) a stomach for fighting doth make thee consummate,
[Aye, and to rest (?)] on thy back thou dost lie. [O tell me (?)], how couldst thou
Stand in th’ Assemblage of Gods to petition for life (everlasting)?"

Uta-Napishtim (addressing him thus) unto Gilgamish answer'd:
"Gilgamish, I unto thee will discover the (whole) hidden story,
10.Aye, and the rede of the Gods will I tell thee.
The City Shurippak —
(O ’tis) a city thou knowest!—is set [on the marge] of Euphrates,
Old is this city, with gods in its midst. (Now), the great gods a deluge
Purposed to bring: . . . . . . there was Anu, their sire; their adviser
Warrior Enlil; Ninurta 2, their herald; their leader(?) Ennugi;
Nin-igi-azag—’tis Ea—, (albeit) conspirator with them,
20.Unto a reed-hut their counsel betray’d he: "O Reed-hut, O Reed-hut!
Wall, wall! Hearken, O Reed-hut, consider, O Wall! O thou Mortal,
Thou of Shurippak, thou scion of Ubara-Tutu, a dwelling
25.Pull down, (and) fashion a vessel (therewith); abandon possessions,
Life do thou seek, (and) thy hoard disregard, and save life; every creature
Make to embark in the vessel. The vessel, which thou art to fashion,
30.Apt be its measure; its beam and its length be in due correspondence,
(Then) [on] the deep do thou launch it." And I—sooth, I apprehending,
(This wise) to Ea, my lord, did I speak: '[See], Lord, what thou sayest
35.Thus, do I honour, I'll do—(but) to city, to people, and elders
Am I, forsooth, to explain?' (Then) Ea made answer in speaking,
Saying to me—me, his henchman!—'Thou mortal, shalt speak to them this wise:
"’Tis me alone (?) whom Enlil so hateth that I in your city
40.No (more) may dwell, nor turn my face unto the land which is Enlil's.
[I will go] down to the Deep, (there) dwelling with Ea, my [liege] lord,
(Wherefore) [on] you will he shower down plenty, yea, fowl [in great number(?)],
45.Booty of fish . . . . [and big] the harvest.
. . . . . . . . causing a plentiful rainfall (?) to come down upon you."

[(Then) when something] of morning had dawn’d . . . .

(Five lines mutilated).

55.Pitch did the children 4 provide, (while) the strong brought [all] that was needful.
(Then) on the fifth day (after) I laid out the 5 shape (of my vessel),
Ten gar each was the height of her sides, in accord with her planning(?),
Ten gar to match was the size of her deck (?), and the shape of the forepart (?)

Did I lay down, (and) the same did I fashion; (aye), six times cross-pinn’d her,
Sevenfold did I divide her . . . ., divided her inwards
Ninefold: hammer’d the caulking within her, (and) found me a quant-pole,
65.(All) that was needful I added; the hull with six 1 shar of bitumen
Smear’d I, (and) three shar of pitch [did I smear] on the inside; some people,
Bearing a vessel of grease, three shar of it brought (me); (and) one shar
(Out of this) grease did I leave, which the tackling (?) consumed; (and) the boatman
70.Two shar of grease stow’d away; (yea), beeves for the . . . I slaughter’d,
Each day lambs did I slay: mead, beer, oil, wine, too, the workmen
[Drank] as though they were water, and made a great feast like the New Year,

(Five mutilated lines "I added salve for the hand(s)," "the vessel was finish’d . . . Shamash the great." "was difficult," " . . ? I caused to bring above and below," "two-thirds of it"):
________________________________

80.[All I possess’d I] laded aboard her; the silver I laded
All I possess'd; gold, all I possess’d I laded aboard her,
All I possess’d of the seed of all living [I laded aboard] her.
Into the ship I embark’d all my kindred and family (with me),
85.Cattle (and) beasts of the field (and) all handicraftsmen embarking.
(Then) decreed Shamash the hour: " . . . . (?)
Shall in the night let a plentiful rainfall(?) pour down . . . .
(Then) do thou enter the vessel, and (straightway) shut down thy hatchway."
90. Came (then) that hour (appointed), . . . . . . (?)
Did in the night let a plentiful rainfall(?) pour down . . . . (?)
View’d I the aspect of day: to look on the day bore a horror,
(Wherefore) I enter’d the vessel, and (straightway) shut down my hatchway,
(So, too) to shut down the vessel to Puzur-Amurri (?), the boatman,
95.Did I deliver the poop (of the ship), besides its equipment.
________________________________

(Then), when something of dawn had appear’d, from out the horizon
Rose a cloud darkling; (lo), Adad (the storm-god) was rumbling within it,
100.Nabu and Sharru were leading the vanguard, and coming as heralds
Over the hills and the levels: (then) Irragal wrench’d out the bollards;
Havoc Ninurta let loose as he came, th’ Anunnaki their torches
105.Brandish’d, and shrivell’d the land with their flames; desolation from Adad
Stretch’d to (high) Heaven, (and) all that was bright was turn’d into darkness.

(Four lines mutilated "the land like . . .," "for one day the st[orm] . . ., " "fiercely blew . . . . " "like a battle . . . ").

Nor could a brother distinguish his brother; from heaven were mortals
Not to be spied. O, were stricken with terror the gods at the Deluge,
Fleeing, they rose to the Heaven of Anu, and crouch’d in the outskirts,
115.Cow 'ring like curs were the gods (while) like to a woman in travail
Ishtar did cry, she shrieking aloud, (e’en) the sweet-spoken Lady
(She of the gods): 'May that day turn to dust, because I spake evil
120.(There) in th’ Assemblage of Gods! O, how could I utter (such) evil
(There) in the Assemblage of Gods, (so) to blot out my people, ordaining
Havoc! Sooth, then, am I to give birth, unto (these) mine own people
Only to glut (with their bodies) the Sea as though they were fish-spawn?'
125.Gods—Anunnaki—wept with her, the gods were sitting (all) humbled,
(Aye), in (their) weeping, (and) closed were their lips amid(?)]the Assemblage.
Six days, a 1 se’nnight the hurricane, deluge, (and) tempest continued
Sweeping the land: when the seventh day came, were quelléd the warfare,
130.Tempest (and) deluge which like to an army embattail’d were fighting.
Lull’d was the sea, (all) spent was the gale, assuaged was the deluge,
(So) did I look on the day; (lo), sound was (all) still’d; and all human
Back to (its) clay was return’d, and fen was level with roof-tree.
135.(Then) I open’d a hatchway, and down on my cheek stream’d the sunlight,
Bowing myself, I sat weeping, my tears o’er my cheek(s) overflowing,
Into the distance I gazed, to the furthest bounds of the Ocean,
140.Land was uprear’d at twelve (points), and the Ark on the Mountain of Nisir
Grounded; the Mountain of Nisir held fast, nor gave lease to her 2 shifting.
One day, (nay,) two, did Nisir hold fast, nor give lease to her shifting.
Three days, (nay), four, did Nisir hold fast, nor give lease to her shifting,
Five days, (nay,) six, did Nisir hold fast, nor give lease to her shifting.
145.(Then), when the seventh day dawn’d, I put forth a dove, and released (her),
(But) to and fro went the dove, and return’d (for) a resting-place was not.
150 (Then) I a swallow put forth and released; to and fro went the swallow,
She (too) return’d, (for) a resting-place was not; I put forth a raven,
Her, (too,) releasing; the raven went, too, and th’ abating of waters
Saw; and she ate as she waded (and) splash’d, (unto me) not returning.
155.Unto the four winds (of heaven) I freed (all the beasts), and an off’ring
Sacrificed, and a libation I pour’d on the peak of the mountain,
Twice seven flagons devoting, (and) sweet cane, (and) cedar, and myrtle,

...

From The Epic of Gilgamish, Tablet 11
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/eog/eog13.htm

Not only is the story an older parallel, but even the names are similar. Gilgamish (cp. Moses) and Ea (cp. Yahweh).

 

OK. Wiping out an entire planet. I haven't found any silver linings. And this from an almost life long, decades long christian.

 

MOD EDIT - Off Topic

Silver lining is that even when all is very bad,one morning a dove will come and the rains will recede.

 

MOD EDIT - Off Topic
Still no silver lining in killing most everything on the planet.

 

It's God and he is all powerful. Remember loaves and fishes and Jesus feeding the multitudes. Anything is possible in a work of fiction.

And of course there was the turning of water into wine which actually would be a useful skill.

 

I still haven't figured out what sins all those animals committed. Seems like an all powerful God could have been a little more accurate in targeting it's rage.

 

guess God's not powerful enough to only punish the naughty.....

 

The slaying of the first born pretty conclusively proved this along with the fact that God obviously expects moral behavior from humans that God was incompable of demonstrating in it's own behavior. The Bible is full of God's sins against humans.

 

They dehydrated them and then threw them into the water to rehydrate them as they were approaching the shallow end.

 

One of its kind means one specimen of felines, one specimen of canines, and so forth. Each specimen male and female. So, actually weren't many if you compare the population of their off springs after several generations.

Your calculations are based in today's climate, in today's degenerate status of humans, animals and plants.

There is no evolution process in living species but degenerate steps after each generation. The former horse used to have canines in males and females, used to have five digits, used to have aligned teeth, and more, while today's horse lacks of canines in females, is monodactyl, teeth are deformed, and so forth.

Degeneration implies losing characteristics on the long run, like the T-Rex which was a huge chicken with feathers which shows smaller arms disproportioned to the body, atrophied digits, which can be explained as a birth defect inherited from ancestors and passed to new off springs.

In Noah's days, animals passed to hibernate state. Food wasn't an issue. No Sun was seen for days and days, causing the cooling of the planet, and causing the ice era on earth as a further consequence.

Your reasoning based in today's status of species is completely irrelevant and superfluous.

I have said before that I live near a river. Erosion caused the water to flood an area with trees. These trees have been almost completely under water for more than a year, and survived. They finally died, but survived for long time.

Plants were weaker as well after the flood. The world changed as bad as the estimate of living hundreds of years to merely 120 years for humans. This is solid evidence that the biblical narrator knew more science than today's evolutionists.

The degenerate steps are clear and solid evidence.

Look,

1)- the older stars produced and recycled heavy elements.

2)- From them, the newer starts do not produce heavy elements anymore, but recycle them only. Newer stars produce metals.

3)- from here, planets do not produce neither recycle heavy elements, and recycle metals only.

You can see that the universe is in a continued decay.

The degenerate steps of living species in the world go in accord to the decay of the elements of the universe.

This is the best science ever, when physics and biology go in complete accord.

On the other hand, the theory of evolution -which started with the idea of inferior, simpler and worst species becoming superior, more complex and better species- is a complete contradiction of the fact that elements decay.

And, when you have a branch of science in disagreement with another one, then one must be false. In this case, the decay of elements is an observed fact, so the theory of evolution is false.

No, your questions are practically dumb because are not in agreement with the former era, the era of Noah.

I'm answering your out of touch with reality questions.

Now,. it's your turn to vindicate yourself asking relevant questions.

 

So one 'kind' of feline (say Felidae) developed into tigers, lions, lynx and the household moggy in several generations?

Also, why aren't there any native cats in Australia and why are kangaroos only found in Australia? Why did kangaroos make their way only to Australia after the ark hit land and not to Scandinavia or South America?

 

Wonder how long it will take to make this story up.
I notice with all his make believe, no link to the source of the information.
Weird how 2 feline, in just a couple thousand years became the tiger, lions, lynx, jaguar, etc.
All post flood, after the time span/frame of the world changed.

 

MOD EDIT - Off Topic

About the current location of the different species.

By natural instinct, animals group themselves and look for a place to live together. Some species won't mind sharing their territory, however, other species prefer to set apart from the rest.

Reading the Bible, there is not suggestion in Genesis that the part that is land in the globe was formed of continents. The land in Noah's times was a huge unique continent to which many call it "Pangaea".

The Bible narrates the historical beginning saying that no rain happened yet on earth, but that vapor came from underground, a vapor which plants used to survive. It also mentions that in this huge sole continent, rivers came out from underground.

This is pure history and pure science. This is how the earth was in the past. No scientist denies that the current continents formed a unique one in the past. So, in this aspect science is in complete agreement with the biblical narration.

The Bible explains that the worldwide deluge happened when "the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

This is telling you that a huge crack (or a few cracks) was made in the sole continent by cause of the pressure of the hot water from underground. The natural cycle of vapors going up, condensation and rain happened for the first time on earth.

Science is also in complete agreement with this kind of phenomenon as well.

The ark protected several species from extinction. The mountains before the flood weren't the same than today's mountains. So, we can't estimate how high the water reached over the original sea level. Any estimate given by religious and scientific sources will be no more than conjectures.

After the ark rested on land over a mountain, according to the Bible, the different species were released.

---By the way, if you go to Mount Ararat, you will find out that rocks are continually coming down from the high areas. This mount still "growing up", so, the current altitude of this mountain is well higher than the altitude of this Mount Ararat in Noah's time.
Even the chains of mountains we see today in the different continents didn't exist in Noah's time, because these mountains were caused by the fast movement of the new lands going away from each other.---

The Continent still was a sole land. Species separated themselves and went to different places. Some generations happened before the division of the sole continent.

According to the Bible, the son of Noah called Shem had children, one of them called Arphax. Arphax had children, one of them called Eber. Eber had children, one of them called Peleg, and the Bible explains: "for in his days was the earth divided..."

The separation of the huge sole continent into parts caused that some species were trapped in the different new lands.

Here is why, you see a certain species not found in other lands, and why as well, some similar species are found sharing land with other species in the different continents.

 

Pangea began to break apart 100 million years ago.. Noah wasn't around.

 

The evolution of dogs is quite easy to explain as canis lupus is the supposed common ancestor of all dogs (thanks to human intervention), what is the common ancestor of all cats? What about slow moving animals like snails and slugs? Who are their common ancestor and how long did it take for then to 'repopulate' the earth?

Did kangaroos originally come from Australia (before the flood) or did they come from say Scandinavia, then hopped to Australia after the ark made landfall.

You need to do better than copying and pasting some gaff from a creationist website.

Thanks Margot.

 

But seriously, are you going to back any of those assertions up? You know, with links or something? In particular, how do you explain, "This is telling you that a huge crack (or a few cracks) was made in the sole continent by cause of the pressure of the hot water from underground. The natural cycle of vapors going up, condensation and rain happened for the first time on earth. Science is also in complete agreement with this kind of phenomenon as well."

I challenge you to provide a link from any actual scientist who agrees with this. Even if we were to fudge the timeline by millions of years so that Noah was around at the time of Pangea (which no scientist would do), there is still the problem that while there was only one big landmass, the hypothetical water under it was not the only water. THE REST OF THE EARTH WAS OCEAN. So there is no possible way that rain from evaporated ocean water had not already been occurring.

 

All this post flood. 4500 yrs ago.

 

And not even an original myth. Just a recycle of an earlier Mesopotamian Myth.

 

Yeah,, Christianity was good at recycling then claiming it for its own.